- This topic has 62 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
There are some mitzvos that we don’t do anymore even though we technically coukd. I’d like to hear what some of them are and why we don’t do them.
For example yibum, with the exception of a few chassidish rebbe’s we just don’t do it.
Avadim. I know there is Dina dmalchusa but perhaps in eretz yisroel or in some Arab countries?
Having more than one wife – at least for sfardim and perhaps the gzers of rebbe gershom has expired?
This isn’t a mitzvah but marrying first cousins used to be seen as a great thing but today far from it. Perhaps here also marrying at younge ages.Any others?
Do you think any Halachas that the Shulchan Aruch or the Chofetz Chaim tell us to do are no longer done? Going through Sefer Chofetz Chaim I haven’t found any such examples.
As far as your examples, Sefardim do Yibum. Teimanim and some Sefardim (i.e. Moroccan) have polygamous marriages. Avadim is certainly muttar if a country allows it. And Chasidim, especially Rebbishe families, often marry first cousins today. As do numerous non-Chasidim. Chasidim everywhere (including in the U.S.) as well as Yerushalmis and many other Litvaks in Eretz Yisroel often marry before age 18.
My Rebbe the previous Matersdorfer Rav married his first cousin.
My father after the war married his first wife’s sister. Two witnesses gave testimony that his first wife with his two children were sent to the left side in Auschwitz. In was a known fact that those who were sent to the left side ended up in the gas chamber.
There is joke where the Satmar Rebbe was asked who comes first to get maftir a choson or a bar mitzva? He said whoever is older.
Joseph
” Do you think any Halachas that the Shulchan Aruch”sure. There are plenty. Though we may follow the Rema, or shach tc.
As to the OP the examples you list arent really “mitzvos”
Though thereare soem that we dont practice some have better answers than othersHilchos yerusha, we basically dont follow. that ist to say we dont follow halacha ch”v, its that we ignore the actual halacha, and instead use a shtar chatzi zachar give girls inheritence.
Tzaraas, is one that doesnt have a clear answer, as to why someone with a white spot, doesnt go to a Koehin, which is a mitzvah deoraysah.
PArah Adumah feels “bais hamikdashi” so we just assume that it is tied to the bais hamikdash, but it sint reallyThey also marry their first cousins at the age of 14 and 15 in Kentucky and West Virginia….I guess Joe finds that a positive attribute. There are risks of higher incidence of birth defects or genetic disorders although the risk is now considered much lower than it used to be. As we have learned in relation to our resident troll: just because you CAN do something, doesn’t mean you should do something, whether marrying children in their early teens or engaging in Polygamy…
“Hilchos yerusha, we basically dont follow.”
We certainly do follow Hilchos Yerusha. Especially when there was no will.
korbonos even though makrivin af al pi she’en bayis.
“We certainly do follow Hilchos Yerusha. Especially when there was no will.”
Most Rabboniml encourage writing a will. and will encourage giving to girls even if there is no will. I know how much this must upset you
There is an interesting argument between the Chasam Sofer Yorei Deah 236 and his father in law Rabbi Akiva Eiger if currently there is a possibility to sacrifice a Korban Pesach. This is based on the Kaftor Voferach who writes that Rabbi Chaim of Paris wanted to sacrifice it at the turn of the 5000 millenium. The question is how we can overcome all the requirements that currently we don’t have.
Fascinating topic… be better gave English translations along with the Hebrew
The amoraim forbade yibum a long time ago. In all cases of yibum since the time of the gemara, chalitza is performed. This is not the same as polygamy. Communities that did not accept Rabbeinu Gershom’s cherem always allowed it, assuming the host country’s laws were OK with it (not too common nowadays).
Avadim: there are many opinions among the Rishonim on this. According to some, it could only be reinstated when we get back the Yovel, which clearly no one is claiming today to fulfill.Tzara’as: see interesting remarks on this at the end of the Tiferes YIsrael’s lengthy hakdama to Mishnayos Negaim. He wrote that in his youth, he asked Rebbe Akiva Eiger why the halachos of tumas tzara’as are not practiced nowadays. Rebbe Akiva Eiger told him that’s a very good question and he doesn’t have a good answer. The Tiferes YIsrael continues that when he got a bit older, he decided that it’s because we don’t have kohanim me’yuchasim. He bases this on a Rambam in HIlchos Terumos, I beleive the Minchas Chinuch also writes that same reason — because of the Rambam.
Korbanos: it’s mainly because of tumah, although there are many other considerations, such as the precise makom ha’mizbeiach (the dimensions of the Har Habayis has changed over the past 1900 years), bigdei kehuna, and others. The only question we could ask is about Korban Pesach that could be brought bi’tumah. On this (like on all other matters) we rely on the knowledge of our gedolei Torah who are not clamoring to do it. May we be zoche to do it in our days!ubiq: You seem to be upset that Hilchos Yerusha haven’t been thrown out the window and they are still binding Halacha today.
American Yerushalmi: Sefardim do Yibum. Teimanim and Sephardim do polygamy. Avadim is muttar and done in limited circumstances (mamzeirus, etc.), and can be done anywhere Dina D’Malchusa allows it.
There are numerous problems with bringing Korbanos today, even the Korban Pesach.
1) Tumah: Although a Korban Tzibur (and Pesach) can be sacrificed btumah, the Rambam paskens טומאה דחוייה בציבור and therefore בעי ריצוי ציץ. The Rambam also paskens דווקא בזמן שהוא על מצחו, which requires a Kohen Gadol, probably with all 8 begadim (or else he would be מחוסר בגדים) – which is an impossibility; we cannot make the Choshen nor the Avnet. (Another problem is that we are all מחוסר כפורים דזב, and טומאה הותרה בציבור may not override that)
2) Kohen Meyuchas: The Gemara explicitly forbids Kohanei Chazakah from performing the Avoidah in Kiddushin 79 and Kesuvos 24. The Chasam Sofer (Yo”d 236) brings the Ya’avetz (#91?) who says this is only a חומרא but not a reason to forgo the Avoida in a situation where there are no Kohanim Meyuchasim, but this is not at all a דבר מוסכם.
3) Mokom Mizbeach: The Gemara (Zevachim 62) writes that when rebuilding Bayis Sheni, they required a Navi to show them the Mokom Mizbeach. Whatever the reason they required a navi was, we don’t have one. (The Mahartz Chiyas has a Kuntrus Avoidas HaKodesh [located in Siman 74 of his Shaalos uTeshuvos] where he discusses this whole iyan, and he goes to lengths to differentiate between Bayis Sheni and today)
4) Bigdei Kehuna: Even if we rely on our Kohanim, the Bidgei Kehuna are מעכב. We do not have the required materials to create the Bigdei Kehuna. The Chasam Sofer writes that this is no problem, because although we are not able to make Bigdei Kohen Gadol because we lack tcheiles*, we can create Bidgei Kohen Hidyot. The problem is: (a) We need Bidgei Kohen Gadol too, because of Ritzui Tzitz (see Point 1), and (b) the Avnet of the Kohen Hidyot also requires Techeiles.
(* Even those who think we have techeiles will not be oiver on ספק כרת with that.)
5. ריח ניכוח: The Binyan Tzion (#1, 2), the Netziv (Ha’amek Davar Bechukosai) and the Chazon Ish (don’t remember exactly where; possible Zevachim 62?) explain the Pasuk ולא אריח בריח ניכוחכם to refer to Korbonos after the Churban. [This may not apply to Korbon Pesach)
6. The whole discussion only begins according to the Rambam, who holds that קדושה ראשונה קידשה לעתיד לבא. However, the Ra’avad disagrees, and holds that we cannot bring Korbonos today. This leads to many problem: (a) Possible wearing שעטנז [bigdei kahuna], (b) Possible entering Har HaBayis btumah [many poskim hold that even the Ra’avad agrees this is forbidden], (c) Possible damaging a Korbon שלא בשעת עבודה
These are big problems. R’ Chaim/Yechiel miPariz, Radvaz, The Chasam Sofer, Maharitz Chiyas, R’ Tzvi Hersch Kalisher didn’t seem to be bothered by these. There are possible ways out around these issue, although they require a lot of chiddushim.
Of course, this whole discussion is theoretical – even today, when different enemies control Har Habayis and we can gain access, it is guaranteed סכנה in terms of inviting retaliation, and that alone is reason not to bring the Korbon.
(And we don’t have anyone – at least who I am aware of – who has the expertise necessary to successfully bring the Karbanos. Practical issue.)
ubiq: When we say Shulchan Aruch we include the Rema in that terminology. The Gedolim in the days of the Shulchan Aruch and shortly thereafter have agreed to accept the psakim of the Mechaber and the Rema as authoritative.
Regarding the Shach, the Shach writes that one cannot even claim “kim li” against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. This is akin to accepting someone as your “Rebbi”, where you follow his psakim. This is the same thing that happened when, let’s say, Klal Yisroel decided that the period of Chazal has ended after the 7th generraiton of Amorayim (Mar Zutra, Mar bar Rav Ashi, etc), and nobody from here on in can add to the Gemora. There was no “halachah l’Moshe misinai” that told us that the Gemora was sealed; it was the accepted reality told to us by our Gedolim. The same thing applies to accepting the Shulchan Aruch and Rema.
If there is no will, then the State probate courts get invovled and it divides up the assets equally among the children (and I think grandchildren get parents share if parent is no longer living)
None of the examples cited are mitsvos. They are things that halacha allows that have become obsolete for reasons unrelated to halacha.
Economically, slavery is a bad deal (the owner of an eved Ivri got stick with massive bills for wife and kids, even though they didn’t do any work, and the eved Kaanani turned out to be highly inefficient once capitalism was invented several centuries ago – it seems that paying workers make them work a lot harder than an unpaid worker). Polygamy was never practical (most men have trouble supporting one wife and set of kids). Marrying first cousins seriously increases the risk of genetic disorders in the children, something unknown until the 20th century. Another factor is that due to improvements of transportation and communications everyone has a bigger pool of possible spouses (it no longer takes months for a letter from Jerusalem to western Europe, and travelling to Eretz Yisrae from Europe is no longer a life-threatening once in a lifetime effort).
Just a clarification on probate court distribution to children when there is no will
You state that grandchildren will inherit if their parent is no longer alive. The grandchildren will only get their deceased parent’s share if the parent died before the grandparent.
Sam dies leaving 3 living children (a, b, c), no spouse, no will. The 3 each get 1/3.
B predeceased Sam, then B’s children split B’s 1/3
BUT, it B dies after Sam, but before estate is settled. B’s 1/3 is paid to B’s estate and subject to B’s will and/or the probate process. The 1/3 could very well end up being shared by B’s spouse (widow/er)CT Lawyer
According to Joseph, if there is no will, then the first born Son will get double portion, the other sons will get equal of the rest and the sisters get nothing as does the widow (If there is none)
Legally no Rabbi or First born son can claim religious juristiction over this estate if someone else contests (Like a daughter) to the probate court
ZD: The issur arkaos is, as you know, an issur chamur.
@Zahavasdad
No one has to contest anything……….
If the man dies without a will and any property (house, car, bank accounts, stocks, etc.) are titled in his name then the estate must be probated in order to LEGALLY distribute the property to heirs. Then the statutory distributions may be made.It is NOT possible to ‘contest’ an estate distributed in this manner. One can only ‘contest’ a will. One can mount a challenge in Probate/Surrogates Court to any particular heir based on testamentary evidence or challenge paternity.
“You seem to be upset that Hilchos Yerusha haven’t been thrown out the window and they are still binding Halacha today.”
“When we say Shulchan Aruch we include the Rema in that terminology. ”
Yes and if not the Remah then the shach, if not the Remah and shach then minhag I get it. We follow everything in shulchan Aruch to the tee unless there is another shitah telling us not to. Profound.See the thread where a posek said kitnios kelim are assur on yom tov which is not a Rema (let alone MEchaber)
See Y”D 192 Shach s”k 4 says tody arent noheg like the Remah there (an admittedly random example, it is just the most recent one I encountered there are many, ok several.)What?
I’m not upset at all. the bottom line is hilchos yerusha are generally not practiced the the Torah proscribes.AY
Yes I’m familiar with your sources. I’m not saying there are no answers given, some being better than others. Kohanim Meyuchsin isnt quite satisfying, as you may know we allow these “non-meyichas” kohanim to make a beracha for duchaning, e give them Pidyon haben, it seems strange all of a sudden for this they arent meyuchas. I’m not rejecting the answer outright, I just dont find it satisfying, and Like R’ Akiva Eiger I find the question better than the answer.akuperma
“None of the examples cited are mitsvos.”
I have to assume you didnt read the thread properly. some of the examples include:tzaras- the PAsuk says “vehuva el hakoehin” There is a mitzvah asei if a person has a white spot to go to a kohein this is brought in chinuch 169. this is not practiced today.
Yibbum I’m not sure how you cna say this isnt a mitzvah
Yerusha – Mitzvah 400 “ish ki yamus uben ein lo vehavartem es nachalaso levito”
The Torah is quite clear how to pass on inheritence after a person dies. We generally do not follow this.BTW Joseph
When I referenced hilchos Yerusha. I dont mean like ZD said “If there is no will, then the State probate courts get invovled and it divides up the assets equally among the childre”I mean if a person is planning for achar meah veesrim and he askss his Rav what should I do, should I give my Bechor pi shanyim, my sons one portion and the girls nothing, or should I divide it “fairly”
(almost?) any Rav will say to give the girls as well and that the bechor doesn’t get pi shnayim. There are halachic ways to make this chal that have been developed over centuries. I dont understand how you can not view this as an example of a mitzvah that we dont follow.
If there’s a will, there’s a way.
ubiq: You’re wrong on multiple items you mentioned including regarding whether as a practical matter we follow Hilchos Yerusha today. We absolutely do. The b’chor will as a general rule get a double portion. And Rabbonim for the most part do not recommend changing from the Torah’s Laws on yerusha. In fact, it is a major shaila whether it is even permissible. (Some hold it is.)
And Sephardim do Yibum.
Joseph
“We absolutely do. The b’chor will as a general rule get a double portion.”
I dont know how to tell you this bt you are not correct, IVe spoken to several Rabbonim including chasidish and yeshivish ones and they all said the yadvise people who ask to write a shtar chatzi zachor, to give girls equal to boys and that the bechor does not get pi shanyim (though some said the bechor should get extra).
you are right, that it is a major shailah, and there are people who do it in ways that arent chal.
I do suppose yo ucan argue that the mitzvah isnt being “avoided” since generally a token sum of money is left to be divided up al pi torah. See Ig”m CM 2:50 where he requires $1000 to be divided al pit torah. See also Minchas Yitzchak 3:135 where he struggles to defend the prevelant minhag of “ignoring” dinei nachla and gving inheritence to daughters.“And Sephardim do Yibum.”
Are you sefardi? Neither am I. So WE do not do yibum. please stop hocking ah cheinekubiq: They find a limud zchus or even a heter for those that don’t use the Torah Law way for Yerusha but the rabbonim do not recommend or encourage to not use the halachicly prescribed yerusha. Several gedolei poskim have said exactly this and none said otherwise. Everyone (among the Gedolei Poskim) agree that the following the Halacha “as is” is generally the preferable default barring extenuating circumstances.
JJ2020: Yirei Shamayim who use Beis Din rather than violating the issur chamur of arkaos use the halachicly prescribed marital assets distribution in a divorce rather than the contemporary gentile law of 50/50.
There’s absolutely no halachic or even hashkafic problem with marrying a first cousin in any frum Jewish community, including the ones where it isn’t common. Marrying a niece is specifically 100% okay even though the “besserer mentchen” these days hold their nose when they hear that. Marrying a first cousin is actually recommended and encouraged by Chazal. See Yevamos 62b. And Hashem told Moshe Rabbenu to tell the daughters of Tslophkhod to marry their cousins (Bamidbar 36: 5-13), and the Torah says “tov” about it.
The Rambam פרק ב איסורי ביאה הלכה יד says it is an oral mitzva to marry a niece based on the pasuk ומבשרך לא תתעלם.
Marrying cousins is one of the ways to spread genetic diseases. Tay Sachs is a problem because jews married their cousins. if an Ashkenazic jew married a Sephardic jew its unlilkely Tay Sachs would occur
“Some posters are saying that yerusha isn’t done according to halachah is that in cases where people go to beis din?”
I didnt mean to say that Yerusha is not done according to halacha ch”v. What I meant was “spirit of the law” is generally not followed of course if a person didnt leave a will and a beis din was deciding they would follow al pi din and give say if two boys and a girl 2/3 to Bechor 1/3 to younger brother and nothing to sister. (I dont know about the legalities involved and leave that to CT lawyer whether the Beis din’s decision would be enforceable which I doubt)
But if a person asks a Rav what to do ahead of time, most poskim wil ladvise writing a halachic will and including the dauthger.
Joseph incorrectly says “the rabbonim do not recommend or encourage to not use the halachicly prescribed yerusha” I am hesitent t olist names as obviously anyone who disagrees with Joseph isnt among the “gedolei haPoskim” but R’ Dovid Feinstein said that the minhag Ashkenazim is to include girls in Yerusha. I have spoken to poskim chasidish and litvish who all said the same. I did not take a poll among “gedolei poskim” So I dont know what they advise I do know what ordinary poskim and at least one whom I would categorize as Gedolei Haposkim advise.
At any rate even if Gedolei haposkim protest, this cleary is an accepted practice among frumma yidden, thus making it an example of a mitzvah not (fully) kept)Joseph: AFAIK the minhag among afar Din is not to do yibum. Rav Ovadia says Beis Din should push a guy to if he is lshem shamayim. Still, AFAIK the last yibum(at least in Israel) was in the 50’s
I think you can get around inheritance by having the inheritance at the time of death become valid from the time of writing the will. A live person can do whatever they want. חל למפרע
ubiq: That’s like saying that shatnes is (was) a mitzvah that’s no longer observed since in America it wasn’t observed generally by Orthodox Jews in America until Joseph Rosenberger started Shatnes Labs and made a big campaign to have people observe it. They should’ve been observing it all along but weren’t.
In any event, your attribution to Reb Dovid is incorrect. He did not say that is Minhag Ashkenaz. And the poskim do not recommend not following Hilchos Yerusha strictly. They all agree ideally it should be followed. But they also recognize extenuating circumstances for many and resistance to following it by many of the hamon hoam, hence the heteirim to deviate from the correct Halacha if necessary.
whattosay: Chacham Ovadia Yosef encouraged Yibum among Sephardim.
To answer OP…
For some reason most people don’t wash their hands before eating fruits which were washed.
For some reason people don’t bench with a Kos during the week.
Most litvaks don’t avoid making kiddush from 6pm to 7pm.I had more such examples but can’t recall them now.
2qwerty
“Most litvaks don’t avoid making kiddush from 6pm to 7pm.”Its a bit strong to call this halacha. And you probably dont mean 6pm to 7pm since that doesnt really make sense. 6pm to 7 pm worked prior to the advent of Standard time in the late 19th century. Since the advent of Standard time it remains 6-7 pm haalchic time or mean solar time which in NY is 5:56-6:56 (with DST it is 6:56-7:56). Admitdly not much of a difference but In Yerushalyim it is 5:39-6:39 See Yisroel Vehazmanim chapter 27 for details. (this is the most common way to calculate it the less common ways are to avoid during the first hour of shabbos regardless of what time is on the clock another way is to take the sixth hour after chatzos of that day (this is similar to the first more common method which takes 6 hours after the average chatzos )
A blanket 6-7 pm avoidance doesn’t really make senseI do like the bentching al kos example
See O”CH 158:4 MB sk 20 for washing the hands.
Could be that wine used to be expensive, so they didn’t use a kos during the week because they had none.
Kiddush between those hours is a sakana, according to the Magen Avraham, from mazel maadim, and whoever doesn’t care will be protected from the heavens.I don’t think benching with a kos is not m’akev in any situation on any day, it’s just preferable.
ubi: I don’t think standard time would matter, since the custom is based on when goyim see you pouring wine ( the concern of blood libel). I talked to some people who do still keep this, and they said when the clocks change between Daylight Savings and back, it makes no difference; ie. they don’t have to shift it by an hour. Maybe not everyone figures it this way. I’m not sure, who, other than Chabad, keeps this minhag.
Most samples here haven’t been halachas. Polygamy was mutar, but it certainly wasn’t a mitzvah. I don’t know that it was even a lehatchilah.
Tevilas Ezra was a real halachah (I think) that Litvaks no longer do.
Leaving over the peah of your field (not hair) for the poor is a halachah with it’s own Mishnah, but we don’t do it anymore.Does anyone really matir not washing before soaked vegetables, or is it just a “the masses are meikel and we do not protest” situation?
NC, What is the use of posting if you don’t read it? The Magen Avraham also in Baer Hetev in the beginning O”CH 271 say that Mazel Maadim rules over that time which is din and not to start up with it.
“since the custom is based on when goyim see you pouring wine ( the concern of blood libel).”
Very interesting. I have never heard that before .teh magen Avrohom and MAchtiz hashekel sound like it is realted to mazzel Maadim which is sholet in sixth hour
“I talked to some people who do still keep this, and they said when the clocks change between Daylight Savings and back”
Me too. and they are mistaken. And that doesnt really make sense if it depends on mazel maadim which is the “straightforawrd” understanding .
Many chasisidim keep it
What are “wen”? Is that the new hipster word for wimmin? I’m shocked by Joseph’s silence on this.
A few more examples:
duchaning in chutz learetz during the year.
non married people not wearing talis
Again, there are terutzim for both of these, though I’m not sure how satisfying they are.
When it comes to duchaning, see the RMA O”CH 128:44 saying that we only duchan on Yom Tov because we are besimcha whereas on Shabbos we worry about our weekly needs.
Talis, see the MB siman 17 sk 10 why bochurim don’t put on a talis.
There is minhag in Frankfurt to cover the Choson and Kala with a talis under the Chupah.Sephardim duchan in chutz learetz during the year. Yekkes and Sephardim wear a Talis before marriage.
So many of the “examples” in this thread only apply to subgroups while others still observe them even today.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.