Modern Orthodox Judaism

Therefore all these supposedly Chareidi people are relying on Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik.

BS”D

Thanks – the above is funnier than even the krumkeit I come up with for Creedmoor.

PY – It’s very easy to bash. But you are avoiding my question: do you claim that the modern world is any better than the chardei one?

First of all, where the chardei world has bein adam l’chavaro problems, the modern world mirrors in bein adam l’makom. If “the pinnacle of generations of Chareidi thought” are the mobs in meah sharim, why isn’t “the pinnacle of generations of modern thought” the millions of people who observe torah u’mitzvos either only when convenient, or not all?! Or maybe the crowning accomplishment of modern judaisim should be the theory that the Torah that Hashem gave us “isn’t for today”?!

Second, the very statements you make seem to be lacking in the much-vaunted ahvas yisroel. “The only difference between the radicals and the mainstream chareidim is the use of physical violence.” “The Chareidi world needs to realize that they have ignited these “crazies” with their constant bad-mouthing of Medinas Yisroel and all its symbols.” Your posts seem to indicate that where the chardei is “rife with anti-zionist views and propaganda”, the modern world has “anti-chardei views and propaganda”. Why should their alleged negative views and badmouthing of the zionists be any worse than yours of them?

For people who consider themselves intellectuals some comments here are pretty vapid. The Chareidim have a reasonable Shita that the Zionist government does not have a legitimate right to function. This Shita was formulated by Gedolim and is partly based upon the fact that the founders of the medinah were complicit in the Holocaust, and also coerced thousands of sefardic children to abandon judaism. Some posters on this site attempt to malign anyone involved with the Eidah as hot-headed zealots. Lets remember that Dayan Weiss, the current head of the Eidah was very highly regarded in England only a few short years ago. Inane, dithering comments about how the Zionist founded a beautiful society, made the dessert bloom etc. are completely besides the point and fail to convey anything meaningful.

Kilobear, you can make fun all you want, but are you denying that in EY the Chareidi world does not even allow high school?

BS”D

Instead charedi leaders in EY are coming up with their own system for both men and women where secular learning takes place in a proper environment at the right time.

The main problem in EY has to do with the secular government preventing many charedim from working and has nothing to do with any trends in the US. And the reason this is done is fear that an educated charedi workforce will enter the secular world and cause even more of a wave of tshuva than is already taking place among secular “Israelis” who become Jews again either in or outside EY because they see how empty the Zionist and post-Zionist ideology is and always was.

A600KiloBear has no idea of what he is posting about.

The school system developed by Hareidi leaders has no secular subjects at high school level. This is true for both systems; Ashkenazi and Sephardi (which are adminstered separately).

As afa as the secular government holding Hareidim back–quite the contrary is true,. Many programs are in place to train qualified Hareidim to work in specialized jobs. These programs are completely separate for men and women, and include a number of highly technical tasks, such as those dealing with satellite imaging. However, the Hareidim must be trained, and many do not meet even the minimum entrance requirements. Nevertheless, for those who do, the programs seem to be quite a success.

The government is doing all that it can to encourage the Hareidim to enter the workplace. It is only the views of the Hareidim themselves and their Rabbanim who discourage this. Do not atempt to blame the Zionists for the problems caused by your (Hareidi population) lack of education; this was your choice.

Joseph,

I have not slandered anyone. And you cannot make the problem go away. I have had some discussion about this with you in past threads, and read your previous posts on the subject. I am also aware of numerous testimonials by survivors documented by Yad Vashem. The subject is not as clear-cut as you seem to think.

I do not bring this up in a vacuum. If people insist on blaming the Shoah on the actions of the Zionists, or accusing us of complicity with the Nazis, I think that it is appropriate to examine the actions of the nonzionist and antizionist leadership as well. These were difficult times for all of us, and for the followers of one Jewish hashkafa to think that the followers of another made a mistake is one thing. To accuse the other of active collaboration is another. I would certainly never stoop to the latter approach. Before you mention slander, you should look to the post that I replied to when bringing up the topic.

Again, I do agree this particular thread is not the place to discuss this.

BS”D

I am talking about the proliferation of post yeshiva and sem practical training institutes, which even prepare haredim for advanced secular degrees such as law, in EY. The government discourages these efforts from getting too far “out of hand”. My information regarding this just so happens to be first hand, not what I read in some rag like Am Ha’Aretz.

A few “good haredim” in the workforce only allows the left to point to the rest of the community and to pat a few poster boys on the back occasionally. Dudi Zilberschlag was one of those poster boys; in a recent interview he said he is becoming far more militant toward the institutions of the medine (though he continues to help its weakest citizens regardless of their level of observance or beliefs via Meir Panim). A revolution of the type that the community would like to see, where its members could live and work as they do in the US, Canada and Europe, would bring about a wave of tshuva which the medine is not ready for. Army service? Too many soldiers as it is; the medine likes the present situation as they don’t need the charedim anyway and then can point to them as shirkers. National service would only expand the Meir Panims out there and yes, there we go again, more tshuva.

Thanks to the deracination of Edot haMizrah immigrants by the medine, EY is the only place where you find convicts bearing surnames like Kadosh, Hasid, Mevorach and yes, Zakai! Their counterparts who got out of the morass or avoided it altogether are successful merchants and professionals in France, the US, Canada and many other places.

As for the horrendous treason of the zionists during the Shoah, it was just proven beyond a doubt that instead of continuing a boycott of the Nazi government that could have brought this malchis harisha to its knees, the zionists accepted blood money and a pitiful number of Jews to stop the boycott. That is what happens when you take the concept of am Yisroel which is kedusha and turn it into the hepech hakedusha of modern, G-dless nationalism.

Immigration to EY? There were not enough visas to go around and we know who took more than their fair share. The whole point was moot and whichever way you look at it Hashem decreed that the leaders of Torah should be saved in order to plant the seeds of Torah in free soil.

The present medine is a toeva that must fall (it COULD have been something else but as we are in golus and the medine is tiff in golus the misyavnim won and are running it into the ground) but to avoid bloodshed let it fall to Moshiach already. While it is our obligation to strengthen Jews living in EY by bringing them to Torah, and the fact is that the medine did happen, it is not any sort of geulah. The medine is to the geula as chas vesholom a malignant cell is to a healthy one.

The medine is like bringing davar acher to the mizbeach because a malchus tuma in Eretz haKoidesh is exactly that – davar acher al gabei hamizbeach (chas vesholom)!

starwolf: It’s understandable that you need to protect the zionists from attack at all costs, the alternative is to change your entire worldview. Zionist complicity in the Holocaust is considered an irrefutable fact by all historians, only the extent of it is debated. I’m sure you have read perfidy, but check out also “kivshei ha’ashanim ma’ashimim” in hebrew by Rabbi Moshe Shoenfeld z”l.

BS”D

What kind of a Jew am I?

Any kind except Chabad….now to add some fun to this thread let’s see who else knows how I know Telegrok is not a Lubavitcher…..

He had decorations in his succah.

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A600KiloBear – Chabad doesn’t put up sukkah decorations.

Posted 36 minutes ago #

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aryeh3

Member

He had decorations in his succah.

BS”D

Yep – tzvye Creedmoorer foodshtempelach and a sectien-acht epplikation for each of you – that was too easy!

You’re probably right. Sorry, my mistake.

A600KiloBear posted:

“I am talking about the proliferation of post yeshiva and sem practical training institutes, which even prepare haredim for advanced secular degrees such as law, in EY. The government discourages these efforts from getting too far “out of hand”. My information regarding this just so happens to be first hand, not what I read in some rag like Am Ha’Aretz.”

Yeah, right. First hand information from whom in the government? They discuss state policy with Chabadniks in the Ukraine these days?

“Army service? Too many soldiers as it is; the medine likes the present situation as they don’t need the charedim anyway and then can point to them as shirkers. National service would only expand the Meir Panims out there and yes, there we go again, more tshuva.”

Now you are an expert on the needs of the army? Serve on the General Staff, do you?

National service for Hareidim has been proposed many times, and in many forms. Guess who rejects the proposals each time? (Clue: Their clothing is somewhat monochromatic.)

“As for the horrendous treason of the zionists during the Shoah, it was just proven beyond a doubt that instead of continuing a boycott of the Nazi government that could have brought this malchis harisha to its knees, the zionists accepted blood money and a pitiful number of Jews to stop the boycott. That is what happens when you take the concept of am Yisroel which is kedusha and turn it into the hepech hakedusha of modern, G-dless nationalism.”

Hmm, I don’t see you complaining about the efforts of the Hareidi Jewish community to rescue their Rebbeim and Talmidim. And correctly so. Yet when the Zionists do the exact same thing, it is a crime, according to you. Not everyone need share your priorities. And again, I would be careful about getting into this. Some prominent Rebbeim, after their rescue, did absolutely nothing to rescue their fellows left behind. And they were certainly prominent enough to have made a difference. Do you really wish to get into this topic?

“The present medine is a toeva that must fall (it COULD have been something else but as we are in golus and the medine is tiff in golus the misyavnim won and are running it into the ground) but to avoid bloodshed let it fall to Moshiach already. While it is our obligation to strengthen Jews living in EY by bringing them to Torah, and the fact is that the medine did happen, it is not any sort of geulah. The medine is to the geula as chas vesholom a malignant cell is to a healthy one. “

I personally do not know whether Medinat Yisrael is the beginning of Geula; I can hope so, but I am not a Navi, nor do I think that anyone else in our day is. You think that “the present Medina must fall”? Is that a prediction? Or just a prayer? Do you consider yourself a Navi?

The views of those who reject the Medina so completely are utter nonsense. Torah here flourishes as nowhere else–Modern Orthodox AND Hareidi, under the auspices of the state. As far as your comparison of the Medina to malignant cells–well, I would say that you know as much about biology and medicine as you do about the IDF. That is, enough to know a little about the terminology, but not enough to understand: ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????

the only people who are still trying to re-write the history of the Holocaust (teheran, neturei karta…some bloggers here..) are the ones who feel threatened by real history…”oif dem ganef brent dus hittel” (check with your yiddish speaking relative…)the “evil” zionists have moved on long ago and are trying to make TODAY and TOMMRROW a betetr day- free of any future catastrophe, chas veshomom…

Eim Habanim Semaicha was written by a Chassidishe Rebbe who blasted the rebbes and rabbanim for telling their flock to stay behind.

EDITED

BS”D

the “evil” zionists have moved on long ago and are trying to make TODAY and TOMMRROW a betetr day- free of any future catastrophe, chas veshomom…

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Also funnier than Creedmoor.

Much of the anti-Semitism in the world comes from the way the medine acts. It can neither wage decisive war (when it did in 1948 and 1967 it was admired) nor make a lasting peace because you cannot make peace with Muslims. The medine continues to jeopardize the lives and well being of Jews within and outside its borders because by nature it cannot succeed. It is davar acher al gabei hamizbeach. When the medine forcibly vacated shuls in Gush Katif, there was anti Semitic violence in Kiev, at the hands of thugs who saw on TV that the medine, which they wrongly identify with Jews, is a weakling that can destroy its own places of kedusha and beat up its own teenage girls.

In fact there are no more tzioinim except a handful of “hilltop youth” and diehard RZ who are really strange, to be honest. There are post zionists who want to erase even the phony “Israeli” identity of the tzioinim in exchange for a vapid Obama style ideology based on go with the flow, lack of pride and fake love for everyone except those to the right of them who have real values.

BS”D

Yes, I alluded to the fact that the vaad rescued rabbonim and that this was ratzon Hashem so that seeds of Torah could be planted elsewhere and the community rebuilt. There were just not very many visas to anywhere out there and Torah priorities did indeed mean that Torah leaders needed to be saved first. This might not sit well with those who have American egalitarian sensibilities as opposed to Torah sensibilities, but that is just how it is. If the rabbonim had not been saved there would be no frum communities today anywhere and we all would have assimilated and intermarried ch”v.

However, most of those the zionists saved were just meant to be labor for the agrarian pipe dreams of the zionist elite and all of their efforts were directed at building their socialist utopia at the expense of saving Jews. They had far more resources and support than the Va’ad ever did and could have done a lot more. It is like comparing Hatzoloh to the EMS and asking why Hatzoloh does not answer every single call, Jewish and otherwise, that comes in via 911!

Em HaBanim Smeicha was a polemic written under fire and not meant to in any way promote the zionist state or zionist ideas regardless of its contents but rather to criticize not running away from the fire, as if there was anywhere to run. Apparently his son(s) managed to escape and there is a huge Chabad Teichtel family that is descended from him.

At one time, probably until he chose to retire, one of Rav Teichtel’s Lubavitcher sons was the prison chaplain at the infamous Shattah prison, home to the worst offenders in EY. He saw firsthand the products of the spiritual churban and just what the zionists did to Jews from places where Jewish violent crime was unheard of.

Jewish criminality in Morocco and Tunisia was something like 0.01% of the quite sizeable Jewish population. In EY a Moroccan Jew is called a marokai sakin, a Moroccan knife. As I once said to a group of Moroccan Jewish students, the only sharp knives Moroccan Jews ever used in Morocco were khalafim and milah knives.

MW13, First, I am not claiming the modern world is better than the Chareidi world. In fact I said earlier that the modern have problems with improper entertainment. I would also add that the coed shita of some modern schools is problematic, (except where absolute necessity such as extreme financial or parental pressure in an out of town community, for example, does not leave the school with any other choice.)

The chareidi boys for the most part are often more serious and more dedicated to learning than boys in modern schools (big secret, I send my own kids to a chareidi school), but there are very good modern boys as well.

The problem is that no modern person will change his ways as long as the chareidim continue to denigrate the State of Israel and secular studies. The modern looks at them as hateful and primitive because of that and wants no part of that type of yiddishkeit.

Finally, if I saw a modern person in a McDonalds eating a cheeseburger I don’t take it as a reflection of his philosophy. It is simply a yetzer hara. He may feel bad about it, or maybe he lost his job and is angry at G-d, or whatever. It is a human failing. He probably knows it is wrong. However, when chareidim act obnoxious b’shita and trash Yerushalayim, as if they are obligated to do this and they are doing a great mitzva, I feel like throwing up. There is a big difference when you do something terrible and think you are a great tzaddik in the process, than when you know your yetzer hara is getting the better of you. A shita of acting obnoxious or talking obnoxious is totally intolerable and a complete chilul hashem. As I have mentioned before, there are many people in the world who believe that religion is the cause of all wars and violence since the beginning of history. In our daily actions, are we proving or disproving that thesis?

Kilobear and others, anybody who blames the Zionists for the holocaust needs to have his head examined. The primary motivation for Zionism was anti-semitism and pogroms which occurred throughout the ages wherever Jews lived. You need to study history 101. The biggest Navi of the last century and a half may have been Herzl himself who predicted severe problems if the Jews don’t get their own State of Refuge and stop being dependent on non-Jewish hosts everywhere for their livelihood and personal safety who on a whim will expel, kill or plunder the Jews at any time. The Zionists went and told Hitler who was a big Jew lover that why not go ahead and kill some Jews. Hitler responded, but they are my friends and I respect them. The Zionists then said, they are out to get you and they stabbed Germany in the back in WW1. Hitler said I don’t believe it. The Zionists then falsified some documents and brought proof that the Jews are the major cause of all problems in Germany and the world. Hitler then sighed and said, this is very hard for me, but if the Zionists tell me that I must kill Jews, I will see if I can possibly make a holocaust. I am a kind man, and I would never hurt anybody, especially handicapped children. After long consideration, Hitler said, maybe I will just advise them to leave Germany. The Zionists said, no, you must kill them. Hitler said, how many, 10, 20? The Zionists said, no, we are talking every last one. Millions of Jews must be killed. With a heavy heart and conscience, Hitler said I will look into this.

Seriously, this is the most idiotic accusation anybody could make up. I have discussed elsewhere on YW that the fact that the Zionists did not want to spend millions of dollars on dubious bribes that in all likelihood would only have bankrupted the Jews even more and then be used to buy more military equipment for the Nazis to kill even more Jews, was a totally reasonable decision. I pointed out that the Nazis lied about every possible thing. They lied about aktions saying they were roll calls, they lied about the gas chambers saying they were showers. You are now going to trust them with millions of dollars???

The Zionists may have correctly figured that bribes are a band-aid approach to anti-semitism. The root of the problem is to have our own government which will never again expel or kill Jews. Very reasonable to me.

EDITED

starwolf: can you quote anything relevant to back up your statements (books, articles, research papers)? Just spare us any more MO pride drivel.

The root of the problem is to have our own government which will never again expel or kill Jews.

BS”D

ROTFLLOLLOLOLOL! You mean like in Gush Katif? And when that was happening, anti-Semites from a hornet’s nest of a university in Kiev started up with local Jews, because they see Jews who to them are represented by the medine are weaklings who give in to violence by kicking our own people out of our own homes!

Wow! Who needs Creedmoor when we have such krumkeit!

A600KiloBear takes examples like people rideing on shabbat as a failure of Religious Zionism and the philosophy of Rav Kook. He takes racists attitudes toward Moroccan Jews (which have largely faded over the years–these days, only the Ashkenazi Hareidi community gets upset if one of their daughters marries a Sephardic Jew–it happens all the time in the other sectors of society) and condemns all of the State becauses of them. However, when one brings up Hareidi excesses (such as stone-throwing, he says that they are not representative of the ills of Hareidi society–they are firnge elements.

Well, you can’t have it both ways. Either the fringe elements are representative of the larger society, or they are not.

starwolf: are you living in a vacuum? if you’ll reread my previous posts you’ll see that i already listed several books. you ask what the chareidi world has accomplished? nothing much, aside from rebuilding Torah from the ashes (despite the hindrances of your ilk). i know that thats probably meaningless to you, but its only fair to judge a society by their own ideals.

Harav HaShotah: The only way the chareidim rebuilt Torah from the ashes was with the help of the Modern Orthodox. Who funded (and still continues to fund) their yeshivos? Who do they turn to when out fund-raising?

I recently heard from someone that someone running a gemach in Passaic was opposed to someone opening a gemach in Teaneck. What was the reason? The person said, “In Teaneck, the community is rich Modern Orthodox people. It’s their job to support the yeshivish people in Passaic.”