Mixed Seating

and if it was, who was going to into a dorm anyway?

Tell that to the sem girls.

Anyway, not sure what we are discussing, it seems we are on different wavelengths.

I think? we agree that there should be a separate college, and Touro fits the need.

“Yes, I firmly believe mixing college-aged members of different genders will almost certainly lead to negiah, yichud, and worse. I haven’t seen any logical rebuttal of this argument, only an unintelligent brush-off.”

The only option I can give you is to walk through a co-ed college which frum people attend. Among the run of the mill frum people I haven’t seen problems. It’s pretty hard to show something that doesn’t exist; however, I am offering you a solution to see that it is not the way you think.

Health:

1. I’m a girl and didn’t have the opportunity to ask guys because I wasn’t in class with them. I do know, however, several guys that want it too.

2. I never said the school (i.e. administration) wants it. You are right that they probably couldn’t care less. It’s a lot of the student body that would appreciate it.

3. Most girls from Flatbush don’t need the commute to the city when they have a campus right here. As I said before, most frum people aren’t specifically going to a college because it’s mixed; they are going for various other reasons.

sof davar hakol nishma:

Valid point.

“how many very very high up private goyish schools have separate classes? a lot, exactly because of this”

As I pointed out, the number of all male secular colleges in America is now down to three.

My grandfather z’l was very opposed to coeducation. He was an English teacher and real traditionalist in education. But now colleges and universities are run too much like businesses. You have to give the customer what they want. And that means lots of As and lots of “social life” possibilities. I can’t follow the opinion that coeducation is asur because Rav Soloveitchik was my rav’s rav (and I teach in one the graduate/professional divisions of YU, all of which are required to be co-ed), but it is a shame that there are now so few single gender options for those who want them.

dunno – “The only option I can give you is to walk through a co-ed college which frum people attend. Among the run of the mill frum people I haven’t seen problems.”

Again, even if people are doing improper things they aren’t going to do it in the middle of a public college now, are they?

“It’s pretty hard to show something that doesn’t exist; however, I am offering you a solution to see that it is not the way you think.”

Again, you chose an unintelligent put-down instead of a logical argument. Ah well, at least you included some logic this time.

SJSinNYC – “Aren’t we talking about those of marriagable age?”

In the classic jewish style, I”m going to answer your question with a question: when you have mixed seating at a wedding, are only those of marriageable age mixed, or is everybody? In all the weddings I’ve gone to, its been all or nothing. And if you mix 16-18 year olds, you’re not asking for trouble, you’re getting down on your hands and knees and begging for trouble.

“As an aside, you would be surprised how many of my right wing friends were not shomer once they got engaged”

I’m very sorry to here that, and I hope they did t’shuvah (if not, Yom Kippur is coming, maybe you should remind them). But what does that have to do with whether there should be mixed seating or not?

Good question, bbyg.

One of the biggest problems with non-shidduch dating (i.e. meeting in a pizza shop or college or at a party), is the lack of research prior to the meeting. Once the first boy-girl meeting happens, there is a huge risk emotions will overtake logic. Even if research conducted AFTER they already met shows they are not a good match (i.e. background info, etc.), the couple may refuse to break it off.

I think meeting on ones own dismisses the questions of “stack or scrape,” “plastic tablecloth or not,” and the like.

While research shouldn’t be completely eliminated, meeting on ones own allows a person to overlook things they wouldn’t have before. Now before you jump on me and say we specifically don’t want them to overlook what they want because it will result in divorce, step back for a second. I am referring to a girl who will only want a guy who is at least 5″10. While she would never listen to any suggestion of a 5″8 boy, she meets one in college…likes him…and she learns that maybe his height isn’t such an important factor. In the case of shidduch dating this wouldn’t happen since she wouldn’t even end up meeting him. Same with a guy who decides he can only marry a size 2 girl and many other cases.

dunno – “Like SJSinNYC said: improper things can happen with shidduch dating also. It seems like you have no argument for the actual meeting in public. Once two people determine they would like to continue seeing each other they go on dates no different than shidduchim – alone, and without adult supervision.”

Again, the only people that go on shidduchim dates are, by definition, serious singles looking to get married. However, the people at a wedding can be there for any reason and are not necessarily as mature as those ready to get married.

When you skip the research it may be true you skip the silly stuff (plastic tableclothes et al), but you are at the same time risking missing the serious stuff you need to research. (By time you do it, the strong emotions may have kicked in.)

You risk throwing out the baby with the bath water.

SJS –

I’m sorry, but you have your head in the sand if you at the same believe that you’ve been to many coed functions and nothing has happened (!) yet so many are not shomer during engagement. HELLO?

Do you know what the rates of frum kids on campus sleeping around is? Over 60%. I heard this from a Hillel Rabbi (a very frum one). Do you know the need of stuff seminary teachers need to clean up after? The number of Eshes Ish problems we deal with under the radar?

NOTHING HAS HAPPENED? NOTHING HAS HAPPENED? Do you think that everyone just woke on morning and said “gee, the sun is shinning , let’s see what we can forbid today?” The game has changed. Yes, in our communities. Never heard of Tefillin dates? Come on. I’m not saying the solution is to separate everything under the sun, but this ivory tower attitude of “well, they are just immature, they will do it anyway”…ignores basic human nature that we are influenced by our surroundings, simple Skinner behaviorism – and yes, “Gedarim” of one sort or another have always existed.

Per your logic, we should do away with Yichud, because either people are mature or they are not. Shulchan Aruch writes “One should say very, very, far away from women…” – now, true, today’s world requires more interaction (I am expecting “well, then we should have burqas response”) – but the principle remains. We need to have gedarim. This reasonings is ridiculous.

Men & Women of all social strata, intelligence, and levels of religiosity have done stupid things they never would have dreamed of doing. Chazal teach us “En Apitrapus L’Arayos -” no one is trusted in regards to these thing. No one. Trust? Maturity?

We have “gedarim” for a reason. Now, you need the right geder in the right time in the right place – but come on, if you think that coed events only effect the immature who will do it anyway, it’s time to wake up and smell the chulent. Speak to educators, Rabbis, people in the field. Tsey V’Lamad!

Please, I beg of you, respond to my actual point. That people are effected by their surroundings, and gedarim help that. This we see from Chazal – Yichud – Shulchan Aruch – and basic psychology of behaviorism.

OK mod, carte blanche.

Since it was brought up. Touro College is separate by design,because its what halacha wants, not because “that’s what the customers want”.

I heard the following when being menachem the family of R’ Berish Lander Z’l.

In its early years the school was going through a financially difficult period. Someone offered a building to the school on the condition that both the mens and womens division move into the same building (into this donated building, as a cost savings measure). As the Manhattan program offers classes to both men and women at the same time (unlike the flatbush program) this would have meant effectively having a co-ed school and the offer as turned down.

Moq, I think you are missing my point. During coed functions with adults (we can debate teenage years as a different point), nothing happens in the open. If something happens, in private, it would have happened anyway. We are talking about people who are dating for marriage. Can you trust them on a date?

At the point where someone is of marriagable age and dating, if they meet someone and are committed to halacha, they will date properly. If they aren’t, they won’t date properly. That is whether or not they meet by shadchan.

If you want to argue about seperating teenagers during events (like weddings, speeches, concerts), I think its a much better argument than saying to seperate those of marriagable age who have the chance to meet.

As to research, there is nothing to say you can’t research someone once you meet them. Then you make the decision of “do this persons benefits outweigh their drawbacks.” I met my husband in college and we were on different spectrums. I am MO, he was much more RW. We decided to make it work. We found ways to make our relationship work despite our hashkafic differences (which when we drilled down to it, were not that different). We were also willing to do things for each other (like me being more machmir on certain things or him not doing things that were society based not halachically based)…we made that decision. No one would have ever set us up.

Now to college students on campus – you need to seperate the categories of college kids. There are groups who are looking for freedom from Judaism, those who are committed to Judaism and those who want their fun and then they will repent. If you take the group who wants to remain committed, I doubt that number is 60%.

Again, I’m not denying that there are occassions that encourage licentiousness. I am arguing that mixed seating at weddings, concerts, speeches etc are NOT going to encourage it.

Moq, VERY well said.

SJS, no, it wouldn’t “have happened anyway.” Provide extra opportunities for it to “have happened”, and then it will happen a lot more frequently. Like Moq said, S”A says “keep far, far away from women” as a GENERAL statement for very good reason.

Additionally, you can’t have a mixed wedding only for the 18 – 23 year olds whilst excluding the 13 – 16 year olds from mixing as well.

As far as research, if something turns up negative AFTER a bond was formed, it may be too late to break.

there is a great need for separate colleges. i don’t know about you guys, but 35 years ago, when i went to Brooklyn college, Kosher Country was the greatest hangout! it did lead to some shidduchim, but on the whole, it wasn’t healthy. if our children would do it today, we’d blow a fit!

I know a lot of guys that went to BC just for the girls.

we used to say the girls were in school to get their MRS degree!

Additionally, you can’t have a mixed wedding only for the 18 – 23 year olds whilst excluding the 13 – 16 year olds from mixing as well.

Why not?

I was just at a wedding where family was seperated, and only the couples friends were mixed.

And Helpful, yes, someone who is going to transgress halacha after meeting someone at a wedding will transgress halacha after meeting someone on a blind date.

Perhaps getting over some of our research and meeting the person may make for happy marriages that may or may not have happened anyway. I think all our research does more harm than good.

Edited

Moq – Very well said, and I couldn’t agree more.

dunno – “As a general rule most college age students are looking to get married as they fall between the 18 to 23 range (for undergrad). Again, I am talking about your run of the milll frum guy/girl.”

Just because somebody is above 18 doesn’t automatically guarantee that they are serious and “looking to get married”. There are still plenty of 18-20 year old who are looking for nothing more than a good time.

Oh, and I think you should read Moqs comment (if you haven’t already) seeing as it talks more about coed colleges (which you have been championing) than mixed seating (which seems to be SJSinNYC’s main point).

SJSinNYC – “During coed functions with adults (we can debate teenage years as a different point), nothing happens in the open. If something happens, in private, it would have happened anyway. We are talking about people who are dating for marriage. Can you trust them on a date?”

For the umpteenth time: We are NOT only talking about serious adults, or “people who are dating for marriage”. We are talking about anybody and everybody who will be affected by making weddings and other such events coed – people of all ages and all maturity levels.

“If something happens, in private, it would have happened anyway.”

No it wouldn’t have, these two people wouldn’t know each other exist, forget be doing various aveiros together!

“sitting at a table with someone who may be your bashert for 3 hours with 400 people in the room will not lead to licentiousness any more than being in a hotel lobby will. “

Of course it will – it will give the two of them 3 more hours to form a bond, and once that bond is formed it has much more potential to become very, very destructive. And if you honestly think that there is no difference between meeting somebody in passing in a lobby and sitting down for 3 hours with them, then how would mixed seating help form shidduchim? They’re meeting in the lobby anyways!

charliehall – “Almost all of us have something like that in our background, either ourselves or in our family history. And most of us who claim that there isn’t are simply in denial. We are all imperfect people and the Torah lifestyle allows us to serve HaShem in spite of our imperfections. “

Yes, nobody perfect, and of course we should serve Hashem anyways. However, would you want your child to get married to somebody with “genetic diseases/psychological disorders”? Or worse, get married and only then find out that their spouse has serious issues? If that is indeed the case, then dating without research is for you.

“So a boy with lists of girls is therefore more likely to sin than a boy with less prospects?”

Of course. The more opportunities one has to do aveiros, the greater the chances that he will do it, don’t you agree?

“People don’t stand around at a wedding and say “Who do I sin with next?”

Some don’t, some do.

“They say “This seems like a nice person, let me get to know them better.”

You can’t be serious. Why do you think people of opposite genders want “to know each other better”?! It’s called tayveh, and it doesn’t end there!

SJS, thank you for your clear reply. If I understand you correctly, you agree that teenagers should be separated when possible, even in “neutral” settings (a wedding etc.)

You disagree as far as married couples & singles.

Let’s start with singles. You say if they are going to be inappropriate they will be inappropriate even in a controlled shidduch setting.

I don’t believe this is correct. Young people when together do create attraction. But many are not tachlis oriented, or at least not that point in their lives. Do you believe that a young bais yakov girl couldn’t be taken in a by a handsome boy who has no intention of putting a ring on her finger? Now, true, this boy has bad intentions, but she doesn’t. But, as we know, men & women are drawn in – and so can the finest Bais Yakov girl. But if we separated the genders, our young “predator” wouldn’t be able to access her; he would only be able to access girls whom equally weren’t looking for tachlis in other settings, as you pointed out.

But for our Bais Yakov girl, that makes the difference. She should have the maturity, yada yada yada – but she doesn’t. Most do not. She should. But she doesn’t. Now what? This is the situation we seek to avoid. Because everything that happens starts with a neutral conversation. And this is the main point: for many, many people this the difference. They will not seek out issurim. But if left in front of them, they will not be able to stand up to the test. Perhaps they should. But chazal teach us not to trust ourselves. And again, bitter experience shows this, again and again. Like everything. This is the essence of advertising. But if they want ice cream, won’t they buy it anyway? No, you’ve got to blare it in there face. Some people will buy it anyway. And some will be mature enough not to buy it even your advertisment. But some are in the grey area. And you’ll break their willpower, and push your profits up.

This grey area, apparently is worth billions of dollars in advertisments and endorsements.

However, if let our innocent bais yakov girl spend three hours in a controlled setting with one previously vetted young man – whom , if they are indeed a match, will be married in six months – the chances of something happening are much lower. Heck, in many circles today he doesn’t get her phone number until they are playing for keeps.

You have said that never saw anything happen when married people mix. Of course you don’t see it. It’s an innocent conversation. It’s the wink of eye. It’s a little extra tension, when her husband seems so much more handsome & kind, and behold, he has the most horrible wife. Poor boy…I would appreciate him. Aish has a great article about this. http://www.aish.com/f/m/92618844.html

It progresses from there, beneath your rader. I have seem this happen. I am invovled in H. This happens, again and again. And without the innocent venue, those people who stand in the grey area would be safer.

That’s where I disagree with you; the grey area people. Most of us are there.

Now, true, I’m not sure everything amoung married people needs to totally separated; I know that friendships with the opposite gender are deadly to a marriage. The connection certainly is deadly.

To summarize, certainly for single people the shidduchim system is far safer then open mingling. And amoungst married people, anything that leads to relationships between a man and a woman – married to others – will only lead to destruction. Yes, not always. And I know, there is an anecdote where this didn’t happen. But often it does. And we worry. And not about others; I mean myself. Ein Apitropus L’Arayos. I have seen great people fall to this ; haven’t you? The grey area makes a big difference.

And again, I believe that decades ago this wasn’t necessary. But 60% of the secular married population has affairs; of those will excellent marriages (!) 20%! With excellent marriages! I believe that society has gotten terribly corrupt, and that has influenced how we act, how we dress, how we interact and look at the other gender. And so, we much try to bandage this terribly wound.

But again, it doesn’t solve the deeper problem. But it’s something.

please do us a favor and inform the Yetzer HaRah of your theory. might just put him out of business.

dunno – “In college you tend to have girls starting from 18-19 and boys 20-21. Most have already gone to Israel and are ready to settle down and start a family.”

I do no think that is the case. Boys and girls several years younger that than (usually from a more modern background) that often go to college, and even those that have gone to Israel aren’t necessarily “ready to settle down and start a family”.

“

“You also tell SJSinNYC that during the 3 hours by the wedding the boy and girl will form a bond so it’s likely to lead to sin. If that is the case, how are we allowing 2nd dates when going through a shidduch system? The first date tends to run for about the same amount of time if not longer.”

Again, the difference being that only singles seriously interested in getting married are going to a shadchan in the fist place, while anybody at any level of maturity can be at a wedding. I believe this is the 3rd time I have said this idea on this topic.

“In response to your last post, do you honestly think that when someone wants to get to know the opposite gender better it’s to sin??”

Most of the time, yes.

“it’s not tayvah. It’s called: “I got a good impression of this person. I want to get to know them better to see if we can maybe get married one day and raise a family together.”

Again, this is only if these people are both at a certain maturity level, and not everybody at a wedding (or at a college) have that maturity. Therefore, mixing genders will result in a greater amount of aveiros happening.

Sacrilege – “The bottom line is people who want to get in trouble will get in trouble people who dont wont. Nothing just happens.”

While that may be true to some extent, it is not a black and white rule. If it was so simple, then we would only have two types of people in this world: total tzaddikim and total rushahim, and this is obviously not the case. Everybody has a breaking point – a certain amount of tayveh that they find it very hard not to succumb to. And the closer you get to that point, the harder it is for them to resist the yetzer hara. Putting immature boys and girls together, giving them a chance to get to know one another and to exchange contact info, will increase their desire to get together and sin.

“And why do you call it a tayvah? They want to get married. Initial meeting point is often a moot point. Do you think MO people who meet on their own are just “in it for the tayvah”? Or do you think there is a chance they want to get married. Or is that just a yeshivish thing?”

I never said “MO people who meet on their own are just “in it for the tayveh””. However, all human beings have tayvos for arayos. This is a fact. Therefore, when some singles try to get to know each other it is indeed for marriage purposes, but some have other purposes in mind. And we cannot give those others an oppurtunity to get to now each other and do aveiros together.

And no, I do not think that wanting to get married is “just a yeshivish thing”. Why would I?

I think tou are giving too much clout to the “yetzer hara” as if its an actual identity. All “it” is is you. Do I think that there is something wrong with mature boys and girls mingaling and talking with eachother? no. Do I think that our frum society has made it into such a big deal that now so many people just want to do it, and then bad thing end up coming out of it for no reason? 1,000%