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Oh, it is a very legitimate minhag. As you no doubt know, ?? ????? ???? ????
And as I no doubt have said here before, by minhagim, lo rainu is a raiah. See first shach in yoreh deah.
apushatay, I forgot the most important part- According to the Chassidim (who are the ones having the Mitzva Tantz, so let’s respect their intentions) the Mitzvah Tantz is a tremendous eis ratzon to be mispallel. When it’s your turn, have in mind to ask that all the wonderful brachos that can be present in a home set up through kiddushin should enhance the lives of the chassan & kallah for the rest of their long lives together.
We know that its called a Mitzvah Tantz, the question is if its a Mitzvas Asei or a Mitzvas Lo Sasei 😉
I’ve never been to a wedding where there was a mitzvah tantz. However, I have seen a few on youtube. It doesn’t look like such a big deal.
haifa girl: any mitzva tantz you’ve seen on you tube aint the real thing…… pity all of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about! You talk about tznius? What about the mixed shmorgs at all the litvishe weddings lets start there!
What about the mixed shmorgs at all the litvishe weddings lets start there!
Not all Litvish Shmogs are mixed. Ive been to plenty when it wasnt
Many if not most litvish shmorgs are not mixed, as zdad points out.
But more importantly, it is ok there because you are tarud in the food.
a mamin: Since I obviously don’t know what a real mitzvah tantz is, can you explain how it differs from the ones I’ve seen on youtube?
popa: Give me a break, they are not only tarud in food! Haifa girl I would love to enlighten you , but not on this website, sorry…..
you have to realize I’ve been following this thread for quite a while without commenting, even though I was ready to explode.Baruch Hashem there aren’t any real chassidim on here who can explain the real motives behind it…You are reading a one sided opinion mainly from observers that have no idea what chassidism is all about.
Its true most shmorgs are seperate, but unfortunately many men mix into the women’s section.
in my circles, which is noot modox by far, there are always mixed shmorgs.. gets to be quite an issue when theres guys who dates girls meeting by a shmorg!! even if they dont say a word, still mighty akward.. esp if they were dating seriously and have to at least acknolodge each other!!
popa: Give me a break, they are not only tarud in food!
Oh, ok. I really wouldn’t know, I don’t see what anyone else does because I’m tarud in food.
I’m not chassidish and have only been to one mitzvah tantz. I cant say i felt anything special as people have told me it’d feel. I dotn understand it and frankly, i dont care to understand it as it isnt my minhag; unless one of my children marry a chassid. I highly doubt it’s done in a derech of untznius as great chassidisher rebbes dance the mitzvah tantz. Fro those of us who dont have this minhag, it may look untznius or disturbing cuz we dont understand it. Its not written in the torah, its a mesorah of some sort.
The custom to hold hands after the chuppah is brougth up in seforim, i dont know where, but many have heard the a couple should hold hands from chupah to yichud room to minimize the hefsek.
Usually the shmorg is for the women and the men are supposed to be by teh chosons tish. Due to the fact that the food served at the chossons tish is usually just cake and herring (or something like that) and the womens section has the hot dishes, many men feel that they could go there too…But there are some close friends and family members who will go in to teh womens section to wish mazel tov to the women of the chosson/kallah as there is no other time to wish them mazel tov.
so, i went to a chasuna just to see a mitzva tantz and before they began they announced “all bachurim should leave”. why?
Tznius, apushatay.
That’s the way it’s done.
Tznius? Based on my observation of one mitzvah tantz there was absolutely nothing, a male, single or married could contort into something untznius, unless said male already had a twisted mind, in which case he shouldnt be out in the street either. I guess, to each their own.
.”…I have heard that the reason for holding hands after the chuppa is to be mamshech the kinyan from Chupa to the Yichud room. “
“… a couple should hold hands from chupah to yichud room to minimize the hefsek.”
The first quote here noted that he does not know of a source. The second quote was from the “many have heard” variety.
I would like to be enlightened as to what halachic hemshech or hefsek we are concerned with, and how exactly does holding hands alleviate this problem. Whoever answers, please make it credible and documented. If not, I and many others have more than a few kushyot to ask.
I can explain what I heard in more detail but I can’t document it, because as I said, I don’t know the source. There is a machlokes Rishonim what constitutes “Chupa” to effectuate a nisuin. The Rambam holds that the Yichud is what creates Nisuin. The Ran and others hold that the canopy that we use is the chupa that creates nisuin. Here is one version that I have heard.
The Rambam holds that “birchas nisuin” has to be made before the nisuin (i.e. before yichud). Ishus 10:3.
The Ran holds that “birchas nisuin” should be made under the chuppa. Pesachim 4a (in dafei haRif).
So what I heard is that the minhag is to be mekayem both shittos. The brochos are made under the chuppa as the Ran holds, but because according to the Rambam it is Yichud that is chuppa the brochos are properly being made before nisuin.
However, there is a problem of hefsek between the brochos and the Yichud according to the Rambam. So in order to demonstrate that the brochos under the chuppa are for the yichud too, they hold hands from under the chuppa until they get into the yichud room.
Mods can you change the title to mitzva dance?
Old Man: I mentioned it earlier. I believe it’s brought down in the T’shuvos V’hanhagos. It’s also brought down to hold her hand to take her into the Chuppah because he needs to be Machnis Osah Lirshuso.
Dear Benignuman and Rabbeinu Sam,
Thank you for your responses. All of these lumdishe machlokot are well known, whether our chupah is nisuin or not, etc… I always try to encourage the chosson to meet the kallah halfway down the aisle,take her hand, and lead her to the chupah. Most chasanim look at me like I am crazy. Of course, this lovely but rarely enacted minhag is an offshoot of the Chupas Main done in Germany.
After the chupah,I definitely encourage the choson to take his bride’s hand, they are married after all.(I think it’s wonderful to see husbands and their wives hold hands in public also,as I and my wife do, but that’s another issue)
I’ll mention that many sefardim do not have yichud at the wedding (shitat HaRan and others, as you mentioned)
heavily edited
I always try to encourage the chosson to meet the kallah halfway down the aisle,take her hand, and lead her to the chupah. Most chasanim look at me like I am crazy. Of course, this lovely but rarely enacted minhag is an offshoot of the Chupas Main done in Germany.
You always try to encourage chassanim to mix and match minhagim from whatever you like, and they look at you like you are crazy.
I am also looking at your post like you are crazy. What theory of Judaism do you have, that says you should do that with minhagim?
Dear Benignuman and Rabbeinu Sam,
I was heavily edited as you see, I’ll change it up a bit. I disagree that the concept of hefsek applies between the chupah and yichud. Too many kushyot can be asked and inadequately answered.
As an example, I always wonder on Purim morning when the gabbai announces to keep mitzvos hayom in mind when the ba’al koreh makes the Shehecheyanu on the Megilah. Isn’t this going to be a colossal hefsek? My answer: no, there is no hefsek. Apply to many other situations.
Your “disagreement” with the “concept” doesn’t override the psak of the relevant poskim who ruled it necessary.
Also, it is impermissible to show chiba in public (i.e. holding hands on the street.)
I disagree with the fear of hefsek after the chupah. In my opinion, the “relevant poskim who deem it necessary” are incorrect. It is highly recommended for a choson and kallah to hold hands after the chupah. But a requirement to avoid hefsek? No.
It is permissible and even recommended for husbands and wives to hold hands in the street.
I understand that part of the reason for holding hands is that the man ????? the wife to his house for the first time therefor there is an inyan that he holds her hand in order to be ????? her.
In some circles where the munhag is not to hold hands as one leaves the chupa (??? ????? ?? ????? ????) often they take hold of each others hands just befor ethey enter the ??? ????.
Can nayone explain what is the ???? aspect of a ???? tantz? If it is to be ???? ???? ????, why does it need to involve a garttel or holding hands?
om: You’re mistaken, though I am curious how you see holding your wife’s hand in the street any differently than hugging her (or more) in the street.
FIA,
The concept of hefsek that I explained is an explanation for a minhag, I don’t know of any poskim that hold it is required for someone who doesn’t have the minhag.
With regard to married couples holding hands in public, there is definitely a strong argument that it is mutar. The issur of chiba b’rabbim is that it might cause hirhurim to those watching. The issue is what level of chiba might cause hirhurim. The Aruch Hashulchan writes that one should avoid “chiba yiseira” in public.
Arguably holding hands is not “chiba yiseira.”
Note that the Shulchan Aruch does not bring down the shita that chiba b’rabbim is assur (it is mentioned as a “yesh omrim” in the Rama).
k sorry to veer off topic but why are mixed shmorgs allowed nowadays?
benignuman: thank you for clarifying the holding of hands from chuppah to yichud room!
ThePurpleOne: imho, i think shmorgs started out as for women but being that men dont always have the same or sometimes very little, food at the chossons tisch, they trickle into the womens section for some food. Also, this is the only time that men can really wish mazel tov to the kallah and the women of the chassunah. Not an excuse, just a thought.
as was noted by an earlier poster the often quoted source of machzor vitri is not really a source for mitzvah tantz. however the Bach in EH 21 (I think sk 5) quotes a Rashal that says it is muttar to dance with kallah but talmid chacham should refrain, the Bach finishes by saying that in places where the minhag exists it can be done and anywhere else is issur gamur. The Rama in EH 21 sif 3 (I think) quotes this kulla of the Rashal as a yesh omrim and the Chelkas Mechokek and Bais Shmuel both quote the Rashal/Bach. It is very hard to say it is assur however I personally would not take part, guess its due to my very litvish upbringing….
When my father [not at all Chassidish; see my username!] was a bachur, he was at a very good friends [also not Chassidish, but “Chassidish inclined”] Chasuna, and the Bobover Rebbe zt”l (R’ Shloime) was dancing Mitzvah Tanz, and my father and some friends were standing on chairs and watching the Rebbe.
R’ Matisyahu Solamon shlit”a was at the Chasuna, and he walked over and tapped my father and said to him “Is there anything to see?” And smiled. My father got off his chair.
I have a Litvishe grandfather who refused to dance Mitzva Tanz by his own sons Chasuna, even though there was a Mitzva Tanz because the Kallas side insisted. My Grandfather just arranged with the badchan not to call him up.
BTW – Posters have to understand that discussions about Minhaggim and the like should not be taken personally. If somebody asked for the heter about Mitzvah Tanz, it is not at all a legitimate answer – and sounds pretty immature as well – to turn around and say “Well… you have mixed shmorg!”
You can start or continue another thread ranting about the lack of tznius at certain Chasunas, or you can shout about how you love to hold your wifes hand in public and are delighted to see others doing the same and encourage it (Tribute to ridiculous post from Old Man before) – on another thread. These things are neither here nor there.
So what exactly was the point of resurrecting this old thread Erev Pesach?
Was the thought, ok as long as we’re bashing each other over eating / not eating gebrochtz, let’s find some more divisive stuff to bicker about?
IMHO we better get back to our pre Pesach preparations, and pay close attention at the Seder when one of the little kids (or grand kids) (or big kids) talks about the 12 paths in the seabed when we all crossed the Yam Suf together.
can anyone tell me how to start threads on ywn coffee room?
Makcklemore: It’s a well-kept secret. It took me a long time to figure it out ..
Why is the Chosson allowed to put a ring on his Kallah’s finger in public. Besides, isn’t getting married the extreme display of Chibah?
Please tell me Little Frog-one
On the Coffee Room Homepage, in the Table of Threads, right at the top there is a link stating “Add New”. Just click there.
But let me give you a friendly warning – if your first threads are about controversial topics, you will be labelled as a troll. So best leave it pareve for a bit before warming the world up!
Thanks yekke2.
Makcklemore, read here:
btw, I’m also practicing Yiddishkite. Maybe I’ll be perfect one day.
okay. (cough, cough.) so i looked at the gemara in kesuvos 17. and guess what? it says we don’t pasken that way. go read it yourself.
so basically it is assur for a man to look at the kallah.
honest. go look it up.
The display of chibah that is forbidden is a display that would cause hirhurrim in onlookers. Putting a ring on the Kallah’s finger is not that kind of chibah.
And the same applies to the ceremonious Mitzva Tantz.
WHY DONT MEN DESERVE A SHMORG??!!! (any jokes about oorah and i’ll smack you)
You don’t like jokes about Oorah or you don’t like Oorah? (ouch!)
It’s the same with kiddushes. Everyone complains about it- why do the nashim get all the goodies? We all know they hardly eat it and it either gets sent to their husbands or it goes to the kids, sometimes if the shul has shalashudis it comes out then. So whats pshat?
I think it is because the Ba’al Simcha gets all the leftovers, and any good food in the Mens section is bound to be polished off before you even start. So the eitzah is – put all the good food in the ladies section, where they are all either dieting or pretending to diet, and therefore creating a lot of leftovers!
Another possible pshat – the father says that just put out some coke, crisps and some herring & kichels; the mother wants something more fancy. So they do a pshara…
I’ve heard that R’Avrohom Gurwicz, the Gateshead Rosh Yeshva, holds that its a real problem in halocho to hold the gartel and dance with an eishes ish and he brings some raya from a gemoro in Kesubos
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