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Mischiefmaker:
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ICOT
Thanks for your reply, and for confirming that it sounds OK. Your assumptions seem correct to the best of my knowledge. The fan wire will be connected to the additional spliced wires that were not connected to the old fixture.
Interesting point about adding an outlet. I wasn’t planning to do that, and now I will continue to not plan it :).
Just for fun, I told my friend the joke I heard here, “What’s black and crispy and hangs from a ceiling fan?”, and we laughed until he fell off the ladder.
If there is a black (hot) wire connected to a white (neutral) wire and there is electricity flowing to the black wire- wouldn’t that blow a fuse?
Dr. P- yes it would. But that is not happening here. The hot wire passes above the fixture to the wall switch, then back to the fixture where it is connected as normal.
I think I’m missing something. Please let me know where I’m going wrong.
There are two sets of three wires, each set has a black (hot) wire, a white (neutral) wire and a bare (ground) wire.
The bare wires from both sets are connected to each other and the frame of the fixture. One of the remaining sets of black and white wires are connected to the corresponding black and white wires from the fixture and the other black and white wire are connected to each other.
Is that correct?
Forget the actual wire color for a moment. According to ICOT’s explanation, 3 of the four wires are hot (even though one of those 3 are colored white).
Thanks again, ICOT. Now my question is, why would a licensed, qualified electrician wire a circuit in this way? Obviously, it suits my current needs well, but for a simple fixture this seems to be an inefficient set up. Additionally, this set up means that the fixture itself is always live, whether the switch is on or off.
Is this bad practise?
Icot- thank you again. There is only one word to describe you, but I can’t say it here because miktzas shevocho b’fonov 😉
the second diagram is exactly what i have. Did you draw those or find them?
i dont understand the point in splicing the black wire in the fixture box. is it b/c ur connecting it to the fan?
oh thanx i looked at the your diagram again and now i think i understand that instead of having to run one big loop of a black wire and a white one u just need one strait line of both a black and a white wire b/c the electricity is coming from the other end
Round 2: The ceiling fan is hooked up in the way ICOT described and works very well! My friend offered to dismantle an existing fan and perform the rewiring on it so that the fan can be controlled separately. However, when he opened up the fixture there appears to be only a single cable with a black, white, and bare wire.
Assuming this meant a “switch before” configuration, he proceeded to open the wall switch box, hoping to verify it against the drawing. However, what we found was odd. There is a single cable with four wires – a black, a white, a bare, and a loose wire (that is capped and taped). Only the black and the white are connected to the switch. The bare wire is connected to the metal wall plate.
My two-fold question is, what am I looking at, and how is it possible that there seem to be no additional wires going outside this connection? Any help would be appreciated.
Note: The fan is/was mounted to a ceiling fan rated box, which I understand may be installed inside another ceiling box. If so, perhaps there are more wires inside the first box that I cannot see without removing the fan box? I will remove the fan box to check on this.
You are crystal clear, as usual. What you are saying makes sense and I will investigate it further (rather, have it investigated further :-)) and report back. Thank you.
if you feel uncomfortable doing electrical work then make sure you hire a LICENSED electrician. http://www.electriciansnetworks.com is a good place to start–they all have current licenses and they give free estimates with no obligation.
Update
ICOT, I believe that your guess is correct. I know there are other electrical boxes that are covered because I painted them (heh heh). Rather than ruin the paint job to try and run a wire through a ceiling that probably does not have a big enough hole, I decided to leave well enough alone and leave both the light and the fan connected to the switch.
yobwej, that’s good advice, but my method is that if I feel uncomfortable doing the work without a licensed electrician I just leave it alone 🙂
422.18 Support of Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fans.
Ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be supported independently
of an outlet box or by listed outlet box or outlet
box systems identified for the use and installed in accordance
with 314.27(D).
410.36 Means of Support.
(C) Luminaire Studs. Luminaire studs that are not a part
of outlet boxes, hickeys, tripods, and crowfeet shall be
made of steel, malleable iron, or other material suitable for
the application.
I can only try-
Question for you-
I bought a Craftsman digital voltmeter so I could fix the refrigerator. It’s much more advanced than the one I used as a kid.
There are two wires (black and red) but three holes- grey, black and red. I’m curious to know what the grey one is used for. There is a warning on it- “10A For 30 sec. MAX every 15 min. FUSED”. I have no idea what it means but I’m nervous to experiment.
Can you shed any light?
Just came back to this thread, and saw there was much action here for the past 4 months, all of which I missed, somehow.
As far as the problem with overloading a fixture (100 watt bulb for 60 watt fixture) ICOT is 100% correct. More current will flow than the system is rated for, generating more heat than the fixture is rated for, which is a fire hazard, as ICOT says.
Mod-80, that business of pulling electrons from the air is a very creative and radical theory, but I don’t think it is accurate at all. Voltage is what pulls electrons. How many get pulled as a result is the current that flows. It is true that a very high voltage can cause arcing which looks like lightning, but that cannot happen here. 120 volts or even 240 is not enough to cause arcing. If it were enough, then every time you turned a switch off, it would be a hazard, because the electrons would try to jump across the switch contacts. Every electric socket in your home, even if not used, would be a hazard, because electrons would try to jump from one conductor to the other. But even 240 volts is safe for arcing, so we don’t have to worry.
Whether you use a 60 or 100 watt bulb, the voltage is the same. a 100 watt bulb has less resistance in the filament, which allows more current to flow, and more heat and light to be generated.
Note that arcing is caused by a very high voltage which does rip electrons from the protons and neutrons of the atom. While air is a very good insulator until a point, it will break down in a high enough voltage. In your car, there are spark plugs for each cylinder. There is a transformer which converts a lower voltage to a very high voltage (I think in the tens of thousands). This causes elctrons to jump between the terminals. The resulting spark ignites the gas vapor and explodes in the cylinder, pushing the piston down with great force which turns your wheels via connecting shafts. Lightning is a form of arcing caused by high voltages in the clouds which develop possibly due to friction, like when you rub against wool and touch a doorknob.
Dr. Pepper and ICOT, I just looked up the Craftsman site, and it has pictures, so I see what it looks like.
ICOT is mainly correct. In general, the older meters have manual ranging, which means you must turn a knob so that the range covers the voltage you are trying to measure. In other words, if you are trying to measure 1.5 volts, you should make sure the range (max voltage) is bigger, say 2 volts. You select different voltages, and different functions (current ranges or resistance ranges or even other tests like diodes and transistors) with the click knob. When measuring small voltages, you will get more accuracyy when using a small range. But if you use a small range for high voltages, you may blow out the meter.
The newer technology meters have auto ranging. You just select amps or volts or whatever, and it adjusts the range so you get best accuracy, and yet don’t have to worry about blowing it out, since it will automatically switch ranges on its own.
However, there is a limit to everything. It seems that if you want to measure currents bigger than an amp (please see instruction book) you must plug the probe into a different hole than for the smaller currents. This one is able to handle larger currents safely.
The model 82312 which I am looking at, has a black terminal which is always for the ground or negative probe. The red one is for the positive probe when measuring most voltages and the lower currents. The gray one is for the positive probe when measuring high currents either DC or AC. Note that the dial is gray for the high DC or AC current settings to remind you to switch the probe into the other terminal. The other settings on the dial are red.
In addition, even with the high current settings and terminals, you can’t run it continously, only for short times. It tells you maximum 10 A and only for 30 seconds every 15 minutes, or it will fry. It must cool down in between measurements.
I can only try-
The repairs are long finished, I knew enough about voltmeters from high school to get the job done. I was just curious about the additional features.
(The problem was that the defrost heater was busted, a brand new one cost much less than the price of the technician walking through the front door!)
You may find this amusing-
The kids wanted to know how to use my “new toy” so I showed them how test batteries and outlets. By the continuity tester, I told them that it’s a love tester. If someone wants to know if they love someone else, they hold the red wire and the other person holds the black wire. If the voltmeter beeps when the ends are touched it means that he/ she loves the other person. It comes in handy when two of them have a disagreement and one says “I don’t like you anymore”. I tell them that it’s not true and make them take the “love” test. The results are always positive.
(It gets me nervous when they test to see if the baby loves them.)
ICOT, thanks for the promotion. But my training unfortunately is mostly textbook and theoretical, but when it comes to actual home wiring, one needs shimush and real experience, and I don’t have that. Learning electronics and learning electrical wiring are really different skills. Knowing how to run wires through conduits and walls and boxes is something I know little about. But understanding what is happening to the elctrons, and interpreting the various numeric quantities is something I do have training in.
BTW, a while back we discussed taking out dimmers and putting in regular switches to use with the new compact flourescent bulbs to save money. WHile I never got around to installing the switches, I decided to try the bulbs anyway. They seem to actually work fine with the dimmer controls, (as long as they are all the way on). If anybody knows anything more, please share.
ICOT, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I will install those switches at earliest opportunity. The store where I usually do my Shabbos shopping had the CFLs for a good price, so I bought a whole bunch. I also liked that they have a warm tone. Most flourescent bulbs have a very unpleasant harsh cold tone.
I can only try-
Instigator holds the black one, victim holds the red one. They touch the metal contacts together. BEEEEP.
It works just as well if either party has a pacemaker.
ICOT, In one bedroom of our house there was a ceiling light fixture that was totally worn out, frayed and possibly blackened, although it worked fine. I thought it was a big danger. I went to Lowes, and bought new fixture for 6 dollars. I thought would be simple job of unscrewing old one, unwrapping wires in electrical box, twisting new ones, putting on caps, and screwing new fixture back into box.
However, I found there was no box!!! The oisvarf who did the work before, just screwed fixture into the wood. I found two exposed wires (and also a conduit shield) buried in insulation. I tested the live wires against the conduit shield to find which was power, and then connected to the black wire of new fixture and other to white. I twisted the braided wires of the new fixture to the solid wires of line (which does not hold very well, even with cap), and screwed fixture into the metal bracket he had put in the wood.
I know this is very dangerous, and I guess I will need an electrican to fix. I did it temporarily because I reasoned that without a light, it is just as dangerous, if not more so, to have those live wires just lying around in the wood. I am also concerned that if water gets into the attic from any leak, it can cause a short. I did not use tape, as didn’t have any on hand. I probably should redo it with electrical tape. However, it works for now, so I don’t want to mess with it, especially since it was hard getting caps to stay on solid wire.
So may questions are:
1) This is not a new house (built in 1930’s). Was there ever a time when the code did not require a fixture box?
2) Can I install the box myself? The wire seems very short, I don’t know if the entire conduit line can be pulled so that there is more length, or if it is too short to go any more.
3) How would one splice conduit to make it longer, if necessary?
4) Is this common, that some guy will wire up something so dangerous, and just cover it up and hope nobody will ever find out. How did he get away with this.
5) Would you recommend an electrician to do all of what needs to be done, rather than doing it myself. I do not want to cut holes in ceiling and plaster and paint myself.
6) When I first bought the fixture, the guy in Lowes said they would install it, but would be 140 dollars. That is crazy expensive for a 6 dollar fixture, so I figured I would save big and do it myself. However, now that I see what a mess the previous installation is, what would you recommend? What do you think an electrician would charge to do all the necessary work here?
Thanks for any advice.
Never noticed this thread before. Quite new here. Anyways, someone I know covered his walls with aluminium foil for Pesach. Any reason why his outlets started sizzling and smoking?
Just make sure the electrician is licensed or the employee doing the job is competent.
Zeeskite – pictures, please??
wanderingchana:
You DON’T want to see!
ICOT:
Sorry. The story was true, the question was (obviously – I thought) in jest. Of course the one who did the covering pushed it in the sockets (ouch) to make a fit. It did – it made a fit!
Pushed it in the sockets with what, a fork???
omgosh… I hope no one was injured, and more importantly, learned something…
Don’t know, maybe a (metal) screwdriver. A shocking experience! No – it wasn’t me. I just heard about it from the live conductor – live and kicking (B”H).
Oh, how I wish I were an electron on the wall.
I know about that. Enough shocking revelations to teach me to keep myself and electricity (of high voltage) at a distance. (I can tell you what one zap of 10,000 volts feels like!)
Just wondering, your name prompts me, how many try-outs did you do to perfect in electricity? (how many fried…)
KIDDING
Switched ground is very very bad, dangerous, and beyond irresponsible. Never trust wire color. Always verify. Some memorable shocks of mine: Moving the bx line of a pump away from a wet hazard. The jacket cut into the hot and I convulsed and locked on. Lucky me, I was standing on a steep incline, and was able to fall away. This altered my heart rhythm. After some months of following a different heartbeat, I was working on something that had the tell tale switched ground. Not paying enough attention, I backhanded it, and my went flying in the opposite direction. That set my heart straight again, but with some shoulder pain, and we never did find the screws that had been in that hand. The absolute worst, was getting the pulsed 10,000 volts intended for an oil burner ignition. On that occasion I quickly took my pulse to verify that I was still alive, because standing up was just not convincing enough.
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