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Joseph, some people advised the Jews to leave very early on, when there were still places for them to go. These people were condemned by many Rabbanim.
Joseph, the spiritual dangers most definitely did not exceed the physical benefit. Those people died in horrible circumstances. There was no way to predict how they would have lived their lives had they emigrated. Wheter or not they had the opportunity–the advice was not to emigrate–and that advice was given to some few who did have the opportunity.
Sorry–but if you think that that was a correct decision to give that advice– I just cannot possibly convey the degree of my disagreement.
Of course, I do not think that that advice was given because of evil intent. But it was a horrible mistake in judgment (which can happen to anyone, and it implies no disrespect). Again, these were unprecedented times, and those of us who are now alive cannot possibly understand what our parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters, etc. went through. Blaming our own for the atrocities committed by the bnai belial is an evil act in and of itself. I brought this up originally in this thread to make a point to those who accuse the Zionists of complicity with the nazis–that you can take any quote out of context, and the priority for those who could rescue people was to rescue their own first. Any and all of us can be accused of the same thing–that does not make anybody complicit with the nazis. We are all human, and to judge how people act under those circumstances is beyond human justice. For that, we have a Dayan Emet. In my opinion, until that Dayan makes His judgments known to us, it is better to have a care as to how we refer to our fellow Jews.
feif un and starwolf: those philanthropists whose aid Rav Aaron Kotler and other Roshei Yeshivos enlisted in starting their mosdos were hardly MO. (which arguably didn’t exist at the time) they were conservative, reform, traditional, or just plain frei. if you really want to align yourselves with them, go right ahead. once we’re on the subject, perhaps you could explain why you seem feel that you have no obligations yourselves to support Torah mosdos and feel that you deserve eternal gratitude for every cent you contribute?
as far as “The Holocaust in History” is concerned, i don’t have it on hand, and therefore can’t reference page numbers, but there is no shortage of damning material in his sections on the zionistic leaders of the judenraat, the response of world zionist leaders etc.
truthsharer: it’s well known that Rav Elchonon Wasserman could have saved himself by remaining in america, but chose to return to be together with his talmidim. However i have never seen or heard anywhere that he could have saved his yeshiva as well, please back that up.
starwolf: “the spiritual dangers most definitely did not exceed the physical benefit. Those people died in horrible circumstances.” i couldn’t have asked for a better summary of your weltenshaung. how can you possibly weigh a spiritual tradegy against a physical
one.
“There was no way to predict how they would have lived their lives had they emigrated.” why was the trend set by the first wave of zionist initiated immigration not an accurate prediction?
“Harav Hagoan”:
Interesting that you assume that the supporters of these Mosdot were every stream BUT MO. And MO did certainly exist at the time, YU was already there.
I also find it interesting that you assume that we “seem feel that you have no obligations yourselves to support Torah mosdos and feel that you deserve eternal gratitude for every cent you contribute?”
Many of us offer considerable suport to Torah Mosdot. However, we can choose which ones to support, and could–if we so desired–support institutions such as YU, numerous Yeshivot Hesder, etc. Hareidi institutions are not the only representatives of Torah–whatever you might believe.
Nor do we expect “eternal gratitude”. However, for those of your ilk (and I most certainly do not include all Hareidim in this) we receive no gratitude whatsoever, only condemnation and contempt.
The evidence regarding Rav Elchana Wasserman’s talmidim is out there. Do a Google search. I could post some of it, but it is a little too heartbreaking for me to deal with.
Harav HaGoan wrote:
“feif un and starwolf: those philanthropists whose aid Rav Aaron Kotler and other Roshei Yeshivos enlisted in starting their mosdos were hardly MO. (which arguably didn’t exist at the time) they were conservative, reform, traditional, or just plain frei. if you really want to align yourselves with them, go right ahead.”
This strikes me as a very odd comment. Those philanthropiists were so frei that they thought aiding Rav Aaron Kotler was worthwhile.
Do you think any of those frei philanthropists would be interested in supporting those mosdos if they knew this was how they’d be spoken of? It defies common decency.
starwolf: YU preceded MO by a long time. Rabbi Moshe Shatzskes was hardly MO.
just-a-guy: i cant change history to suit your preferences. would you like me to photoshop a yarmulka on their heads.
Harav HaGoan- I’m not asking you to change history. I am asking you to behave with common decency, kindness and respect towards someone who supports you even if they have shortcomings of their own. Why is that so difficult?
“Harav HaGoan”– Rabbi Dr. Revel had been the persident of YU since 1915 or so. Note the “Dr.” Now does that sound MO or Hareidi to you?
By the 1940s, (the period that we are discussing, YU’s direction was already clear. Rabbi Dr. Belkin took over in 1943. Again, note the “Dr.” Both men established extensive secular studies in YU. Now, does that fit more into MO or Hareidi philosophy?
Nevertheless, YU faculty, staff, and students–and their congregations, did a great deal to help establish the institutions such as BMG.
I understand that the MO world will not get any appreciation form such as you until you cross that big river. You know, denial.
Well, I am bit disappointed that thread endeavoring to determine what type of Jew I am died so quickly. My ego thus takes a beating, but I suppose it’s good for my soul.
That matter aside, I read these debates, back and forth, back and forth, “My brand is better than your’s,” “Those people are heretics,” “Those people are religious snobs,” “Their way is not THE way,” blah blah blah, goes on and on and on.
And I think of HKB’H watching all of this from above. And I think of parents watching children argue about who offended or disobeyed the parent more, and the parents stepping in and saying, “Stop fighting amongst yourselves and stop lambasting each other in the guise of trying to be mechabed me. Because your infighting brings me no kavod. Retreat to your corners and determine to be the best, most honest people you can be ACCORDING TO THE IDEALS THAT YOU HOLD AS TRUTH. And set the petty bickering aside.”
So this one eats potato chips with the wrong hashgocho? Fine – don’t take a chip from him. But before you castigate him, check your own moral inventory.
None of us are perfect.
Including me.
After all, I had sukkah decorations.
Just to amplify my point from yesterday. While Reb Michoel Dov Weissmandl was a big tzadik with a pure heart, nevertheless, when you think about how his scheme sounded to others, it is exactly protection money.
The Mafia gets a hold of certain people and demands money, or else they will harm their family or whatever. If they pay up, they will not be hurt. This is one of their major rackets. Besides, what happened to the Mishna in Gittin which says not to ransom captives for huge sums. You have to understand that many Jews said that Jewish money can be used for a permanent solution to build a state which will benefit Jews of all types in the future, and prevent this from happening again, rather than throwing all this money down the drain to the Nazis who may end up using it to kill even more Jews.
Few people would agree that paying protection money is the way to deal with the mob. Most would recommend that the victim go to the authorities and put them out of business and behind bars.
a little factoid about higher secular education in the Torah world: I read a quote somewhere (i wont say where) of the Chassam Sofer, who lived at the dawning, gruesome as it was, of modern medicine. I requote freely: “I have always been puzzled why we don’t have our own institutions for how can we rely on the universities of the goyim whose premises are faulty and whose wisdom is idolatry. For all their expertise is based on the examination (disection) of heathens who eat shkatzim urmasim,and worry not about mitzvos, what can they know of the Jew who abhors shkatzim uramsim and worrys for mitzos”
Pashuta Yid: Believe me, your point wasnt worth amplifying. everyone knew that it was possible to bribe the nazis ym’s, it had already been done successfully in Slovakia. Most importantly, the zionists didnt hesitate to bribe the nazis at the end of the war, when it served their own purposes.
Joseph posted:”
I will take a Godol’s idea of when a spiritual danger exceeds a physical benefit any day over yours. Regardless of the circumstances, in your humble opinion.
“the advice was not to emigrate”
Even taking into account what I said above, this point of yours was the case in relatively few cases.”
Nevertheless, the advice was given. The advice prevented some from emigrating, and others form attempting, Like it or not, that advice cot the lives of Jews–and no matter how you try to shrug it off or whitewash it–those Rabbanim were wrong. The results proves them so. This is not slander.
“And like I keep pointing out, indeed it was very very few who even ever had this opportunity. It surely was never available in any large numbers, no matter the definition.
And it was never even desired amongst the populace (to emigrate) in large numbers. So lets quit slandering Rabbonim ZT’L with false implications if not claims. “
This does not make the advice correct. And what do we say about saving a single life? A number of these counsels weere given to people who specifically asked. That means that they were considering emigration. Whether or not they would have succeeded is moot–you do not know the answer. Mir got out–because they tried. Others did not even try-some because of this.
” Harav Hagoan” posted: starwolf: “the spiritual dangers most definitely did not exceed the physical benefit. Those people died in horrible circumstances.” i couldn’t have asked for a better summary of your weltenshaung. how can you possibly weigh a spiritual tradegy against a physical
one.
“There was no way to predict how they would have lived their lives had they emigrated.” why was the trend set by the first wave of zionist initiated immigration not an accurate prediction? “
That comparison of spiritual dangers against physical ones was not mine. It was done by the Rabbanim of the time, as Joseph put it: “the Rabbi may have correctly decided that someone would better risk dieing a Yid in Europe than a shaigets in America (or wherever.) ” Needless to say, the word “correctly is Joseph’ opinion, not my own.
As far as the accuracy of the prediction, many Jews had emigrated to the US, and led perfectly Halachic lives. There was not necessarily spiritual death there. The same held true for Palestinine. Yes, in Israel relatively few Jews at the time were observant, yet there were still some. And the reason for the lack of many observant Jews in Palestine is that they did not come; they listened to the Rabbanim. Too bad. Perhaps if things had been different, they might have survived, and the State of Israel would have had the benefit of their Torah learning.
Could all the Jews have gotten out? No.
Those that did try–some made it. Some became irreligious–as the Rabbanim feared. Others established Torah institutions that endure to this day.
Was it better to stay in Europe? We know the answer. The advice to do so was bad advice, and it does not matter who gave it.
starwolf: nice try attempting to distort my post. assuming this sites readers dont have the i.q. of cabbage, nobody fell for it. I criticized you for asserting that physical safety justifies taking a spiritual risk, thats for a Gadol to decide. you’ve simply repeated that dubious contention a second time, it hasn’t become any more intelligent.
Harav Hagaon. Who is falling for what? In this sub text of a subtangent to the original post, the discussion was looking backward, as what do you say when daas torah has had what appear to us as tragic consequences? I must forward a permanent apology– I am just no good with mareh mkomos. How do you square the Rema somwhere deep in YD where he says “dever ba’ir, yanus es ha’ir. What is the heichi timza? what if there is spiritual danger in flight from the city? He doesn’t say “ask your gadol, and then flee the city”
Harav hagaon, you’re wrong. There is nothing to decide. Physical safety trumps all. Any “gadol” who says otherwise is simply wrong. The torah says “. . .v’chai bahem. . .” to which the gemara adds “velo sheyamut bahem.”
“Harav Hagoan”–
“My contention”–was a question that was asked back in the 1930s and 1940s. It was asked of Gdolim, and my contention here was that, in some cases, their answer was wrong. It cost some of the people who asked the question their lives- in some cases, visas were ready–some prepared by those very MO YU Rabbanim. Perhaps you feel that the spiritual dangers of Modern Orthodoxy are worse than the very real possibility of dying at the hands of the Nazis. Personally, I do not think that htis is a question that requires the attention of a Gadol. I do not have to ask a Gadol if walking on thin ice is dangerous.
You may have the idea that Rabbanim are infallible; I do not.
On the other hand, I do respect Rabbanim and Institutions of streams of Judaism other than my own, which is more than I see from your posts. Respect for Rabbanim is one thing. Elevating them to the status of Neviim is quite another.
And so Joseph believes that all he need do is quote people who casually dismiss the advice of the leaders of the Hareidi community not to emigrate and it all goes away? Especially when, given unique opportunity, some of those leaders did escape–and left their flocks to the gas chambers?
Shall I really name names here?
Shall we name Hareidi leaders who–after being rescued by efforts of all streams of American Jewry–made no efforts to lend their names to further rescue efforts–especially if they were not Hareidi?
For decades, Zionists leaders had been encouraging Aliyah. This, after all is what Zionism is all about. A great many (by no means all) of the Rabbinical leaders of the time opposed leaving Europe. Joseph indeed has cited decisions that “better a physical death in Europe than a possible spiritual death elsewhere”. Joseph has also implied that those decisions were correct. In that case, it is difficult to blame the Zionists.
Perhaps the definition of those with Joseph’s viewpoint is that, aft4er ignoring the advice of the Zionist movement, they then blame the Zionists for not doing enough to rescue them. We certainly can observe that in the case of one famous anti-Zionist Rebbe–he was not rescued by any Hareidi organization, but rather by the same people that he spent a goodly portion of his life besmirching. Need we name names?
While nobody accuses the Rabbanim of cooperation with the Nazis, bad judgment on their part was rampant. Furthermore, because of the way that Hareidi society is built, discussion of such topics is basically suppressed. However, this does not hold true for the society outside of Hareidi purview–which describes most of Jewry–and even most of religious Jewry. Plenty of research on the topic is available. Plenty of eyewitness accounts are available–having been transcribed by organizations such as Yad Vashem. Including eyewitness accounts of people who heard these psakim directly from Rabbanim.
In any event, perhaps Joseph can continue to use the issue to deligitimize Zionism and Modern Orthodoxy. Maybe he can even convince a few people who will not accept any source besides the ones that he brings.
Sorry to bust another bubble, but it was precisely the opposite. It were the Rebbes and the Rabbonim, who by and large discouraged or have outright forbidden leaving Europe, especially to the USA. Whether their reasons were good, or even absolutely correct, there is no point of lying and changing history, laying the blame on the Zionists. Even if the only aim of the latter was to make everyone irreligious and turn them into total reshaim, it were not the Zionists who chose to keep the Jews in Europe.
EDITED
Interestingly, whatever plans FDR may have had in 1948 remained with him in the netherworld. One does not need to dig into old letters and documents to avoid such glaring mistakes.
Also, do tell why the great Rebbes themselves ran from Hitler with forged papers and shaved faces, or hid in Polish barns. Were they not following their own advice to stay in Europe, or did the Zionists cause their demise?
Anyone want to organize a Yeshiva World group to go see Killing Kasztner?
EDITED
Joseph, quoting perfidy and R’ Miller’s book is not the same as quoting actual fact based books. QED.
So we are to believe nameless faceless anonymous internet posters calling our generations Torah leaders liars.
We are to believe these, over the words of our giants such as Rabbi Hutner and Rabbi Miller.
Yes, that will be the day.
EDITED
Joseph’s post really has no point. This is a thread about Modern Orthodoxy, and he’s bringing non-religious Zionists into it. What’s the point?
He quotes R’ Hutner. R’ Hutner also said that R’ YB Soloveitchik was one of the Gedolei Hador.
Feif
Learn from the lawyers. When you have no case, or wish to supress other’s claim, bury them in paper. That should answer your doubts.
Rav Hutner’s Rebbe was also Rav Kook ZT”L.
Jothar
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach has written more than once regarding Rav Kook “Mara d’Arah D’Yisroel, Mori Verabi Harav Hagaon R’ A.Y. Kook zecher kodosh levrocho”. When some mosad asked his opinion about hiring a prospective rebbi, R’ Shlomo Zalman advised against it, since that individual spoke disperpectfully about R’ Kook.
Nobody can accuse R’ Shlomo Zalman of being modern orthodox, or Zionist, yet people a quick to quote him when it fits their aggenda, forgetting that they way they speak of his rebbi was considered extremely disrespectful and wrong by him.
In the same breath that quotes R’ Hutner, one can be disparaging toward those whom R’ Hutner held to be his own teachers and guides. R’ Miller, z’l, who was adamantly opposed to Internet use, is being quoted upon everything but the topic he so much opposed, and on a web page, no less. The list goes on, as do the postings of “selected readings” of those that the posters consider to be correct in a particular topic, when it fits with their own pre- and mis- conceived notions.
Rabbi Miller, tz’l said Rabbi Kook was a great man (words that Rabbi Miller never used lightly) who made a mistake in a particular area.
Rabbi Hutner, like the rest of the Gedolim, disagreed very much with Rabbi Kook and Rabbi Soloveitchik’s hashkofos. The latter were Daas Yochid’s. In fact, Rabbi Hutner removed Rabbi Kook’s photo from his Sukka where it used to hang.
R’ Hutner took down the picture of R’ Kook only after R’ Kook’s psak regarding women in the army. His talmidim have said that he always spoke highly of R’ Kook even afterward.
Feif
Rav Kook passed away long before Israel became a state. Which army are you referring to, for the sake of accuracy. Otherwise this approcahes FDR’s intentions in 1948
MM and FU, R’ Hutner was a talmid muvhak of R’ Kook and shared his hashkafos on many things. It was only when it became politically incorrect to be associated with R’ Kook that R’ Hutner started to distance himself. That is why in reprints of his sefarim you will see a missing space for the haskamah of R’ Kook.
“It was only when it became politically incorrect to be associated with R’ Kook that R’ Hutner started to distance himself.”
Oh, please. After attacking one Godol of being a liar (Rabbi Miller), now you are attacking another Godol’s motives.
For shame.
MM, when did I call R’ Miller a liar?
And the fact is that R’ Hutner used to quote R’ Kook often, and received haskamos from him. Now, R’ Kook became a boogieman in the Yeshiva world so there’s this movement to distance R’ Hutner from R’ Kook. Ask the Fruchthandlers how much they would pay for the original sefarim that still have R’ Kook’s haskamah in it.
mezonos maven- in your eyes, are all Gedolim infallible?? You mean to say that no Godol EVER had a certain “negiah” to an issue?? Do you mean to say that no godol EVER succumbed to public pressure??
tsharer: When you effectively said that Rabbi Miller’s Sefer is not “fact based.” (QED) That was reprehensible.
MM, was R’ Miller writing a history book? No, so why is it not OK to say that I’ll take my history on the Holocaust from those who went through it?
In that case read Min HaMeitzar by Rabbi Weissmandl.
EDITED
Anybody who blames the Zionists for what the Nazis did is at best a shakran and at worst an apikorus. To say, as was quoted above that had we listened to Rav XYZ’s plan the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened is totally ignoring the fact the the RBSH runs the world. To make up nonsense that the Mufti and Hitler were great friends of the Jews if not for the Zionists, is ludicrous. The blame belongs on Hitler and the Mufti, not on the victims. Plenty of Zionists lost family in the Holocaust, as well.
To say that had we resorted to the old scheme of “quiet diplomacy” (read, protection money) everything would have been fine, is also baloney and kefira. What about Tach vTat, the Crusades, the Inquisition??? Do the Zionists also take the blame for those, as well? It is an inability to admit that the Holocaust was min hashamayim and possibly because of deep personal kashyas of some of these Rabbonim which they don’t have answers for that they play the blame game. If you want to talk about hishtadlus to prevent anti-semitism, the rational way is to do what the Zionists did, and establish a safe haven run by Jews in our own homeland so we will not be subject to pogroms, economic discrimination, expulsions, compulsion to convert to other religions, etc. The logic is so simple that one would have to have had his mind totally twisted by Chareidi propaganda to think that a better solution is to depend on other nations to protect us and treat us fairly when their track record in doing so througout all of history has been so dismal. What world are these distorters of history living in? Do they have any idea how bitter the golus has been even long before the holocaust? Are they aware how the Russians used to draft nice Yiddishe kids for 25 years until they were finished with yiddishkeit and completely broken, having been away from their families for all that time? Read about the Cantonist children for details. I have never heard such sheker in my life that throughout our golus life was great thanks to “quiet diplomacy”. One would have to be a total shoteh not to feel the pain of this long and bitter golus for two thousand years.
Any person on the street knows its better to own your own home rather than rent, since the landlord can evict you any time and not renew the lease. He can control how you use the property, raise the rent every year, conduct maintenance and invade your privacy when you most need some rest and tranquility (say the week before your son’s bar mitzvah), etc. etc. etc. When you own your own place, as long as you can afford the mortgage, you are the baal habayis and nobody can make your life miserable. It is so simple any child can understand it. Chareidi brainwashing goes a long way in getting people to lose their ability to think. The Zionists took the most sensible and comprehensive path in trying to solve the problem of anti-semitism. Was everything they did perfect, no, they were human. So let’s continue to improve on the beautiful edifice they have built and from which all Jews benefit Chareidim included, although they don’t have the midas haemes to admit it. Compare their lives now in EY with their lives in their beloved Europe they so much long for (and want to continue that language and dress). Only a fool would think it was better then.
Sorry, my mistake re: the picture.
He had a picture of R’ Kook in his sukkah. After the debate on women serving in the army, he replaced it with a picture of the Chazon Ish, to show his respect for his fight against having women in the army. It wasn’t any disrespect towards R’ Kook, rather to show respect to the Chazon Ish.
PY: Wow, yet another nameless faceless anonymous internet poster “taking on” Rabbi Hutner.
MM, it seems that you are the only one taking on Rabbi Hutner.
tsharer: Will an apology be forthcoming from you for saying Rabbi Miller’s Sefer is not “fact based” (QED)?
No. I don’t need to. R’ Miller’s books are not history books and it wasn’t written as a history book, so why would I ever need to apologize?
Let’s grant for arguments sake it wasn’t written as a history book. So what? Whatever type of Sefer it is or isn’t, where do you take on the chutzpa to say that a Godol’s Sefer is not a “fact based book”?
It is as fact based as his discussions regarding evolution are. With all due respect for the great man’s learning, when it comes to FACTS, those remain to be ascertained from every source possible. When “gedolei rabbonei CHABAD” emphatically state that the Rebbe never went bareheaded, that is contradicted by the statement of Rabbi Soloveichik, who saw him walking thus in Berlin on a daily basis, whereas the Lubavicher rabbis weren’t even there. Still, one may say that its their word against his. True, until one sees a readily available photo of the Rebbe from those days, that amply proves Rabbi Soloveichik’s words.
People who were specifically told not to leave Europe by their Rabbis provide enough evidence to the veracity of their statements, corroborated by multitudes. No matter how one may wish to defend the rabbinical stance, even if perfectly correct, they DID tell their followers to remain in Europe. This fact remains, as does the one that some used any means to escape, while their flock remained under the Nazi rule. I am not accusing any of them of hypocrisy or abandonment. Possibly they felt that they had to save themselves to rebuild Torah. While that answer may be more than adequite, the fact remains a fact that while their followers went to Treblinka, they were spirited out to safety that they had previously advised against.
Until one acknowledges factual truth, even if with explanation, one isn’t worthy of a debate, or even of a reply. Until then, go and rewrite the TNa”CH, where the greatest of the great are openly castigated for their mistakes.
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