Modern Orthodox people (and sometimes Popa) are stupid

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  • #1041212
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I was thinking about this thread during the haftorah today. I decided that Popa’s original suggestion was correct – the kid wasn’t dead. The Gemara relates that when Chizkiyahu was sick, he asked H’ to heal him based on a kal vachomer: ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????. Now if the kid had actually died then Chizkiyahu would have a kal vachomer even if his ??? ??? hadn’t done anything more than the Shunamite, beacause he was only asking to be healed, not to be resurrected. So the fact that he mentioned ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? that he was asking for the same intervention that the Shunamite got.

    #1041213
    Shalom
    Member

    @ Patur: Perhaps Chizkiyahu was deathly ill (i,e, a treifa/goses) and he needed the same resurrection as the kid did.

    #1041214
    Matan1
    Participant

    The Ralbag went great lengths to explain how many of the miracles in Tanach were just natural occurrences. They way it was explained to me, God prefers to work within the system of rules that he created. God doesn’t like breaking the rules of physics. At least not too much.

    #1041215
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    So in other words the whole world should be healed because that is less than ressurection?

    #1041216
    Randomex
    Member

    (I hardly looked at the first page of this thread.)

    PAA:

    The Gemara relates that when Chizkiyahu was sick, he asked H’ to heal him based on a kal vachomer: ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????. Now if the kid had actually died then Chizkiyahu would have a kal vachomer even if his ??? ??? hadn’t done anything more than the Shunamite, beacause he was only asking to be healed, not to be resurrected.”

    What exactly would that kal vachomer be?

    “If you resurrected her son, you can surely heal me?”

    That’s not a kal vachomer. A kal vachomer is as follows: When we see that something is done in a situation where there is little reason for it, then in a situation where there is more reason for it, all the more so should it be done! But “you have done a greater thing” is not a reason that “you should do a lesser thing” – it is merely proof that you are capabable of the lesser thing.

    #1041217
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The truth is I was posting somewhat in jest.

    But the kal vachomer is that if building a wall is good enough to be rewarded with resurrection, then it is certainly enough to be rewarded with mere healing.

    #1041219
    mobico
    Participant

    The Pasuk had already stated earlier “va’Yamos”. Then Elisha had Geichazi go and check if he was really dead, or maybe he had “woken up”. When the Pasuk stresses that Elisha entered and saw him dead and cold, the whole point is l’Afukei PBA’s Hava Amina.

    #1041220
    Randomex
    Member

    PAA:

    You’re right. But, given that his grandfather had

    done more, what else could he have said?

    #1041221
    Randomex
    Member

    (PAA:

    I had read “even if his ??? ??? hadn’t done anything” in place of “even if his ??? ??? hadn’t done anything more than the Shunamis.”)

    #1041222
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It doesn’t matter whether the world actually exists or not.

    #1041223
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    PAA:

    I had read “even if his ??? ??? hadn’t done anything” in place of “even if his ??? ??? hadn’t done anything more than the Shunamis.”

    Does that affect your previous question?

    #1041224
    Randomex
    Member

    PAA:

    Yes. (If his grandfather hadn’t done anything,

    there’d be no second side to apply the first to.)

    #1041225
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I’m referring to this question:

    But, given that his grandfather had

    done more, what else could he have said?

    Presumably you can still ask it even after your clarification.

    #1041226
    Randomex
    Member

    Yes, I can and do. (Your use of the word “previous” caused

    me to think you were referring to my first question, as my

    third post had not been a question, that it should cause

    the second question to be a previous one. Perhaps you

    meant “previous post.”)

    #1041227
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I didn’t mean “previous post” – the question was not in your previous post. I probably should have just written “question” without “previous”.

    #1041228
    Randomex
    Member

    PAA:

    It was in my previous post. My post before the one you were responding

    to was in fact the one with the question. Now, what about the question itself?

    #1041229
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I was assuming that “previous post” would refer to the one I was responding to. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that.

    #1041230
    Randomex
    Member

    PAA:

    If “previous post” meant the post one was actually

    responding to, which post would be the non-previous one?

    Again, what about the question itself?

    #1041231
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Randomex:

    It doesn’t specifically refer to the post being responded to. It refers to the most recent post.

    As for the actual question:

    Chizkiyahu said ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???. Why didn’t he say ??? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????

    Presumably then, the kal vachomer is from the Shunamite as opposed to from the kid. If that is the case then we have a problem – by the Shunamite, the one who did the good deed was the one who got helped whereas by Chizkiyahu, the one getting helped was not the one doing the good deed. So the kal vachomer is no good. Unless you say that the good deed of King Solomon was so much greater than the good deed of the Shunamite that it outweighed the fact that it wasn’t Chizkiyahu himself who had done it. But we don’t usually make kal vachomer’s like that. (Perhaps one could say that Chizkiyahu wasn’t using the actual middah of kal vachomer, inasmuch as he was just making an argument.)

    I know this didn’t actually address the question.

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