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I think tou are giving too much clout to the “yetzer hara” as if its an actual identity. All “it” is is you. Do I think that there is something wrong with mature boys and girls mingaling and talking with eachother? no. Do I think that our frum society has made it into such a big deal that now so many people just want to do it, and then bad thing end up coming out of it for no reason? 1,000%
Those who underestimate the power of the dark side are doomed to fall to it.
Do not underestimate the power of Arayos. Hashem created a strong Tayva for a reason, and strong it is.
If you choose the quick and easy path … you will become an agent of evil
And last: Control, control. You must learn control!
As mentioned many times on this thread, for the many previously outlined reasons, going through a shadchan vis-a-vis the shidduch dating process GREATLY reduces the risks versus picking someone up in college, at a wedding party, or at a bar or disco.
Helpful:
As mentioned many times on this thread, the same risks you speak about when picking up somebody along are present when using the shidduch system.
I just find it so telling that so many of the CR members seem to assume that getting together in a mixed group AUTOMATICALLY leads to sin. I think first of all, that some people’s minds are too troubled by the fear that our kids are so poorly brought up that they have absolutely no way to go but to SIN. That says a lot about how confident we are that we have brought them up properly, Yeshivah education and our own teachings.
Second, I think that if our children are old enough to get married or date altogether, they are old enough to exhibit a little self-control, which they seem to show quite well on their shidduch dates. A date is a date. If the boy and girl are emesdig frum menschen, they will act properly wherever they are. OTHERWISE, they might be phonies and hypocrites, who can only be trusted when they are on a halachic leash. The true eved Hashem is one who learns to controls his taivahs in spite of himself, not one who needs to become a “nazir” in order to have self-control.
I trust my adult children to behave with derech eretz and halachic propriety, because in all circumstances to date, whether in one-gender or mixed-gender events, they have ALWAYS shown me that they are trustworthy. I am saddened that so many appear to have no faith at all in their young people. Maybe that is because the young people might feel like kids being let loose in a candy store for the first time. These are just observations on my part, whether or not you might agree (and I am sure many of you will STRONGLY disagree, but it does not make me wrong, necessarily). In any case, I express my own feelings, obviously, based on my own extremely subjective observations of my own teenage years and those of my children and my friends’ children. I mean no disrespect to anyone here.
Sacrilige – “I think tou are giving too much clout to the “yetzer hara” as if its an actual identity”
And you make the yetzer hara sound like a fantasized creature who’s existence is in doubt. The yetzer hara exists, and he’s out to get every one of this. As I once heard in the name of one of the early chassidish rebbes (forgot which one), “you must think of the yetzer hara as a man standing over you with a sword, trying to cut your head off. And if you can’t think of him this way,it means he already has.” The first step in winning a war is to acknowledge you have an enemy. I apologize for the length of this rant, but it’s Elul and feel this topic is important.
“Do I think that there is something wrong with mature boys and girls mingaling and talking with eachother? no.”
Neither do I, assuming its for marriage purposes.
“Do I think that our frum society has made it into such a big deal that now so many people just want to do it, and then bad thing end up coming out of it for no reason? 1,000%”
No, “our frum society has made into such a big deal” precisely because bad things can (and often do) come out of it, and why take chances?
dunno – “Uh, how young do you think you can start college already? Usually graduating high school is a requirement.”
One can finish high school by 17 or 18, and that’s without taking shortcuts.
“You keep on repeating yourself as do I regarding meeting at a wedding – again SJSinNYC answers that.”
Answers what?
“I hate to inform you that not everyone on the “shidduch market” has the maturity you speak about.”
That may be true, but what does it have to do with anything?
“dunno”:
As elucidated, and enumerated, and explained many times by several members – no it is not.
There is risk in everything, but as previously explained in detail, it is greatly reduced in the shidduch system.
Oomis,
Your trust in them is greater than the Shulchan Aruchs and the Gedolim.
Your trust in them is greater than the Shulchan Aruchs and the Gedolim.
I think she probably knows her kids better than the Mechaber and the Gedolim.
The Wolf
MW,
A suggestion if I may…
Please insert a blank line between the quote and your response. It makes it much easier to read.
Thanks,
The Wolf
the Yetzer Horah IS an actual identity. He is a Malach.
in addition to the internal Yetzer HaRa
Wolf, you should know better than to say that here. Should I raise the hue and cry?
Those who underestimate the power of the dark side are doomed to fall to it.
Is that an exact quote?
Wolf, you should know better than to say that here. Should I raise the hue and cry?
Well, yes. We all know that extra blank lines are among the worst things a person could possibly suggest. I’m surprised the mods even let it through. 🙂
The Wolf
Dunno: “I am referring to a girl who will only want a guy who is at least 5″10. While she would never listen to any suggestion of a 5″8 boy, she meets one in college…likes him…and she learns that maybe his height isn’t such an important factor. In the case of shidduch dating this wouldn’t happen since she wouldn’t even end up meeting him. Same with a guy who decides he can only marry a size 2 girl and many other cases.”
You know, if your kids are so fargoyisht that they make an issue out of such narishkeiten, perhaps you SHOULD go all the way and expose them to the other gender? The shidduch system apparantly works well only in tandem with the Chassidish (known until quite recently as “Jewish”) way of looking for quality instead of quantity (or lack thereof, think size 2). “Az m’est shoin chazer, zol rinen fin burd.”
Moq: “Men & Women of all social strata, intelligence, and levels of religiosity have done stupid things they never would have dreamed of doing.”
At extremely different rates, you should add. 60% of “frum” kids sleeping around? Gevald geshrigen! In chasidish circles it’s less than 1%! Why? Because our men and boys are kept “far, far away from women”. Just proving the point of your otherwise excellent post.
I wasn’t talking to you, Wolf.
I was talking to the Wolf who posted just before you.
🙂
“Your trust in them is greater than the Shulchan Aruchs and the Gedolim”
That’s because the mechabeir and the Gedolim never met my kids! 🙂
oomis, NO! I just warned Wolf.
But don’t worry about the hue and cry- since you and Wolf are different genders, they won’t be able to pursue both of you at once 🙂
Wolf – “Your trust in them is greater than the Shulchan Aruchs and the Gedolim.
I think she probably knows her kids better than the Mechaber and the Gedolim.”
That doesn’t mean that we can change the halacha. As we know, Shlomo Hamelech was punished for having many horses and wives, even though he felt that the reasons stated in the pasuk did not apply to him. (Squeak, hope I made you proud:))
“A suggestion if I may… Please insert a blank line between the quote and your response. It makes it much easier to read.”
I actually used to do that, but for some reason if I put a double blank line it turns into one, and I felt it was more important have a unique separation between responses to different comments than between quotes and responses. However, I have recently picked up the _____ idea from lavdavka, so I’ll use that for the separation between responses between different comments. Like the new look?
_______________________________________________
Oomis 1105 – “I just find it so telling that so many of the CR members seem to assume that getting together in a mixed group AUTOMATICALLY leads to sin.”
I do not think that each and every mixed gathering is doomed to end in sin; however, I think that if all events are mixed, then yes, aveiros will almost certainly occur.
“I think first of all, that some people’s minds are too troubled by the fear that our kids are so poorly brought up that they have absolutely no way to go but to SIN. That says a lot about how confident we are that we have brought them up properly, Yeshivah education and our own teachings.”
As has been said before, the Gemera mentions the strength of the yetzer hara for arayos, and cautions how careful we must be about it. I don’t think it says anything about “how confident we are that we have brought them up properly, Yeshivah education and our own teachings” – I think it means that we feel that when it come to aveiros, better safe than sorry.
“I am saddened that so many appear to have no faith at all in their young people.”
There is a fine line between faith and naivete.
I am not naive. I believe that kids who are brought up properly will typically act properly. Will EVERY single frum kid who is brought up properly NEVER commit an aveira? No, and it WOULD be naive to think so. BUT,plenty of kid brought up in extremely separated environments are faced with the same taivos, and you know what – their lack of normal interaction with someone of a different gender, can and does lead to the commission of those same aveiros. They are just more secretive about it. When they rebel, they rebel in spades.
I do have faith in my children, and that faith has never let me down, because THEY have not let me down. I don’t need to watch my adult children 24/7 to know NONE of them will walk into a bar to meet a girl or guy, and in fact, ALL of them think it is very sleazy to sit in a lounge on a shidduch date, where OTHER people are meeting and drinking in order to pick up people.
That doesn’t mean that we can change the halacha.
I never said it should.
Helpful chose to put it in terms of trust. On those grounds, my comment is 100% accurate.
The Wolf
Wow…I see.
I think I’ve addressed all of this issue that I can. But I see basically the same arguements being played out over and over again in different threads.
These arguements have little to do with mixed seating, beaches, the role of women, tzinius, shaitels, kollel or the like. It’s like an old professor of mine used to say – you’ve got a catholic & protestant arguing about birth control.
How can I argue about what is and isn’t “appropriate” when we have two different dictionaries? I view with horror a married woman spending an afternoon with another woman’s husband – with or without children; but our definitions of horror are totally different.
This argument is about the role of Halacha in our lives; the role of logic & emotion, Mesorah & society, individualism and collectism, the wisdom of chazal and the wisdom of our age. The identity of a community, and what our ultimate ideals should be – and is a Torah a tax or a goal?
And ultimately, we have two very different visions of what it means to be a Torah Jew in the Twenty First century, following a Torah of 3000 years.
This arguement I cannot tackle, because it leaves the realm of what we have in common, and hence I have no tools with which to respond. Such arguements be definition cannot be argued, and instead are doomed to round in circles until the players get bored of ths subject, and start a new one, without ever really hitting the real issue, because the real issue is far too deep to really deal with.
Morever, it cannot really be argued or proven, because the issue is in the very prism which we view the world. A camera can take a picture of everything, except for itself. We cannot argue about our prism. These, like Frodo’s ring, can only be confronted in the fires of which they were forged, in the realm which is beyond words & logic and certainly beyond debate.
From a sociological perspective, this arguement is creeping up all over the religous world, specifically the Yeshivish community of America, but even in the Charedi world of Eretz Yisrael. And it is fascinating to watch it unfold here, again and again and again…
But, I now see, as I suspected before, that I have little to contribute here. Mea Culpa.
i don’t think this is an issue of whether or not we would actually sin, it’s an issue of creating gedarim so that we can’t even come close. as chaza”l say, “Do not trust yourself until the day of your death” and they were referring to a tzaddik of 80 years old who went over to the tzeddukim after a lifetime of dedication to Torah and mitzvos. His chinuch and self chinuch are not up to debate – the commentaries clearly state (don’t ask the sources, it’s a quarter after two in the morning) that he was a great great tzaddik – and yet he STILL went over to ‘the dark side.’ how much more so we, who are not tzaddikim as he was, cannot trust ourselves to be good all the time. better the geder and feel a little foolish sometimes, than none at all and sin even once.
chas veshalom i do not feel foolish for being makpid to only have separate seating wherever i am; i said that for those who do feel that way.
We are talking about FRUM boys and girls of an age to get married sitting at a table together, talking together, and eating a meal – NOT about going over to The Dark Side…
You assume that our young people are all just chomping at the bit to commit some unnameable aveiros. Maybe some of them ARE, and they would do it regardless. Most frum kids who are brought up in a normal environment where everything is not assered to them every five minutes (when it is not intrinsically assur from Hashem), do NOT behave in the way that you fear. Yes, maybe SOMEONE will, but it is not because of mixing the genders in a public place, it is because there is a fundamental behavior censor chip missing from them. JMO, and I grew up in a very frum environment where we ALWAYS had mixed groups. No one went off the derech, and I think we all made our parents proud.
moq – wow, you said it so eloquently and well, on target.
Moq – As usual, you hit the nail on the head.
oomis1105 – First of all, I believe the reading comprehension of the CR members is at the point where we can figure out the gist of your arguments without you putting the key words in capitals for us.
“You assume that our young people are all just chomping at the bit to commit some unnameable aveiros. Maybe some of them ARE, and they would do it regardless. Most frum kids who are brought up in a normal environment where everything is not assered to them every five minutes (when it is not intrinsically assur from Hashem), do NOT behave in the way that you fear. Yes, maybe SOMEONE will, but it is not because of mixing the genders in a public place, it is because there is a fundamental behavior censor chip missing from them.”
And yet again, we hit the same arguments.
I believe that all people have a yetzer hara for arayos, and therefore we shouldn’t make it any easier for the yetzer hara to seduce them into sin.
You, to the best of my understanding, believe that the yetzer hara for arayos is not natural, but a result of too many chumros (“Most frum kids who are brought up in a normal environment where everything is not assered to them every five minutes… do NOT behave in the way that you fear”). Furthermore, you apparently believe that there are two types of people in this world: those who will always do aveiros, no matter what situation they’re in, and those who will never do aveiros, no matter what situation they are in (“Maybe some of them ARE, and they would do it regardless… Yes, maybe SOMEONE will, but it is not because of mixing the genders in a public place, it is because there is a fundamental behavior censor chip missing from them”), and that people are not at all affected by their surroundings.
As Moq pointed out, we keep getting back to these same points. Perhaps it is time we agree to disagree.
Kol hakavod, Moq. I’ve come to the same conclusion.
Not to be an echo chamber, but Moq summed it up as elequently and on the button as possible.
There is nothing more to add to that, or the conversation for that matter.
And like he said, his point is applicable to many discussions — including probably a majority of CR threads here.
Apusutayid -“Touro College is separate by design,because its what halacha wants, not because “that’s what the customers want”.”
Your story might be true that you heard, but it doesn’t mean that’s the reason. Touro made a school in Flatbush to cater to frum Jews, not because they held you can’t have a coed school, because they have coed schools. Once you have a separate school with mostly frum Jews, they weren’t going to change it to coed. There is no such halacha saying you can’t go to coed schools, that’s something you made up.
Moq – While I agree the ideal way of marriage might be through Shidduchim, what about the people who noone will redd them shidduchim? What about the people who get redd shidduchim, but noone they are redd to are willing to go out with them because of loshon hora. These people need some sort of way to get married. If these people happen to go to a college which is coed and find their shidduch, this is better than being single for life. This might not be ideal, but at least it’s a solution. It isn’t the job of Touro or anyone else to create a school for this purpose. Most colleges are coed. I don’t think people in our generation have the feeling for singles as a Komochah! You can’t just say something is ossur because our generation acts differently than the gemmorah’s generation in regards of how to find a spouse.
MW13, I put key words in caps, ebcause I want to emphasize them in the way I do when I am saying those words aloud.
You also presume incorrectly about me. I never said there are no inherent yetzer hara for arayos in people. What I (thought I had) distinctly said is that that taivah becomes more obvious when the genders do not mix in a natural way. When children grow up in a naturally mixed environment, they do not look at each other the same way that that someone does who has never been allowed to have a normal social relationship with a female or male (depending on their opposite gender). Of course ALL people have taivos for arayos, if we did not, the species would not continue. But the fear some posters here have of boys and girls having a normal conversation with each other in a mixed group, seems to me to be unnecessary. Most kids who are brought up frum, have a strong moral core (that 60% thing is nonsense, and motzi shem ra on 60% of our frum kids). If you don’t believe that, then don’t. My experience tells me that my observations are reasonable.
“60% of “frum” kids sleeping around”
There is no way this is true across the board. There are some schools that are known as “party schools” like Rutgers. But most schools – absolutely not.
I have many, many friends who went to coed colleges and they did not give in to temptations. In fact, aside from one who was looking to leave halacha behind from the moment she stepped onto campus, all stayed 100% frum.
(aside from the fact that dorming in college is a different story than coed functions)
If I may add my penny or two…
Regarding married couples seated together at some function…
It is our nature to become accustomed to our spouse’s pluses and minuses, so…
Mrs. Satisfied discreetly observes as Mr. Capitalist across the table pours a drink for his wife. Hmm, it’s been a while since Mr. Satisfied has done that for her… 🙁
and Mrs. Capitalist has some nice jewelry… been a long while since Mr. Satisfied has been able to make such purchases… 🙁
and while Mr. Capitalist barely looks older than he did at his wedding (even has hair)… Mr. Satisfied’s belly has grown faster than his salary… 🙁
Needless to say, Mrs. disSatisfied leaves at the function’s end.
No, nothing terrible happened.
ToTi, do you honestly think women do not notice jewelry when they are sitting only with women? And what do you think we are talking about in those single gender groups, OUR HUSBANDS and children. And if you think we have nothing better to do than compare our friends’ husbands physiques to our own husband’s than you really do not think much of us ladies, I guess. Women are not as shallow as that, for the most part.
OOMIS! what shetusim!!!! ” When children grow up in a naturally mixed environment, they do not look at each other the same way that that someone does who has never been allowed to have a normal social relationship with a female or male (depending on their opposite gender). ” i mamish don’t know where you come from! it’s much much much healthier, that the children grow up separately and when the time comes, they go out and get married. Everyone has taavos whether they are exposed to the opposite gender/not. What shtusim!
Secondly, tomim tehyeh has a point, just like having couples together for a seuda and then, you know so naturally, one husband is speaking to the other’s wife… and it’s not only the women who compare husbands, sorry tomim, men do compare wives too. And OOmis, you’re right, women are not so shallow. So it’s not good for both sides.
Oomis, my post did not refer to people like you; many people have not built marriages as strong as yours, unfortunately.
My point was that sitting in a group setting can more easily lead to unhealthy comparisons than sitting separately. IMO, the jewelry factor plays a greater role when women are sitting next to their husbands; to an insecure woman, Plonis’ jewelry may state, “Her husband earns more than mine,” or “Her husband cares about her more than mine does.”
You speak about your husband when sitting with other women?
Well, I did think highly of us ladies until you mentioned this:)
And I agree that, for the most part, women are not so shallow as to compare male physiques, but, like you said, only “for the most part.” While those who want to compare their husbands to others will find ample opportunity to do so, would their test not be reduced if the men were out of sight?
Can we bring ourselves to sacrifice the time seated near our spouses so that some of us would be spared the test of comparing? Would it not be an act of Ahavas Yisroel?
How sad that our Gedolim worked long and hard to restore standards to Klal Yisroel only to see a new generation trying to destroy it. Mixed seating was the norm in the early 20th century, TV was also. The rabbanim worked with each individual to change it. They did so and we have special “kedushadige” weddings. Homes free of TV/movies. Today there is a new generation that is trying to destroy it. Grab on to the beauty. DO not think that you know what hashem wants more than a rav steeped in Torah and learning. If you rabbi feels it is okay, Why not look for greater standards. Maybe mixed seating won’t bring to sin but it wont be “marbeh kevod shamayim” and it definitely won’t bring to greater yiras shamayim. And for those that say let singles meet. I say first of all let the Torah decide how singles should meet. (And from the people I know that went to single events, they say it is a waste of time.)
Yidden it is Ellul. It is not a time to convince other religous Jews to lower their standards, It is a time to search for zechusim, strengthen ourselves to do more and look for ways to be closer to hashem. Hashem loves you and he wants you close.
I say the above with the wish that this year rosh hashana we will be celebrating in Yerushalayim gathered from all ends of the world.
With tears in my eyes,
“Your trust in them is greater than the Shulchan Aruchs and the Gedolim.”
“That’s because the mechabeir and the Gedolim never met my kids! :)”
The Psaks of the Shulchan Aruch and the Gedolim are based on the Halacha of the Torah, which is the word of Hashem.
Do you know your kids better than Hashem? Do you know Halacha better than the Shulchan Aruch and the Gedolim?
When Hashem gave us Halochos, He gave them to all Jews to observe; and only He, the Creator, knows best what is correct for the Jews, his Creations. He didn’t make it a subjective decision, based on a person’s reasoning.
Exactly when was it that Hashem said it is assur for boys and girls to talk to each other ort sit together at a simcha? Please quote me HASHEM’S exact words on the subject, not some source in some obscure sefer somewhere that was not based on halacha, but rather on the personal feelings of its author. ALL of kall Yisroel stood together at Har Sinai. They all marched together in the midbar.
And yes, Hashem knows my kids far better than I do, but I know them better than the Gedolim who never met them, do.
Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer 21 says men are required to stay far away from women.
The Psaks of the Shulchan Aruch and the Gedolim are based on the Halacha of the Torah, which is the word of Hashem.
Do you know your kids better than Hashem?
Wow — that’s quite the leap of logic there. Firstly, we weren’t talking about HKBH, we were talking about the gedolim. I believe that a parent knows their kids far better than any gadol who lived 500 years before they were born. If that makes me an apikorus in your opinion, then so be it.
The Wolf
It might not make you an apikorus c’v, but it makes you wrong.
The Gedolim are far more knowledgeable about human nature (especially on aroyos issues) than any of us.
After reading these posts i was suprised .At my sister’s wedding there was mixed seating but separate dancing. But now it makes me worried after hearing such dumb reasons to break off an engagement because the parents cannot agree on something like separate seating that chas veshalom that should happen to people whose parents would rather mixed seating.
The Gedolim are far more knowledgeable about human nature (especially on aroyos issues) than any of us.
Perhaps on the populace as a whole, but not on the individual level. There’s no way a Rishon, who lived in a different place, a different era, spoke a different language and lived in a different culture knows my kids better than I and my wife do.
The Wolf
An ehrlich yid would not agree to a shidduch where seperate seating was not a given.
An ehrlich yid would not agree to a shidduch where seperate seating was not a given.
I guess I’m not an ehrlich yid. But we all knew that already, didn’t we…?
The Wolf
Don’t worry Wolf, I’ll join you 🙂
Don’t worry Wolf, I’ll join you 🙂
Ah… you might want to rethink that. I’m in for a nice, long, eternal super-toasty afterlife. I’m not so sure you really want to join me.
The Wolf
I’m getting in line behind SJSinNYC and the Wolf.
When I get married I plan on having mixed seating and separate dancing, just like my parents did (which, btw, all of my father’s rabbeim attended (there are pictures) and the leading Rabbi’s of the community).
from Rabbi Twerskis ten steps book:
“To paraphrase the Chofetz Chaim: Just as one may not denigrate another person, one may not denigrate oneself…self denigration is not anivus (humility). Anivus is self-effacement, which is a commendable trait; self denigration is not.”
Wolf, depends if its actually endothermic or exothermic LOL
Anivus is self-effacement, which is a commendable trait; self denigration is not.
I never claimed to be an Anav. I do claim, however, to be one who speaks the truth. That’s one of the few positive character traits that I have.
The Wolf
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