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So I daven in an MO shul close to where I work and they started a Daf Yomi shiur which I saw some women attending
Is this a good idea due to that the men will hopefully learn something or is it a bad idea because maybe the women will learn something or worse both of them will think they learned something
Thoughts?
With or without a mechitza?
Bad idea
You need to clarify your question. Are you questioning the maggid shiur, the women attendees, the men attendees or all of the above. Please be aware that all responses an comments to this thread will be read by members of the MO community, the Non_Orthodox community as well as the Chareidi community and the world at large.
They say that priests also learn, but we learn with yiras shomayim. Maybe we start with krias shma to emphasize this. ‘ראשית חכמה יראת ה. It says Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (28,4) not to put the gemora on the lap and the elbows are on it .
I think the mo daf yomi the bettuh.
I know MO bungalow colonies with mixed swimming. Does that make it right?
I think that Harbatzas Torah is a good thing. Torah for men is Keneged Kulam. Gemara for women is a waste of time (Gemara in Sotah). So it seems to be definite net gain! (Unless it leads to Holelus, in which case it’s the Atzas ha’Yetzer.)
the mo the merrier
Where is Reb Moshe ztz’l matir mixed sitting?
You should read the article in this past Weekend New York Times entitled “A Revolution in Jewish Learning, With Women Driving Change;” discussing in great detail a Daf Yomi program in EY for Women Only that has been meeting every morning in Raanana, a few KM north of Tel Aviv. The daily daf learning is led by a frum woman with about a half dozen other women participating. No men. They just had their own siyum and are starting the new cycle. A local Rav from the Rabbanut in the region (Rav Eliezer Weiss) commented positively about the group, noting that they were learning l’shma and not seeking publicity or trying to be provocative. The daily learning by the woman leading the daf class is also available in a podcast.
coffee: everyone?
Maybe husband and wife can sit next to each other, otherwise men sit next to men and women next to women.
Coffeeadict
R Moshe rules very clearly in Igors moshe that any event open to the public must have a mechitzah m’deoraysah he says that a wedding is not considered open to the public because there are invitationsThey may not have been seeking publicity, but it sounds like they’ve gotten it.
Tiflus
Any type of learning is a great thing. Why is this any different t? The MO part is irrelevant. As for women being present, that’s their choice. If they get bored, they’ll stop coming. I fail to see the problem here.
Coffee addict, by your logic men should also be barred based upon the number of men who pasken here incorrectly based upon what think they know
Gemera is not trief to women. If it was all Bias Yaakov and seminaries would not be able to quote to the girls any gemaras which is obviously impossible.
The gemara that talks about tiflus is saying that we do not create a system in which we emphasize, encourage,cajole etc. the learning of Torah shebeal peh to girls like we do to boys. If they want to learn it on their own that is their business.So to break it down- the maggid shiur is doing nothing wrong. He is just giving his regular shiur and the women join.
The women are doing nothing wrong, they have a thirst for Torah. Don’t knock it.
The other male attendees are doing nothing wrong as long as the gidrei tznius are in place (requiring a mechitza is ridiculous but if everyone is OK with that that is their business)
So too add it all up-yes it is a good thing bec. more Torah is being learned by klal yisrael.
If it was a high school requiring girls take a certain amount of gemara classes to graduate that would be a different story.
So paskens the Rebbe of CT
Rabbonim are suppose to have semicha indicating that their rebbi is confident in them that they usually, being well learned, will not make a mistake.
AJ: The real danger, as so eloquently articulated by our former DefSec R’ Rumsfeld, is because chazal bring down that there are inyanim the facts and consequences of which we are very confident (aka “known knowns) But there are also inyanim which are really” known unknowns” where we know in advance that there are parameters of a situation in which we may not know until that event is upon us. In the latter case, we can discuss with a Rav the various hypotheticals about what daas torah would have us do under different scenarios….in other words, we learn how to analyze new facts and circumstances to guide our behavior. The real challenge are inyanim which R’ Rumsfeld referenced the “unknown unknowns”—the ones we don’t know we don’t know. In those cases, a man will typically push forward and pasken for himself and his wife incorrectly based on what they THINK they know whereas a woman will tend to be less aggressive and pause to consider their options or defer action until they can consult with their LRP.
מִפְּנֵי שֶׁרֹב הַנָּשִׁים אֵין דַּעְתָּם מְכֻוֶּנֶת לְהִתְלַמד
It seems to me that according to the Rambam, Talmud Torah 1:13, most women don’t have the mental focus. Maybe they could if they really tried.
Based on that, I don’t have a problem with (that minority of ) women who are learning Lishmah.
Practically, I am skeptical of many women who learn because they want to be like the boys. My impression from my conversations.“What happened when they got up to that Gemara in sotah?”
They rely upon an alternative set of meforshim through which one can bring down the shitah that it is a woman’s responsibility to know ganz shas so she can responsibly perform her obligations to her husband to be an ezer kenegdo. End of story. Men can claim ignorance (and often do). Women don’t have that option.Rav Soloveichik not only allowed women to learn Gemara but inaugurated the bet midrash at Stern College. He reasoned that today women have high-level secular educations so they need similar Torah education. This was really just a continuation of Bet Yaakov, which was also a big chiddush when it started. Whether it is permissible or not to have a mixed shiur is a question for a posek. Most of the shiurim at the OU Israel Center are mixed so I presume that there are those who allow it. In some communities there is separate seating with or without a mechitza.
Rav Soloveichik not only allowed women to learn Gemara but inaugurated the bet midrash at Stern College.
Fits in with his overall approach to compromise in Yiddishkeit because he didn’t think it would survive in its traditional form. R’ Aharon proved him wrong, which he reportedly ended up admitting.
Look at the Magen Avraham SA O’CH 263,12 how to light on Yom Tov.
See the Chidushei Chasam Sofer Shabbos (24,2).coffee,
I don’t know anyone – of any gender – who thinks that attendance at a Daf Yomi Shiur renders them able to Pasken.
This that women should not learn gemara doesn’t apply now since nishtanu hativim (the nature changed), it used to be that as a result of womens place in society they wouldn’t properly understand torah, but now that women are working etc just like men there is no issue
Other than at least half of the population of the CR you are correct.
Whatsaktome. Do you have something to base this on?
I heard it in a shiur about this inyan (I dont recall the name of the maggid shiur)
Tiflus.
Joseph, it only says that the father should not teach the daughter, what about learning on her own like the aishes SMA?
Coffee Addict, Reb Moshe does NOT permit mixed seating at public shiurim, or at any other event that is open to the public. He permits it only at private gatherings, to which one needs an invitation.
Ct rebbe
“The other male attendees are doing nothing wrong as long as the gidrei tznius are in place (requiring a mechitza is ridiculous but if everyone is OK with that that is their business)”
I repeat r moshe Feinstein rules that it is a chiyuv d’oraysah
Not so ridiculousReb Eliezer: Please share with us the reason Chazal and Halacha strongly admonish fathers not to have their daughters taught Torah Shebal Peh.
Milhouse, where does he say that an invitation is required? BMG, he only says that regarding tefilla and at a מקום קיבוץ, which he does not define (he explicitly says that weddings do not even require separate seating and all of his children had mixed-seating weddings).
ftresi,
what you stated is so wrong and false where to even begin
our sages have stated so many quotes, Principles, and analogies in outright opposition to that assertionStart With Avos
Torah is one of the greatest Mitzvot , this is only if one has _Yirat Shamiym_, fear of heaven.
The Gemara (1) says that when one is being judged after passing away, they ask 6 questions.
After the list of questions, the Gemara says, “and even if one did all the above things, if they had fear of heaven, great. If not, what will all these things help?”
The Meiri writes on the above Gemara that Yirat Shamiym is the most important thing. It is everything, and has everything in it. Ones resurrection in techiat ha’meteem is dependent on it.
If one doesn’t end up having Yirat Shamiym, it would have been better to not have been born, and not have learned Torah.
The Shulchan Aruch (2) rules that a Talmid Chacham that treats Mitzvot lightly and doesn’t have Yirat Shamiym is considered like a low level member of the congregation.
Our Sages (3) teach us, an unlearned person with Yirat Shamiym, is preferable then a Talmid Chacham without Yirat Shamiym.
The Chayeh Adam (4) teaches that one must learn Sefarim on Yirat Shamiym every day, even if you will have to lessen your other studies.
The Gemara (5) says that Rebbi Yehuda HaNasi had 2 sons, Shimon & Gamliel. Shimon was a bigger Talmid Chacham, but Gamliel had Yirat Shamiym like his forefathers. For that reason Raban Gamliel became the next leader of the Jewish people!
Sources: (1). Shabbat 31a(2). Y”D Siman 243:3(3). Meiri 31a, Mishneh Halachot Chelek 13 Siman 149(4). Siman 143(5). Ketubot 103bSara Schenirer wrote in her diaries that she studied Gemara, as part of the Chok l’Yisrael. Chok l’Yisrael had a daily portion of Chumash, Navi, Mishnayos, and Gemara, and she went through all of it.
As a rule, the more Torah women learn, the more “right-wing” they get. This has been noted and decried by many Jewish feminists.
Avi K, I don’t have the volume and chapter reference, and I’m not going to go looking for it now, but this is what he explicitly says in multiple places: Any gathering that is open to the public needs a mechitza, gatherings that are private, meaning that people can attend only by invitation, do not. Thus, he says, a wedding doesn’t need one, but a shiva house does.
By the way it is not true that all his children’s weddings were mixed. He did whatever the mechutonim wanted, so two were completely separate, one was mixed, and one was mostly separate with some mixed tables.
The problem is that women say birchas hatorah because they must know halachas that apply to them. In daf yomi, usually halachas are not learned.
I explained before that mixed does not mean ‘mixed’. Married couples can sit together and men next to men and women next to women.
Torah belongs to ALL jews
Milhouse, I read his teshuva on weddings and he does not say that there. If you cannot come up with a quote I will assume that it does not exist. In fact, there is no reason why an invitation should make a difference. Here is the quote from his teshuva on weddings. BTW, the Levush says in the Likutim that in his day they already had mixed seating and says that they were used to being around women in business so it was no big deal.
Women’s Schar Torah comes by their helping their husband and sons go learn Torah.
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