Modern Music…..prohibited?

Zalman and Berlin,

Can you possibly try to write with more civility? Your manner is completely inappropriate for a Ben Torah.

Itzik,

It is not necessary to translate all of your thoughts into writing. Particularly negative ones. Isn’t Motzi Shem Ra and Lashon Hara infinitely more important than your personal perspective of a fellow Jew?

As a histiricl writer for a profession and as a researcher of Jewish history I hate to inform zalman that although lesschumras was a little extreme his opinion from a historicl point of view was peretty accurate. Thake that from a professional.

re rabbiofberlin on itzik’s future: I recently read that there is an opinion that ayin hara isn’t relevant anymore but when I hear one yid give such a klala to another, I get concerned.

rabbiofberlin, Where, pray tell me, have you become privy to G-d’s deliberations? Who are you to declare someone evil? Who do you think you are to confidently (“guarantee” in your words) predict someones downfall? Refuah Shelamo!

blue_shirt:

PLEASE. Show me the sources. And yes frum sources. The fact that you had to mention that point, demonstrates where you are coming from. How could you even contemplate non-Jewish (read:anti-semitic) “sources”? You have NO SOURCES, since none exist!

lesschumras falsely claimed that:

“Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%

of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais. They stayed frum out of habit.”

Show me that:

1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”

2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

3. “They stayed frum out of habit.” (i.e. Had they been “non-ignorant peasants” they surely would have “liberated” themselves and become nice frei goyim.

Per your offer, I (and others here) eagerly await your response with your sources. You cannot show me a reliable source for even ONE OF THESE THREE canards.

Morah Sarah: Thank You! (seriously.)

blueshirt,

And the source for 4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “taslmedai chachamim”

BS”D

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am really cracking up this time!

“rosho” itzk has written off (at least) two- thirds of am yisroel and insulted tens of thousands of holy neshomos.

Even Carlebach’s handful of leftover followers would never claim that he influenced 2/3 of am yisroel or had anything to do with tens of thousands of holy neshomos. He was a FREAKJOB who was part of a spiritual menu for a dwindling crowd of fellow FREAKJOBS.

I still remember that concert in 1990 on the Upper West Side. The 2 yeshivaleit and I who were there for the music looked as out of place as we would have in a nudist colony R”L. We were probably the only ones in the crowd who knew a single posuk that the mamash a gevald freakjob was singing….and let me tell you I was so inspired that I did something I never had done before or have done since at a concert or other function……you know, it was mamash a gevald, so high, so holy that I just couldn’t bear to see the holy Reb Shlomo hug and kiss all the heiliger maidlach freakjobs because I wasn’t holy enough to hang out with the meshuggines wearing such weird clothing and makeup that looked like 1968 in 1990 that you know, mamash, I WALKED OUT, never to return or to voluntarily listen to Carlebach again.

Even an acquaintance of mine, who is a big fan of his music describes Carlebach in the most unflattering terms possible without slipping into nivul peh. Someone I knew from the old days when I was just becoming frum and whom I would describe as very modern, was very turned off by his constant displays of physical affection toward her when she interviewed him for a Jewish publication.

At least Zalman didn’t deny that the Neviim, Tzedukim, Hellenizers and Karaites existed. Purim took place because our ancestors were out partying with Achashvarosh! Menashe, perhaps the most evil king in our history, ruled the longest and brought avodah zora into the Bais Hamikdash!The Gemorra describes, how in the times of the Bais Sheni, the office of Kohen Gadol was often sold to the highest bidder and the chachomim had to tutor them on their duties on Yom Kippur. Entire masechtas are devoted to issues of Jewish merchants defrauding each other (short weights, borrowing first quality oil/fruits/wine and paying back with lower quality etc). I’ll provide the Middle Ages sources for you. As far as conversions went, I didn’t say they were unhappy Jews, just ignorant. Conversion was never a real option unless you brought something of value to the church. As a rule, people who converted were lost in no man’s land, no longer accepted by their families, but also not trusted by the church. The Inquision was designed for this. One of our misconceptions is that it persecuted Jews. It actually couldn’t care less about Jews; it went after converted Jews who they viewed as potential heretics.

There is a community living in Italy that converted en masse centuries ago that Catholics still refuse to intermarry with. Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that the Jews by habit gave up their frumkeit. There were many anecdotal stories of Jews flinging there talleisim and tefillin into New York Harbor during the great waves of immigration of the late 19th and early 20th century .

So Zalman, other than Artscroll, what are your sources?

Joseph,

The only reason the Chassidim and Misnagdim finally stopped fighting each other was because they realized that so many Jews were leaving both of them. I will provide the sources but they won’t be Artscroll.

lesschumras,

You made the (false) contentions, you need to back up your words instead of ducking the issue when you have no sources.

We eagerly await your response to Zalman’s four aforementioned points, and the one additional I added.

I hadn’t heard of any issues with music until now (other than certain concerts being cancelled). Can someone please tell me the source or reasoning behind this? I myself listen to music mostly on Erev Shabbos to keep company while cooking and cleaning

to Joseph from Aish Hatorah( and once again, just because you say I brought a false accusation, doesn’t make it so. You allege I am wrong, well , document it.

by Rabbi Ken Spiro Initially a movement largely of the poor and uneducated, Hassidism introduced Kabbalah and spirituality into everyday life.

The Hassidic movement — the movement of the “pious ones” or Chassidut, in Hebrew — was founded in the 18th century in Eastern Europe by Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer, who became known as the Ba’al Shem Tov, which means “Master of the Good Name.” His teachings revolutionized the demoralized, persecuted Jews of Eastern Europe.

After the pogroms and massacres, (see Part 49), large parts of Eastern European Jewry had slipped into dire poverty. In addition to the tremendous physical destruction wrought by the Chmielnicki massacres, the tremendous disappointment caused by the false Messiah Shabbetai Tzvi (see Part 51) left much of the Jewish population of Eastern Europe in a collective state of deep depression. One of the victims of this situation was Jewish scholarship, with only an elite few studying in yeshivas while the rest eked out a meager living. As a result of the decrease in scholarship, Jewish religious life suffered — with the average Jew not connecting either intellectually or spiritually with God. And this is what the Ba’al Shem Tov sought to change.

THE OPPOSITION

Another significant concern of the Vilna Gaon was de-intellectualization of Torah. The Hassidic movement was largely a movement of simple, uneducated Jews, and he worried that Jewish scholarship was going to be replaced by singing and dancing. A religion that was a synthesis of heart and mind would become all heart and no mind.

Finally, the Vilna Gaon, and many other rabbis strongly objected to the fact that the Hassidim had changed the text of the prayer as this was considered a serious break with tradition and wholly unacceptable.

In hindsight we see that the Hassidic movement contributed significantly to the revitalization of Eastern European Jewry. It kept a lot of people connected to Judaism who could well have been lost because they didn’t have the time to study. And the pressure brought by the misnagdim against the hassidim acted as a brake in keeping them from going too far.

THE SPANISH INQUISITION

The Inquisition we are going to cover now is the Spanish Inquisition, which began officially by papal bull issued by Pope Sixtus IV on November 1, 1478.

Unlike its earlier version, the Spanish Inquisition sought to punish Jews who had converted to Christianity but were not really “sincere” in their conversions.

There was another reason for the Inquisition, which had little to do with the sincerity of conversions. Once Jews converted to Christianity they had an open access to the playing field, economically and politically. And, of course, they prospered mightily. That engendered a lot of hostility from the Christians – a pattern we have seen in Jewish history ever since the enslavement of the Israelites by the Egyptians.

The Christians began to call converted Jews “New Christians” to distinguish them from the “Old Christians” i.e. themselves. Derogatorily, Jewish converts to Christianity were called converses meaning “converts,” or worse yet marranos, meaning “pigs.”

The basic accusation was that these Jews were not real converts to Christianity – they were secretly practicing Judaism. That was certainly often the case. There were large numbers of Jews who would be outwardly Christian but who would continue to practice Judaism secretly.

Until this day, there exist Christian communities with clear Jewish roots dating back to this time. There are people in the United States (in New Mexico and Arizona) as well as in South and Central America, who are descended from Spanish or Portuguese settlers, and who have strange customs they cannot explain. For example, even though they are Catholics, on Friday night they go down to the cellar to light candles. They don’t know the origins of the custom, but they do it. These people are clearly descended from Jews who pretended to be Christians and yet were practicing Jewish rituals in secret.

By the way, Zalman never did reply to my points re Jews worshipping idols ( as seen throughiut Neviim ), the Tzedukim, the Hellenizers, the Karaites etc )

Joseph,

Apparently you only see what you want to see in your fantasy world. If you want to believe that every Jew in prior generations were learned tzadikkim, there is nothing I can do. But, other than your protestations, you haven’t showed where I am wrong. When Napolean granted equality to Jews, the yeshivas emptied out. If they weren’t “frum out of habit ” why did so many European Jews leave frumkeit as soon as they had the chance?

And, the time period I am referring to in your quotes was in Europe. Can you show me yopur proof that only “some poor uneducated Jews joined a movement ” . If was only a few, why was the Vilna Gaon so concerned?

lesschumras,

You continue to beat around the bush. I challenged your original statement, ON 5 SPECIFIC POINTS. Please let us all know where you came up with such baloney for THOSE 5 AFOREMENTIONED POINTS.

Joseph,

You obviously believe the best defense is a good offense. You’ve deftly avoided proving any of your points by ignoring and/or dismissing my points and proofs and labeling them as false. You clealy refuse to believe anything that upsets your world viewpoint. Once again, any facts to support YOUR charges? I’m still waiting.

lesschumras,

Logic is not your strong point.

This is what you said:

“Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%

of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

These are your words that I asked you to source:

1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”

2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”

4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”

5. “Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT.”

You answered and documented none of these malicious and false allegations.

So please NUMERICALLY respond to each of these 5 questions separately.

It is obvious you cannot since it is rubbish.

Joseph,

“Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%

of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

These are your words that I asked you to source:

1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”

2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”

4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”

As I stated in my response and quoation from Aish’s website, The Jews of

Eastern Europe were left destitute ,depressed and religiously exhausted

after the series of pogroms and false messiahs. The educated elite were

not concerned. What Chassiddus offered to the masses is what made it

so poewerful and attractive and why the misnagdim fougt it so. Wher is

your proof that ” som jews joined a movement”?

Once given the chance, why did so many yidden leave frumkeit. Again, I don’t understand your logic.

I’m required to bring documentation, which you don’t believe and won’t

believe because it upsets your idealized world view. You also ddn’t adress my pointr that the reason the Gemara spends entitr masecjtas on how to deal with false

witnesses, people who cheat in business is because we are human beings, not perfect.If you want to believe It’s typical that you still refuse to back up your claims that I am wrong because you obviously can’t. You demand proof from others but will not do so yourself.

I’m done. There is no use talking to a wall.

5. “Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT.”

You answered and documented none of these malicious and false allegations.

So please NUMERICALLY respond to each of these 5 questions separately.

It is obvious you cannot since it is rubbish