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Wolf, depends if its actually endothermic or exothermic LOL
OK, really hot OR really cold.
The Wolf
Wolf-
Speak the truth? Ok, please do.
What is the significance of something written in Shulchan Aruch?
I am not asking about mixed seating.
Or mixed swimming.
Or Al Tarbeh Sicha.
I am not asking what it isn’t.
I am not asking why frummies are wrong.
No negatives.
I am asking what it is. Not what it is not.
What difference does a statement in Shulchan Aruch make in our lives?
How should we treat a statement, from hundreds of years ago, based on the opinion of someone we never met – that is, R’ Yosef Karo, and R’ Moshe Isserles?
They also lived in very different times, and led very different lives.
What do their published words & opinions mean in our lives? That’s it.
Truth, please. That is what you speak, right? Please be clear and precise. What is it? What is it , in your honest opinion? What do you, personally, live by?
“i mamish don’t know where you come from! it’s much much much healthier, that the children grow up separately and when the time comes, they go out and get married. Everyone has taavos whether they are exposed to the opposite gender/not. What shtusim!”
SD, you feel that way possibly because you were brought up with that type of thinking. i was brought up in a frum environment where the genders mixed at every family get-together, Shabbos meal, simcha, etc. I went to a mixed yeshivah, but the boys were in one building and the girls in another. I think I was educated pretty well, both secularly AND Limudei Kodesh, and I was brought up to not be narrow-minded (not accusing you of being n-m, just saying it about myself).
It most certainly is not healthier to grow up believing that the opposite gender is an aveira waiting to happen. Did you read what you wrote? They should grow up separately and when the time comes, they go out and get married. Do you have any idea how many girls are terrified of starting to date for tachlis, after years of being totally separate from even talking to boys??? They never learned how to swim or even wade in knee deeep water, but they are being tossed overboard into the ocean and expected to win the Olympics! How much better if boys and girls can look at each other as friends, date in a healthy and non-pressured way, and get married to someone with whom they really enjoy conversing (oh wait a minute, you probably also feel that talking too much together is a bad idea. Sorry).
It is not shtuyos that I feel this way. I have observed a lot over the last almost six decades, and what I see today only serves to reinforce what I believe. I am profoundly sad that kids are not being brought up more like the way we were in my childhood and teen years. No one in my peer group would have accused someone of saying “shtusim,” for expressing an opinion.By the way, you mentioned where did I come from – I grew up in East New York.
Moq,
Your question is beside the point. I wasn’t arguing for violating the S”A. I was merely pointing out the fallacy of saying that a Rishon personally knows anyone alive today better than their family. You disagree? Fine, so you disagree.
The Wolf
Mods,
If you’re going to edit my responses, at least have the courtesy to mark them as such.
Thank you,
The Wolf
Any editing done to remove your constant self-denigrating remarks will be done without notation. Please have the courtesy to desist as you were politely asked to do so by the moderation staff.
Moq,
I had a more proper response, but the moderators chose to edit it.
The Wolf
the response was unchanged except for the removal of the self-denigrating comments
I know. Excellent. Wonderful. Splendid. Gevaltdik.
I appreciate that you respect my right to disagree. Excellent.
I now know what you weren’t saying.
I want to know what you are saying. Not just in this limited subject.
I am not implying anything. I merely have a simple question.
Could you please answer this simple question? Not what it’s not. What it is. Not what it doesn’t mean. What it does mean.
What difference does a statement in Shulchan Aruch make in our lives?
Speak the truth you champion!
Dear Mods, allow the truth to come to light! And perhaps, wolf, you are clever enough to write in a way that will avoid their wrath. Surely the dedication to truth will overcome all obstacles.
“Never mind the manner, which may or may not be good; but think only of the justice of my cause, and give heed to that: let the judge decide justly and the speaker speak truly.”
-The Apology Of Socrates (Plato)
“What is the significance of something written in Shulchan Aruch?”
That itself is worthy of a thread; there are cases where we don’t follow what is written in the S”A (or, for Ashkenazim, the Rema’s glosses). The methodology regarding how we pick and choose has never been adequately explained.
Charlie, you are correct, and I’d be happy to comment on a different thread. But that isn’t my question now.
oomis1105 – Yes, mixing boys and girls would result in more familiarity with how to communicate between genders, and that would make dating easier. However, many of us feel that it is not worth the aveiros that will undoubtedly occur.
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charliehall –
“”What is the significance of something written in Shulchan Aruch?”
That itself is worthy of a thread; there are cases where we don’t follow what is written in the S”A (or, for Ashkenazim, the Rema’s glosses). The methodology regarding how we pick and choose has never been adequately explained.”
That is because the method for arriving at a final, halacha li’maseh conclusion is itself a machlokes ha’poskim. However, I believe Moq was talking about the ramifications of a statement in the SA that is broadly accepted as halacha li’maseh (agreed upon by the Rema, MB, etc.).
I recently heard a shiur by a famous Rov from NY. He was expressing ideas on mitigating the Shidduch Crisis. One idea was, with permission of the Rabonim of the neighborhood/community (he expressed this factor a few times) someone sponsor a shiur in their home, where someone says Divrei Torah, invite (older) single men and women. Afterward there will be “facilitators” to (intelligently) set up matches.
From this I see a few things: 1. approval of the local rabonim 2. meeting that involves divrei torah 3. controlled environment. He had a few other interesting ideas as well.
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Mayan Dvash, why can singles meet at an event that does NOT involve a Dvar Torah? The dynamics of a shiur are very different from the dynamics of a social event. Why, if it must be a lecture, does it necessarily have to a Torah lecture? I am not chalilh against D”T (FAR from it), but it seems to me that if the lecture was about some issue of general interest i.e., politics, medical ethics, current events, that it might lend itself to a wider variety of discussion among the singles. Not everyone can intelligently discuss Torah, sad to say, but virtually every To, Dick, and Heshy has an opinion on politics.
“Yes, mixing boys and girls would result in more familiarity with how to communicate between genders, and that would make dating easier. However, many of us feel that it is not worth the aveiros that will undoubtedly occur.”
very true. It’s funny, this brings to mind, when my older brother was going to start going out. This particular brother was EXTREMELy shy of all females, in certain areas, even his sisters. I remember telling my parents and thinking how bad i felt for him. All his life he’s taught not to look/talk to girls and now he has to spend time with and speak – face to face, with a girl, a girl that he doesn’t know from adam! (i was in high school then, but i still felt SOOO bad for him) B”h he was lucky and didn’t do too much dating, the first girl he was set up with, he got engaged to.
but it’s still the best way. It’s still overrides the theory of mixing the kids when they’re young.
OOmis – I doubt the Rov meant then and there. Just the shadchunnim at that shiur would make shidduchim amongst the group, just with members of that group. Then they could go out at a later time.
“However, many of us feel that it is not worth the aveiros that will undoubtedly occur.”
As I have said all along, some of you have such little faith in our frum kids. My friends’ children, all of whom are very frum and shomrei the mitzvos related to tznius, and my own children, are quite used to speaking and mixing with the opposite gender. It really is sad that our society has confused friendship and normal conversation with an inevitable lead in to arayos.
Health, my daughters have been to such home-based get-togethers. The boys sat on one side, the girls on another, and the shiur was NOT conducive to a relaxed atmosphere. they would do better to have someone like the author of the book about Shidduch Dating, get up and speak, encouraging them to participate in a question and answer session. That is a great way to break the ice and have the boys and girls suss out what type of personalities are present.
While many people are quite capable of holding normal conversations with the opposite gender without it leading to arayos (although how do you know how frequently these conversations lead to hirhur?), there are always some who will take the “friendship” too far. Why don’t we do all that we can to prevent this? Are those people not worthy of our Ahavas Yisroel?
Oomis, you can’t be sure these kids you are so trusting of didn’t engage in sin as a result. They wouldn’t exactly let you in on the details of their inappropriate behaviors, or do it in public…
So guilty until proven innocent huh?
Helpful, you are not supposed to have a chashash on someone for no reason. You are supposed to be dan l’chaf zechus. We do not presume people will sin every chance they get. We expect Bnei Torah to act as Bnei Torah. I guess I have more faith in them than you do. And by the way, in my circles it would be very hard to NOT know if one’s kids were misbehaving. When kids start sneaking around (and in homes where they are brought up to be open and are trusted) ANY parent can immediately tell when something is off with a child. I don;t know how old you are, or if you have kids, but whenever one of mine was up to something (when a child, of course) I immediately knew it. There is just a difference in that child,a look. Something. It cannot be hidden, when there is a normal relationship between parent and child.
oomis: paragraph 2 was just the observations I made about that specific Aitzah given by the one giving the shiur. He never said it had to be Divrei Torah.
Why isn’t anyoen making the main issue “hirhur”? Even if it’s true that mixing boys and girls wouldn’t lead to an aveira, you are far from guarenteed that the boys won’y have hirhur.
OOmis – No Rov is condoning speeches for men and women to get to know each other. The shadchan in that senario just works with a small group of people to make shidduchim. They don’t do it on their own. I personally don’t see anything wrong with people doing it on their own. People can get to know each other in Coed schools or in the workplace.
oomis1105 – “some of you have such little faith in our frum kids… We do not presume people will sin every chance they get.”
According to you, why did the Rabbonim make the issurim of yichud, negiah, etc? Why didn’t they “have faith” in the people?
We see that when dealing with the yetzer hara, this is not the correct approach. As has previously been mentioned, the Gemora says “ain apitropis l’arayos”(“there is no gaurdin for arayos”): when it comes to this particular yetzer hara, nobody can claim to be totally immune. Again, most people will undoubtedly stay clean, but some people are almost definitely going to end up doing aveiros. And as tomim tihye and says who mentioned, many people will definitely fall to the “lighter” aveiros like hirhurim, staring, etc, and that alone is more than enough reason not to mix genders.
“And by the way, in my circles it would be very hard to NOT know if one’s kids were misbehaving. When kids start sneaking around (and in homes where they are brought up to be open and are trusted) ANY parent can immediately tell when something is off with a child. I don;t know how old you are, or if you have kids, but whenever one of mine was up to something (when a child, of course) I immediately knew it. There is just a difference in that child,a look. Something. It cannot be hidden, when there is a normal relationship between parent and child.”
I simply cannot believe that you can even think that a secret “cannot be hidden” from a child/young adults parents. The stories I can tell you…
“whenever one of mine was up to something… I immediately knew it”
By definition, you do not know what you do not know. Therefore, you cannot possibly say that you know everything your children did, because if they did manage to hide something (or several somethings), you wouldn’t know it!
” We do not presume people will sin every chance they get.”
we most certainly do!
or at least that they “might” sin
the Tanach, Gemorrah, Midrashim, Mussar Seforim, Rishonim, Achronim, Rabbaim and Gedolim of today, are full of warnings to stay far from temptation. this is the very essence of all gedorim instituted by the Gedolim throughout our history.
mw excellent points
mw , i couldn’t agree more. Great points.
Mod 80:
The question boils down to what exten you will put up gedarim. Most people I know have no problem walking past a McDonalds even though you can smell their food. The opposite is here where lots of people think mixed seating is wrong.
dunno
No comparison at all.
Mcdonalds = Arayos????????????????
Very well stated everyone but
OOmis – i am having trouble ageeing with any of your latest statements (i usually do, thats why i’m mentioning it). I dont remember the exact quote but Rav Moshe said that inter-gender relationships cannot be simply a “just friends” relationship (there’s a fancy word for it i forgot sorry), its just not the way humans were built. Although I think this is one of those things thats very different for boys and girls (I am talking from the guy-side)
and like ‘says who’ so beautifully stated, there is a huge aveira present called ‘hirhur’, that if you think your kids (or grandkids?;-) will just go and ‘socialize’ and it wont lead to hirhurim or any other aveiros ur terribly terribly mistaken (maybe this has changed over the times being that ur probly more than 4 decades older than me).
And ther is no bigger distraction from learning and focusing on growing than this yetzer hara of socializing, arayos, etc.
VK”L
“According to you, why did the Rabbonim make the issurim of yichud, negiah, etc? Why didn’t they “have faith” in the people?”
It’s not according to me, but it is an opinion with which I concur, that in those times when men and women were separated most of the time, it WAS potentially enticing for them to be in yichud together, and they could not be trusted. The laws regarding concubines and more than one wife, sleeping with zonas (look at Yehudah and Tamar’s story), were culturally very different, and I imagine the taivahs were succumbed to more easily. I am not saying NO one misbehaves or sins. Only a fool would think that. But I think we attribute negative feelings to all people, and presume they are all about to commit arayos, and I think that is the wrong way to look at someone. Maybe we should not let people buy food in the supermarket, eiother. they might eat fleishigs and milchigs together. That cheeseburger smelled mighty tempting.
Dov – platonic is the word you meant. I would not presume to disagree with R’ Moshe, but R’ Moshe ZT”L had mixed seating at his simcha. I have had platonic friends all my life, and believe me there were no hirhurim on my side, and if there were any on the part of my male friends, they never let on in any way. They were all gentlemen. The same hirhurim you are worried about can also occur in a dating relationship or even in SHul on Shabbos. Do you think no guy has ever obsessed over the girl that did not go out with him again, when he was eager to see HER a second time? If someone wants to have thoughts, he will have them irrespective of whether or not he is in a mixed group.
It is how we ACT, in spite of our thoughts, that defines us as menschen or not. And while hirhurei haleiv can be a problem (and there was a korban given for that), realistically, a hirhur can appear any time, and in this day and age, I believe it is more likely when one is NOT used to being around opposite gendered people. I suppose we have to agree to disagree. Talk to me in about thirty years or so, and we’ll see how we both feel on the subject. (hope I’m still around, if Moshiach has not come by then)
Platonic thats the word thanx..
“or even in SHul on Shabbos”
yes very well stated the socializing in shuls these days is also a huge problem and must be dealt with. good point oomis.
Of course your rite hirhurim can happen at anytime but by putting urself or your kids in a situation where he or she is surrounded with taiva, ur asking for hirhurim to happen and looking at women is also an aveira, as well as hearing (kol isha) and talking to them.
and talking to you in 30 yrs is irrelevent – it’s now when im younger, without pas b’sali, that i have to put up with these issues.
“and presume they are all about to commit arayos”
What your looking at as the problem is ‘committing’ arayos, but the torah says “Lo Sikrivu” – the coming close itself (i.e. thinkin, seeing, hearing, talking to, talking about) is the aveira itself. It doesnt say Lo Sikrivu by cheesebergers so u can smell it if you’d like but arayos is a completely different story, coming close to the aveira is deemed by the torah as an aveira itself.
Lastly, “Maybe we should not let people buy food in the supermarket, either”
this may not be what you were talking about but its true. Do you ever see your rebbi or rosh yeshiva (hopefully you do have one) in a mall, shopping center, or other place prone to pritzus? I dont. Not going out to certain places, even tho everyone else does, is not crazy (for men). your yetzer hara never dies it doesnt matter how old you are. You cannot be in a place where ther could be pritzus if you dont have to be. send ur wife or something…ya living a torah life requires some mesiras nefesh
Mod-80 – Thanks, and well said yourself!
SDHN – Thanks!
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dunno – “Mod 80: The question boils down to what exten you will put up gedarim. Most people I know have no problem walking past a McDonalds even though you can smell their food. The opposite is here where lots of people think mixed seating is wrong.”
Thats because you only need to stay away from temptations (as Modd-80 said), and most people you know probably little to no tayveh to eat McDonalds. But if they did, then yes they should stay away from it.
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oomis1105 – “in those times when men and women were separated most of the time, it WAS potentially enticing for them to be in yichud together, and they could not be trusted.”
I was always under the impression that just the opposite: if the great people of then had to be so careful, how much more so do we now after so much yiridas hadoros have to be super careful!
“Maybe we should not let people buy food in the supermarket, eiother. they might eat fleishigs and milchigs together. That cheeseburger smelled mighty tempting.”
As I explained earlier in this comment to dunno, the amount of precautions one must take about an aveira depends on how great your tayvah for it is. And seeing as nobody I know has a yetzer hara for treif that is anything close to a yetzer hara for arayos, I don’t believe these cases are comparable.
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Dovv – Very well said, I couldn’t agree more!
I was always under the impression that just the opposite: if the great people of then had to be so careful, how much more so do we now after so much yiridas hadoros have to be super careful!
well yes you thought that, but thats only because you base your reasoning on Torah concepts. maybe its about time you started paying more attention to the goyish ideas that are all around you.
oomis how could anyone disagree with your analysis?
youre right
certainly we, especially in america, are much less drawn to temptation than our Holy ancestors. How could anyone fail to notice that. make sure you tell this to your Rabbi, he probably needs to be straightened out on the matter.
Mod -80/ OOmis – Her reasoning makes sense even acc. to Torah logic. It could very well be that people who mingle the taavah is less, even for men, than previous generations. But even if this is true, it’s still ossur to mingle the sexes. If you have a gathering of singles to promote marriage, this would be mutter. But stam, for the sexes to be mingled, this is ossur.
Daas Torah is quite clear on this. the generations go down in greatness, their spiritual weakness and susceptibility to the Y’H increase as we get farther from Har Sinai.
applying logic as to why this is not true is not compatible with our Mesorah
the Takanos against immorality increased more and more as the generations deteriorated. It is not that later Gedolim were meaner or stricter than earlier ones, they Takanos increased because the need for them increased.
this point is not really arguable by anyone who has a depth of understanding of Torah and our history.
i wont belabor the point further
Mod-80 – “well yes you thought that, but thats only because you base your reasoning on Torah concepts”
Guilty as charged, and proud of it.
its just not true that exposure to a taivah weakens it
the opposite is well established as a Torah principle
and l’havdil a billion trillion havdalas as a psychological principle
but i am nevertheless not emphasizing my disagreement with that principle.
i am saying that taking that, or any other principle you want to believe in, and using it to argue with our mesorah (in this case to say that our matziv of immoral taivah and weakness is less than earlier generations)is a terrible darkness and could never have happened before our time of massive foolishness and CHUTZPA.
and to use our Holy father Yehuda as an example, without even a basic understanding of that incident, rather understanding it like a 4 year old cheder boy or a x-an minister,
is not less than a travesty
even though im sure intentions were good
and to the poster whos post was deleted, i have made no comment about anyones rightness in doing something or any comment, even implied, about her Rav. i am only referring to the statements she has made
and to use our Holy father Yehuda as an example, without even a basic understanding of that incident, rather understanding it like a 4 year old cheder boy or a x-an minister,
is not less than a travesty
If you don’t mind me branching off a bit on this point, most bochrim and Kollel understand the Torah as learned by a young child, the girls get much more of a limud of the depth of Tanach.
Perhaps it should be more emphasised, maybe in high school?
Mod -80 -“this point is not really arguable by anyone who has a depth of understanding of Torah and our history.”
No one was arguing the point of “Niskatnu hadoros”
“(in this case to say that our matziv of immoral taivah and weakness is less than earlier generations)is a terrible darkness and could never have happened before our time of massive foolishness and CHUTZPA.”
If someone else would have posted this it would have been deleted. “Kol haposel b’momo posel.” Btw, it’s a gemorrah that says the yetzer hora for Giluy Aroyos is less than previous generations. The gemorrah says Chazal destroyed the yetzer hora for avodah zorah and tried to destroy the yetzer hora for Zenus, but the world including the animals stopped reproducing. So Chazal blinded it. It’s now weakened. How is it weakened? There is no more taivah for relatives. But this doesn’t mean that the rest of the taivah for non-relatives is just as strong or stronger. It could be in a weakened state, even though it exists. In Yehdah’s generation the Yetzer Hora for Arayos was greater than later generations.
Moderator 80
I’m always fascinated by references to our Holy Ancestors and the myth that they were on such a high madrega, correct me If I’m wrong, these are the same people who were at Har Sinai, krias yam sof, and other muracles and still created a golden calf, the same people who refused to stop worshipping idols throughout the time of thr First Beis Hamikdash. The same people whoignored the admonitions of the Neviim,who became Hellenists, Sadducccees, and created Christianity? If they were o holy, why does the Gemorra spen so much time duscussing theft, shady business dealings etc?
Lesschumras- They were on a higher level and even so they sinned. So Chazal saw the need to destroy the yetzer hora for avodah zora and to weaken the yetzer hora for arayos. Chazal figured if the holy previous generations can’t withstand these yetzer horas -how much more will the later generations not be able to?
Moderators – I am disappointed that such blatant disregard for the previous generations was allowed on this forum.
lesschumras – First of all, watch what you call a myth. A little respect, please! It always intrigued me that many of the people who bash the “frummies” tend to speak so disparagingly of (or even show blatant disrespect to) the Rabbonim, Midrashim, Minhagim, and in general any part of Judiasim that they do not not fully at the first glance. I think it says a thing or two about their commitment to Judiasim in general, don’t you?
Secondly, as Health mentioned, the yetzer hara for avodah zorah is no longer around, so we cannot fathom how strong it was. There’s the famous story of the Rebbi who mocked King Menashe for his dedication to avodah zorah, and then Menashe came to him in a dream and said something like “if you would have been alive in those days, you would have run after avodah zorah all day”.
“If they were o holy, why does the Gemorra spen so much time duscussing theft, shady business dealings etc?”
Please. The Gemora did not only discus cases that were brought to the courts: quite the contrary, they went through every obscure case they could think of so future generations would know what to do no matter what came up.
less chumros:
You’re thinking seems to be validated by tanach. We seem to have Yehuda consorting with a prostitute, the dor midbar worshiping the Eigel, and Dovid hamelech cheating with a married woman and killing her husband.
The Alter of Slabodka, in Ohr Hatzafun addresses this issue. He says that the Torah, in recounting the failings of tzadikim, exaggerates them. This is because on their level, even minor failings become great sins.
This is evidenced by the story of Reuven. The pasuk relates that Reuven lived with Bilhah, his father’s pilegesh. Chazal tell us that what he actually did was to move his father’s bed from the tent of Bilhah to his mother’s tent. His intention was to stand up for the honor of Leah, that she should not be secondary to a pilegesh.
Nevertheless, the Torah writes that he lived with Bilhah, as this seemingly minor sin was counted as if he had violated his father by living with his wife. Indeed, Chazal say that had Reuven not been inspired by Yehudah to admit his sin, he would have forfeited his share in Olam Habah.
Similarly are all the sins recounted against the Avos. The sin itself was always minor by our standards, yet, is “blown out of proportion” in the recounting, in order to show the true seriousness in light of their lofty levels.
Often, by reading the midrashim on the incident, one can discover the actual story. However, even if it still seems serious, it is axiomatic that anyone who is considered by the Torah and chazal to have been a tzadik, will have only sinned on minor levels.
Ot was notmy intent to disrespect our Rabbonim.
It ws not my intent to disrespect the Rabbonim, Midrashim, Minhagim, or to bash frummies.
However, the responses illustrate my point. Why is it so hard to accept the fact that our ancestors were human beings with ordinary frailties? Why is it necessary to make believe that Yehuda didn’t do what he did with Tamar? His greatness was illustrated in admitting what he did and doing Thshuva.
How does acknowledging their actions equate to a lack of respect or diminish our belief in Hashem one iota?
that they do not not fully at the first glance
less chumros:
There is no reason to discuss what would have been if Yehudah had been anything close to what you refer to as “human”, because it simply is not the case. This is stated outright in gemaros and midrashim.
lesschumrus i am astonished at you! how can you even bring that as any example? do you know how many meforshim discuss that? Do you understand the whole story clearly???? How can you say “Why is it so hard to accept the fact that our ancestors were human beings with ordinary frailties?”, no one is saying he didn’t do what he did, but take a good look at the meforshim. Some say he didn’t have bechira, i’m almost sure it’s a zohar that states that moshiach comes from yehuda and the satan would stop him from being born so it has to look “not so kosher” both by tamar and yehuda and by rus and boaz. But how can you bring that here? And not only that, but it shows us how scary it is, the y”hara , so kol vechomer… backed to mixed seating that should be avoided at all costs.
lesschumrus, one more thing, no one is saying that previous generations weren’t humans. But there is Yeridas hadoros and today more than ever, the morality of the world has taken a plunge for the worst so we have to be extra extra careful.
just btw, i know of a rav who was asked to be mesader kedushim and said he can’t “because maybe people in your circles don’t have tayvos anymore, but i do and i can’t come to a chasuna without a mechitza”. i thought his wording was very good, he tried not to offend them but his point got across.
Just to add a sociological reason why mixed seating is not as prevalent anymore is the chassidishization of American Jewry. After the war, many of the rabbanim had Chassidic or Hungarian influences and that stuck.
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