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You shouldn’t tell people it’s assur to eat a McDonald’s cheeseburger since someone might have gotten a heter to do so (for example if he was stuck somewhere without kosher food and would starve otherwise.) If someone posts a question here asking if it’s okay to eat in McDonald’s, the response should be to ask a Rov.
Which rov has come out and said it is categorically assur to use a mixed gym? Also Lior thinks its assur. Two reasons why there’s a great chance it isn’t categorically assur.
No one has given any credible source applying an issur any more to a mixed gym than it applies to walking on the street. I’m still waiting.
Hey, listen, if you say “there’s a great chance it isn’t categorically assur” then bon voyage. Enjoy your mixed gym attendance. After all, why give up a “great chance” to do something that “isn’t categorically assur”?
And enjoy the cheeseburger in the mixed gym cafeteria.
The “great chance” was alluding to the fact that there remains a faint[er] possibility that Lior’s opinion isn’t always categorically wrong. Just usually.
I’m still waiting.
I am going to say something very strong against all of those attacking with flatbusher: I don’t care how obvious you think the answer is, you NEVER attack someone for asking a Shailah or trying to learn. That is how one prevents actual learning of Torah. If you have a source, answer simply with a source. If you don’t, then maybe it’s not as cut-and-dried as you think. Everything in life is/can be a Shailah. Some just have obvious answers. So if you think this is an obvious answer, explain why. Attacking someone for asking a question is an anti-Torah attitude. Don’t do it. Ever.
Flatbusher: The simple answer to your basic question (why is there an assumption that men are obsessed with Arayos) is that there is a high enough chance that they are. Yes, not all men are immediately Over Issurim when they see a woman in any state of undress. But a significant enough number are. And keep in mind, “Over Issurim” here doesn’t mean have Bi’os Assuros (the notion that “men can’t control themselves” is a Christian idea that we don’t really believe in); it means Hirhurei Aveirah. And, generally, we don’t trust people to claim that they don’t have Hirhurei Aveirah in a situation that is liable to lead to it. Not because we think someone would be lying about it, but because they are probably lying to themselves about it. Moreover, even if it 100% doesn’t bother you, but it could very easily lead to a situation where someone else has the impression it’s okay. And there is no way to guarantee that every such person who gets that impression won’t be perfect in such a situation.
frumknotyeshivish: Come on. It’s pretty obvious what Darka Achrina is. It means another situation of more or less equal ease.
DY: “can I say no and then violate the entire ???? ?”??”
Is it bad if I think that the Rama says that the answer to this question is yes?
Sam: I agree with DaasYochid’s comment to flatbusher when DY told him “You are not trying to understand Chazal, there’s nothing particularly difficult about it. You are arguing with them.”
Nobody attacked anyone for asking a shaalo. It wasn’t that poster who started this thread, who truly wanted to know. Some attacked another who made light of an issue, a most serious sin. There’s a difference between one who wants to know (sources, inyanim etc.), and one who comes to diminish the seriousness of any aveira.
Rama?
I don’t think it’s categorically assur to go to a mixed gym. It depends on the type of gym. If a woman wants to go, dressed appropriately, why should it be wrong? If a man wants to go, and he stays in an area where there aren’t women dressed inappropriately, what’s wrong with that?
That scenario is still inappropriate, but if you want to argue that mixed gyms are not categorically assur, you can suggest a situation where there’s a curtain separating the men and women, the women are all above 90, they are wearing burkas, and only exercising their (gloved) pinkies.
DaMosher, before people attack you for your comment, with which I agree, many comments here are based on sheer ignorance of what actually goes on in a mixed gym, while yours more accurately reflects the reality. If a gym in the situation you describe is off limits, so should bowling alleys, playgrounds and supermarkets. I sense that misinformation went into the position on the Internet. I don’t know how many of those who have spoken out against it actually have used it but relied on what they were told. As for the comparison to kashrus, these are people who see everything in halachah as black and white and don’t realize there are shades that must be considered.
Hmmm… I’m wondering why your comment on DaMoshe’s post wasn’t that people shouldn’t rely on the comments here but should ask a Rav…
I still believe that, but I understand his position. And as you can see, no one has banned men from going to any other venues where there are women, unless I missed something.
I still believe that
Oh, I’m sure you do, but it’s pretty telling to see where that comment is made.
no one has banned men from going to any other venues where there are women, unless I missed something
Have you never seen a mechitzah at a chasunah for dancing? This is worse.
based on what do you say it is worse?
Not for public discussion.
goyim get to know people at the gym all the time. (they even have dating gyms.) prety sure i heard on the radio that its actually one of the top places people meet.
another voice speaking from no personal experience.
How do you know?
SOunds it. The poster didn’t support the statement with “I’ve been to gyms and people meet all the time” and then refers to something maybe heard on the radio.
But you don’t know this from personal experience, merely from conjecture, correct? Also, you said “another”, so you’d have to explain how you know this about each voice you’re referring to.
because I l know from my own personal experience that some of things said here are just not true, especially concerning how people dress and interact at mixed gyms.
Flatbusher-this was your first comment “
I think you are best to ask a rav and not rely on the comments here. ” that sounds nice and eidel what happened in 2 days…
Being that everything is muttar until proven assur, and being that no credible source was given citing an issur [yet], this thread points to the assumption that mixed gyms are muttar. If you disagree, prove your point. As always, please consult with a rabbi before providing practical advice toward chumros and even toward kulos.
mir talmid – you stole the comment I was about to post.
Flatbusher – Let us know what your rav says.
Not sure what your’re talking about, Mir
FNY, check the ??? ???? I referred to before. Also check the “knocking teeth out” thread. Also, your use of the word “even” is noted and is obviously backwards. Also, proving something from what you perceive as lack of sources from some random people who post on the CR is pretty feeble.
He’s telling you to ask your rav rather than argue about it here (as you previously suggested).
No one said anything is proven. If there was a proof here, it would be toward heter.
The baer heiteiv on walking behind women would imply that you should take the treadmill in the front, and be very careful on the street where it is much harder to comply.
I will check the other thread soon.
Why is my order wrong? Source?
?? ??????? ???? is actually a great source, because if someone can’t be ???? ?? ??????, they have to be machmir.
DY: When dealing with something presumably assur, then koach of heter is the bigger chiddush. When dealing with something presumably muttar than the koach of issur is the bigger chiddush.
I suppose my main gripe here, and with many other “rules” of tznius, is who says the presumption is to asser?
If I were to discuss the halachos of standing on my head and Lior were to say that it is equivalent to theft is he saying the lesser chiddush? Erring on the side of caution or ignorance?
The presumption isn’t to asser for the sake of assering. Do you think the oilam doesn’t go to mixed gyms for no reason?
You can’t take something you know full well is considered assur by all mainstream Orthodox Jews and presume it’s muttar until you are shown sources to your satisfaction, for which there are no objective criteria. This is clearly and obviously something which falls into the category of a huge nisayon which is assur to put yourself into, and to take something with obvious reason to asser, which is clearly assumed by the frum velt to be assur, and call it presumably muttar, is blatantly wrong.
Comparing it to standing on your head, which nobody considers assur and there’s no reason to think is assur, is ridiculous.
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Hmm. So Reb Moshe says that for refua one may go to mixed beach if no separate beach available. I wonder what he’d say about gyms?
Not sure how to work the hebrew that well. The following is a direct quote from the only american posek rav ovadia cited:
???”? ????? ??? (??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??) ???, ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???, ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ?? ????? ??, ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??. ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??????. ?”?
THIS leads you to think that mixed gyms are always assur? We must be reading different things…
Now quote all the others (including the others who were in America, BTW) about how feasible the ??? ???? ???? ????? is, and the overall gist of how R’ Ovadia understands his opinion.
Who else is american? I didn’t recognize any names. Sorry for my ignorance. R”O explicitly disagrees with Reb Moshe. He doesn’t misunderstand it. He quotes it correctly and proceeds to disagree with it. As an American Ashkenasy, I go with Reb Moshe.
As far as R”O’s factual premise to the psak: “??? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??,” I’d find that exceptionally difficult analogy to apply to a gym. Even leshitaso, which I wouldn’t follow over r. moshe. So again, source?
You had asked for a source against mixed swimming. Don’t forget that swimming attire at the time these teshuvos were written was far more “modest” than currently. Also note that the many who wrote against it (see ???? ??”? who collected many teshuvos – http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41167&st=&pgnum=162&hilite=) didn’t seem to feel that they were not entitled to an opinion because they didn’t have “personal experience” (to address flatbusher).
In terms of the general issur, he groups them together: ???? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????”? ???”? ??? ???? ??? ?’ (???? ???), ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ????”? ???”? ????? ??? (??? ??? ???? ???? ??), ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????”? ???”? ??? ??? ??? ?’ (???? ???).
Second, he argues on the application of ???? ??????, but the ??”? didn’t discuss how likely the necessary condition for ???? is: ??? ???? ???? ?????.
For this, we can apply the various ????? ??”? quoted in these teshuvos, and which R’ Moshe doesn’t address. It is quite obvious inherently, and from our ?????? in having a ????? for dancing that seeing vigorous movement is ???? ?????, and for obvious reasons, ??? ??? ???? ??????.
R’ Moshe addressed ????? (and even then, under such limited circumstances as to render an actual heter nearly impossible) but didn’t address “getting in shape”, and there are numerous options, even with no “kosher gym” in Flatbush, even for ????? and ?? ??? for getting and staying in shape, there are numerous options, rendering it ???? ???? ??????, and ???? even in the rare circumstance of someone who can fulfill the other condition. It’s fair to say that we can apply to someone claiming it’s okay for him, that which is quoted in the name of (????? ??? ???? ????’? ???? ???? ??? ?? (???? ?’ ??? ? regarding the overall issue (different case):
????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ??
DY: you keep saying ??? ??? ???? ??????. You are being maarich on everything but your reasoning.
I asked for the source for swimming because Lior, without giving a reason, said gym is ossur, just like swimming. I wanted to establish that saying something is ossur without a reason is foolish, and saying something is ossur because something more serious is ossur, without knowing even the more serious reason, is foolish squared.
Mixed swimming is almost always ossur, barring extreme exceptions. I think we all agree on that (with perhaps slight disagreement on the extremity of the exceptions).
Your analogy from “vigorous movement” at weddings to gyms is imho misplaced for al 6 reasons:
1. of joy, 2. made in a social setting, 3. while dressed and made up, 4. possibly involving negiah, 5. in a place that people who are uncomfortable may feel obligated to remain, 6. the makers of the event are frum and in control
I’m sorry that I didn’t know that the be’er moshe lived in america. Now I do. R’ Moshe was the posek of litvishe america though, not the debritziner.
Bottom line: all things equal, choosing a mixed gym over a separate gym is rishus per the gemara in bb. The question that a rov must answer is when things are unequal. Must one travel 6 hours to the nearest kosher gym? What about pay 6 times the price? What about sacrificing necessary equipment? Good questions, and I wouldn’t dare presume the “correct” answer. I’m not sure why you would.
Finally, if going to the seaside is called refuah, I can’t see how going to the gym would definitely not be.
I’m not being ????? in what can cause ????? ????, but that the issue is ????? ???? is obvious, and there’s no need to be ????? in the reason.
It’s not just the ??? ???? which is unusual, it’s a person who could honestly say he won’t come to ????? which is unusual. There are a whole lot more people utilizing a “heter” than really have one.
Going to the seaside is not called ?????, except for someone who particularly needs it for illness. There are unfortunately people who use a mixed gym who are not ill, and fool themselves into thinking it’s not a problem for them, when isn’t even enough of a ???? to go if they were right.
Flatbusher- dont know what the mods will let of this quote but
“Canoodle.com asked 1,500 of its members if the gym is a dating hotspot with the potential for meeting a future partner. Not surprising, 62% of those surveyed stated the gym is a good place to meet new people, with three quarters preferring it to a bar. An overwhelming 80% believed an interest in physical fitness is a significant characteristic of a potential partner, which would also encourage future workouts together.”
And i don’t know how you expect to hear personal experience about this. Here’s some personal experience though: if my wife knew how many times i grab a quick glance when we pass by a gym shed kill me and divorce me
Gyms are overrated. If you dont have the self control to workout without it then you obviously dont have the self control to be shomer ainayim.
If you can’t walk by a gym without taking a peek, you definitely should not go to a mixed gym! But really, is that a basis for divorce or murder? As for the survey, I do not doubt that people do use it as a meeting place, but it doesn’t apply to every gym or every person. If you go there for the intended purpose, likely people will leave you alone.
oyyoyyoy, On the contrary, if you have the self control and motivation to work out on a regular basis, you have the self control and motivation to mind your own business at the gym. Gyms are not overrated. Where in your house do you find the room to keep all the equipment that the gyms have.
But really, is that a basis for divorce or murder?
im not sure whether giving the benefit of doubt here means youre joking or youre serious
Im just saying one line:
The chevra here are hocking about mixed gyms.
Do all of you have your internet blocked?
If not then going to a mixed gym is probably better for your neshama than staying at home
On the contrary, if you have the self control and motivation to work out on a regular basis, you have the self control and motivation to mind your own business at the gym.
I dont know how that follows. Yes, i think it’s harder to control oneself from these avairos (workout in workout out) than working out on a regular basis. I also think the spiritual health at risk outweighs the physical health risk of not going to the gym.
Gyms are not overrated. Where in your house do you find the room to keep all the equipment that the gyms have.
Truth is i was thinking more about motivation (ie working out at home which has the “too easy=lazy paradox”) when i wrote gyms are overrated. Regarding money as well, i was thinking buying your own treadmill and some weights would be enough and cheaper than a membership in the long run (A PUN!). As i was going to say, and then went thru the thread a bit and saw DY beat me to it, theres health reasons and then theres cosmetic reasons. Even for cosmetic purposes this cud be fine. I admit i dont know so much about gyms but thats partially cause i hold theyre overrated.
i understand people wanna look good. they shudnt be getting good looks at the same time.
Plumber- If not then going to a mixed gym is probably better for your neshama than staying at home
Sweet but possibly untrue. And btw, idk if staying at home is as bad as telling a public forum theres nothing wrong with going to a mixed gym.
Oyoyoyoy
I was in no way saying it was ok. Both will ruin your neshama. Just saying the less of two evils. Thanks for the clarification
right. what you were saying was- don’t sit there in the house telling everyone to be makpid not to go to the gym while at the same time using unfiltered internet which itself has its pitfalls. and i’m saying i think it may be kinda important to correct the populace about the notion that mixed gyms are ok.
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