Mitzvah Tantz?

They are touching each other. Traditionally they are each holding on to something (a gartel is common in communities where gartels are common) and looking embarassed. It’s quite acceptable halachically and socially, and is a well established and ancient custom.

I was born and raised in New York and I find the “minhag” (for lack of a better word) repulsive. The Kallah is kept on the other side of the mechitzah throughout the wedding in a majority of these types of chasunahs and all of a sudden she is put in front of the crowd for all to see and (almost) dance with – gartel notwithstanding. I, too, don’t see how this could be considered tzanuah.

Besides the tircha of holding back the mishpacha and extra hour to 90 minutes, the only ones who seem to enjoy it is the badchan (raking in the cash by the hour) and the musician (the same applies).

I’m sure you realize by now that I’m a Misnaged (and proud of it) but I personally do not remain behind (even for mishpacha) for the “Mitzvah Tanz.” Is it really a “Mitzvah”? Does anyone know the source of such a practice?

akuperma- a gartel is only used for non-family members. Chosson and Kallah dance holding hands.

TheFrumGuy – generally speaking, only close family remain for the mitzvah tantz, that’s no stirah to the mechitzah the rest of the time. Furthermore, in many communities, the kallah’s face is covered.

The source of the minhag is in the Machzor Vitri. But today, for all intents and purposes, it is a chassidish custom.

Gamanit, some families have the chosson and kallah with a gartel as well, although they usually fold it up so it is shorter.

OP – this is not a NY thing. Come to EY and you will see it, too. The chosson and kallah do not really dance; either they sway a bit from side to side or walk around in a circle.

BTW, as far as I remember, this is not the first thread on mitzvah tantz.

I once tried to prove from the Gemara in Kesuvos 17a that there is nothing not-Tznius about dancing with your wife at the wedding (so long as it is not done in an inappropriate manner). Several big Rabbonim disagreed. I still think I’m right, but I wouldn’t Pasken it due to those who think it’s not a Ra’aya.

It is not only Chasidic. It was a long standing German custom until relatively recently that the chassan and kallah should be seen publicly holding hands after the chuppah. This is to clearly illustrate that they are now married. Although it was not universal in some German communities the chassan and kallah danced together for the last dance of the evening.

As far as tznius it was felt that this is appropriate for a wedding but not for elsewhere. The chassan and kallah never hold hands publicly again.

It is similar to the idea that one should compliment the kallah on her beauty at the wedding, but it would be considered not tnzius to do so at some other time.

Dear Hardatwork. Since you are from out of town, as you put it, chances are the following ” Minhagim ” take place at your weddings. Kallah going into the mens section and sitting next to Chosson to watch a few of his friends go nuts. Also what probably happens, Kallah gets raised on a table alongside Chosson on a table, with chosson and Kallah doing interesting dance moves for all to see. The difference between those Minhagim and the Heilige Minhag of a Mitzva Tantz, is that the Mitzvah tantz is an ancient Minhag with deep Kabbalistic sources versus the other “Minhag” that is very questionable interms of Tzenius with no Kabalistic source

ari free: BUMP!

I was at quite a few mitzvah tantzes. I dont recall any actual dancing of the chassan kallah. More like holding hands and walking back and forth. And for the record no bachurim are supposed to be there.

If you want to hock about tznius hock about the disgusting prust American minhag of having the kallah (and 50 of her friends) come in to the mens side by the dancing for quite some time. And then everyone tries to show off to the girls how awesome they dance. Pheh. Makom znus.

Purple: Don’t worry, I haven’t seen it at litvish weddings, and I’ve attended many.

The ????? ????? only mentions dancing and singing around the Chosson and the Kalla sitting together, it doesn’t say anything about anyone dancing with the Kalla in any way.

These are the sources for ????? ?????:

hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8901&st=&pgnum=206&hilite= and hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8901&st=&pgnum=193&hilite=

SAM2 wrote “I once tried to prove from the Gemara in Kesuvos 17a that there is nothing not-Tznius about dancing with your wife at the wedding”. SAM2 Where’s the proof? rav ??? dancing with your wife is ??? ???? which the Remah in ??”? ?”? brings would be assur.

So far I haven’t found any early ???? for ??? ??? dancing together, and as far as reasons go, can someone even show me a ???? in a ??????? ??? for that part of the ???? ????, and why it has to be done in public?

i hav seen a dif dance at the end of litvsh weddings.. also akward!!! like a yiddish word for empty nest.. the mother dances w (get this!!) a broom!!! cuz shes sweeping away her last child..

The dance when the last child is married is called the Mazinka. There are different traditions. In some the mother and the father dance around the bride and groom with brooms. In others the children and close relatives dance around the mother and father with brooms.

There was group of alien space explorers searching the universe for inteeligent life forms.On their journeys they chanced upon planet earth.

From their vantage point in the saucer they saw NYC with all its tall buildings and figured if intelligent life resides on this planet it must be there.

After looking around for five minutes they quickly went back to the mother ship reporting that while once possible, intelligent life no longer exists on the planet as all inhabitants seem backward and furthermore the inhabitants were so unintelligent that they didn’t even recognize the aliens as being a different life form. On they went they continued searching for intelligent life on other planets.(To bad they landed for those five minutes on October 31 otherwise they might have had a different perspective of the human race)

The same is true with perspectives on Mitzva tantz. While not all do it, it is a very holy Minhag practiced for many centuries by many great Tzadikim.

It is only because of our superficial knowledge that we cannot appreciate it properly.I am sure if spent more then five minutes thinking about it descriptions such as weird, untzniyus disturbing would not be used.

(you still might not want to have a mitzva tantz but at least you will know why people have them)

The Muzinka/broom dance was bought about by the early not-frum yiddishists and is not a minhag at all.Due to being unaware of its roots and having a yiddishe name it has become more commonplace over the years. Many people are not aware of this.

Regarding using brooms during the dance around the parents:

As more then one Gadol I heard basically put it(paraphrasing direct conversations): A Yiddishe mother and father should never, even after marriage of a child mimic sweeping kids out of the house or to give a sign that chasvishalom their jobs are done. Davka especially as they send them off they should always show signs of open homes to the new couple where they could come for advice and IM Yirtze Hashem show that they keep a place where they and their future families are welcome.

A Rosh Yeshiva (now in the Olam Haemes) was once so upset after witnessing people dancing with the brooms by a wedding that he spoke out against the practice publicly as he realized people were just totally unaware of where the broom dance originated and what it signifies .

As one older Rav once told me.”It is a tremendous accomplishment to see all children married and the parents (even with a possible dance around them)should be acknowledged but this could be done without the broom.”

May we have only Simchas in Klal Yisroel

Ben: I believe that R’ Shternbuch in the T’shuvos V’hanhagos quotes holding hands from the Chuppah to the Yichud room.

ZD: Look at that Gemara again. He was allowed because there’s no Derech Chibah because she was like a Korah Shel Eitz (I think I once saw a Tzitz Eliezer attempt to answer why there’s no Issur for her but I don’t remember). But if there was a separate Issur of Pritzus of dancing in public then it should have been Assur anyway. Thus, at the very least, we are Mattir this dancing for the purpose of Simchas Chassan V’kallah. I still think it’s a strong Ra’aya.

I would say that the way some chasanim dance for their kallahs and the kallah waives like a maniac is called derech chibah but I would rather call it pathetic

Ben: But how does everyone know that this Amora with a Kallah dancing on his shoulders isn’t showing Chibah? And look at his answer to his Talmidim. Even if you say that he’s a world-famous Rabbi and everyone knows, not all his Talmidim were.

Yeshivish7

Theres no heter for the kallah to come into the mens section period! All it causes is that the boys look at her and of course at her many friends that want to be kallahs and think they belong by the mens section. It also leads to the boys dancing to show off to the girls as well as shmiras eynayim issues and hirhurim.

Yserbius123/benignuman – By a Chupas Niddah, there is no Mitzvah Tantz between the Chosson and Kallah at all. Yes, it is very embarrassing!

That is why in more heimish and chassidishe circles additional precautions are taken to ensure it doesn’t happen. V’Hamyvin Yavin.

Lets put the halachic inquiry on the side for a moment. My nephew is getting married and I am told there will be a mitzva tantz, and of course as a “choshuve” uncle I will be “called up”. Coming from a family of litvaks, what does it mean “called up” by a mitzva tantz. what am I expected to do, or not do. The only marching orders I have from my wife are, “dont make a fool out of yourself”. I am also told that I should be sure to “tip the badchan”. How much of a tip do you give? why would I give him a tip anyway, I dont tip the waiters by the meal, or the musicians after the dancing. Is the badchan hired and paid by someone, or does the bulk of his wages come from tips like the coat room attendant and the valet parking guys? Does it depend on the stature of the badchan, does it depend on what he says about me and how much chanifa comes my way before he calls me up? My preference is to leave after birchas hamazon, but for matter of shalom bayis, I have no choice but to stay and (hopefully) enjoy the festivities.

apushatayid,

Also, don’t forget to hand $500 in cash to the stranger standing nearby who will be wearing a yellow polka dot tie.

When and where is the wedding?

apushatayid – Trust me the badchan gets paid a nice fee, he is not living of your tip. $5 – $10 is more than enough.

Enjoy your first Mitzvah tantz – you’ll see its not as bad as your Litvishe friends make it out to be. You might even come to agree to those of us who know that bringing the Kallah in to the men’s side during dancing is significantly less tzniyusdik.

Oh, it is a very legitimate minhag. As you no doubt know, ?? ????? ???? ???? .

It is thoroughly documented, including pictures, in Rav Binyomin Shlomo Hamburger’s well known “Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz”, Vol. 4. I’m surprised you’re not familiar with it. Nothing like doing a little homework before casting doubts..