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This is an offshoot of this thread http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/schlissel-challah but I think it deserves a thread of its own.
On Rosh chodesh Nissan sombody made an announcement that struck me as strange. He said “There is a minhag to say the nassi during Nissan and he began to say it” (no sefer Torah involved) some people started saying and some looked around blankly. A few asked what the minhag was, they were told the minhag and they began to say it.
It struck me when the fellow said “there is a minhag” clearly not to the people with blank stares looking around. So why shouls they say it? becasue the guy announcing it has a minhag?
As LF wonderfully put it on the above mentioned thread “I (again, in all my haughtiness) rely on Mesorah; as my fathers and Rabbis did, so do I. They believed and taught me to believe in HaShem, His Torah, His Mitzvohs and His Torah greats. “
Shouldnt this work both ways? If you have a minhag to say it. Of course say it! if not why start?
When I was a kid, I vivdly remember Rebeim asking who had the minhag of shlisel Chalah. I went to a quazi-chasidish cheder yet in a class of about 25 2 or 3 people had this minhag. Today every yankee doodle is running to do this minhag. stores are even selling shlissel Chalahs with keys inside (regardless of the mekor). On that thread somebody asked “Is the minhag to eat the Shlissel Challah this Friday night or by the Shabbos afternoon seuda?” Why are you asking us? What did you do last year? If you didnt do it last year, why are you starting now? It seems strange to me to run around adopting other people’s minhagim.
I am not talking about any issur. Rather as Froggie put it people should “rely on Mesorah; as m[their] fathers and Rabbis did”
Why this shopping for other peoples minhagim?
OP: Great point. People with the minhag should steadfastly continue following it. And others should not only not criticize them for following their minhagim but should support them for doing so. And those with a mesorah that does not include following the specified minhag, should not adapt it.
I don’t see your point. Yes, there is no reason to do something that isn’t in your mesorah. But why shouldn’t a person decide to accept on himself something extra? If there is meaning behind a minhag (which there probably is), and it isn’t just meaningless hocus pocus, then why shouldn’t a person want to add to his minhagim?
Yekkes traditionally have not done Kapparos. Yekkes do not go to Mikvah daily or weekly (some go Erev Yom Tov, some only Erev Yom Kippur). Isn’t it too strong to say that a yekke shouldn’t go to Mikvah on every Friday?
Joseph: Ah, but what if I know the Mekor of the Minhag and know that it’s a Minhag Shtus?
Sam: But what if despite your “historical research” that leads you to what you “know”, it is in fact wrong and has nothing whatsoever to do with the beginning of the minhag?
People with the minhag should steadfastly continue following it. [snip] And those with a mesorah that does not include following the specified minhag, should not adapt it.
I assume you meant “adopt,” not “adapt.”
And that was the dilemma I was faced with on Shabbos. I don’t have a mesorah to say Yizkor during the first year and I don’t have a mesorah not to.
In the end, I said Yizkor.
The Wolf
I am so sorry about your loss, Wolf.
I am so sorry about your loss, Wolf.
Thank you.
The Wolf
in the end you should have touched base with your Rabbi, and followed his guidance.
He would have given you 1 of the 3 options that exist, but the one that is the right one for you:-
1) Stay in Shul & recite Jizkor.
2) Stay in Shul & don’t recite Jizkor.
3) Leave the Shul & don’t recite Jizkor.
Joseph: And how do we know a lot of things? At some point you have to trust that there is Siyata Dishmaya in our knowledge. How do we know our Girsaos in the Gemaros and Rishonim are right? Some of the Geonim had radically different Girsaos in entire Sugyos. And don’t get me started on Girsaos in Kodshim, especially M’ilah.
The fact is, HKBH doesn’t expect us to get these things right. He expects us to do our due diligence (which doesn’t necessarily include historical research) and try to learn the best we can and the rest is just Siyata Dishmaya. In an issue on which I am confident that there is overwhelming historical evidence that a Minhag is a Minhag Shtus, we can assume that HKBH wants us to recognize that it’s a Minhag Shtus.
A parallel case: I have a distant relative who removed/covered all mirrors in the house when she had her first child because if an infant sees their own reflection before their teeth grow in, their teeth will never grow in. In fact, I could find you a source in a relatively-recent Sefer that says such a thing. Now, empirical evidence dictates that babies see their reflection in the mirror and yet their teeth still grow in. We can research how such a Minhag/superstition came about (it is not limited to Judaism in the slightest), but the empirical evidence saying the reason is false, coupled with the fact that I can find this superstition mentioned in secular sources long before it’s ever mentioned in a Jewish source, tells me it’s a Minhag Shtus and the Sefer that quoted it was just relating what he had heard from superstitious people on this and made the same “Im Lav Neviim” assumption.
you should have touched base with your Rabbi, and followed his guidance.
He would have given you 1 of the 3 options that exist, but the one that is the right one for you:-
1) Stay in Shul & recite Jizkor.
2) Stay in Shul & don’t recite Jizkor.
3) Leave the Shul & don’t recite Jizkor.
Too late now.
The Wolf
Ubiquitin, I agree with you, but I think the reason this one has taken off is the same reason as parshas hamon – they’re a segulah for parnassah.
The minhag to recite the nesi’im during Nissan is the minhag of my shul. It is expressly written in Tukochinsky’s famous Luach Minhagei Eretz Yisrael and is practiced by most if not all Ashkenazic shuls in Israel. It corresponds to the dates that the nesi’im brought their sacrifices after the Mishkan was built, after Shivat Y’mei Ha’miluim.
Please don’t compare it to shlissel challah.
Kudos to the person who had the guts to introduce a custom to a shul filled with well meaning but poorly educated mispallelim.
The Wolf:
And that was the dilemma I was faced with on Shabbos. I don’t have a mesorah to say Yizkor during the first year and I don’t have a mesorah not to.
In the end, I said Yizkor.
The first time yizkor came up during my first year in aveilut, I asked our Rav. He said the general minhag in E”Y is not to say it the first year, so I didn’t.
I, too, am sorry for your loss.
takahmamash:- My Rov also told me not to say it during 1st year, not even during the 12th month when Kaddish is already not being recited twice, which occurred twice during my stint, having Jizkor in 12th month.
WolfishMusings:- Not too late, as you have 6 weeks left to get Jizkor proceedings on Shovu’os correctly performed.
ubiquitin:
Sorry, the mistakes are yours. You obviously do not live in Israel and are unfamiliar with Tukochinsky’s luach. It is not just a quick guidebook to whether we say tachanun or not. In America, where there are endless variations in minhagim due to the melting pot effect of European immigration,they still argue whether to duchen on shabbos yom tov, whether to say Av Harachamim, and whether to have separate minyanim for tefillin (non) wearers on chol hamoed. The Ezras Torah luach does not decide these matters.
In Israel in the Ashkenazic non-chassidish community, except for minor exceptions, Tukochinsky’s luach rules. There are minhagim that are minhag Eretz Yisrael and everyone keeps them, or should. Check it out, you may learn something you don’t know. And come and visit us sometime, too bad you missed our bi’ur ma’asrot recitation this past Yom Tov after mincha. Don’t know what that is? It’s never too late to learn.
As for picking up new minhagim, lack of awareness of any minhag will always prevent one from adopting it. Learn, consider, and decide. Get rid of the silly minhagim and adopt the ones that make sense.Make yiddishkeit make sense and not nonsense.
Ubiquitin, nowadays minhagim are passed down from father to son (or in some cases, mother to daughter), but that’s because we are living in a melting pot. Minhagim used to be based on where one lived, and even today, if one moves to a place with firmly established minhagim, he probably should adopt them. Most places are not that way, though.
Old man, although I think I’m agreeing with you on that point, I disagree with dropping a minhag because “it doesn’t make sense”. Minhag Yisrael Torah hi applies even when we don’t understand it.
The story goes that someone asked R’ Yackov Kameneztky Z’l what minhag he followed when reciting havdala (sitting or standing). He replied, “my fathers”.
I am not a posek, but there may be an issue of being mattir neder for someone to change their minhag from A to B (or from yes do something to no dont do it). Always consult a Rav.
I do agree with the OP that minhagim have gone too global; one’s minhag should follow those of their father and their Rabbeim, not their neighbors (although there are cases that minhag ha’makom does apply).
That said, there is nothing wrong with adopting the minhagim of others that one finds meaningful, as long as it does not contradict one’s already existing minhag.
Wolf, I, too, am sorry for your loss. For the record, I happened to be at Rav Moshe Tuvia Lieff’s derasha on leil acharon shel Pesach. After discussing the various opinions and rationales, his ruling was that in the absence of a clear family minhag to refrain from saying Yizkor, one should recite Yizkor even during the first year.
I think we would do well to remember that this is a debate, not a fight. We can have a spirited discussion without impugning each other’s stature. ??? ?????.
Of course, in E”Y or any place which has a prevailing minhag hamakom, that minhag is the norm to which all individuals are bound to adhere. It is important to realize that the reason individuals follow those minhagim is not that they appeal to the emotions (or logic) of the congregant, but that Halacha demands this degree of conformity.
It is true that no such overriding minhag exists in [most communities in] the US, which leads to the great diversity of minhagim that exists here.
Ignorance of your family minhag on my part serves at best as an indication that my family does not share that minhag. There is no reason for this to cause any condescension or derision on the part of those whose families do take part in the minhag in question.
In general, the idea of adopting minhagim because of their appeal (whether spiritual or material) represents a fundamental misunderstanding of basic concepts of Judaism.
With regards to adopting minhagim for their material appeal, I think people are so caught up in what it is they are trying to attain, that they do not realize the danger involved in these minhagim and segulos. You can not “trick” Hashem in to granting your fantasy of being wealthy by putting a key in a challah. The segulah-craze (in which people attempt to manipulate Hashem into granting “refuos, yeshuos and parnassa”) which has gripped our noble People of late is lamentably close to avoda zara.
As far as those minhagim whose appeal is spiritual, I think many people do not have a clear idea about the sort of ruchniyus they want to achieve. Our conception of spirituality is based not on what makes us feel spiritual, but on what we are told by Hashem will elevate us into spiritual beings. Without discussing the basis for the particular minhag, it is important to realize that adherence to, and reverence of, our tradition is the keystone of our relationship with HKBH. If we are willing to erode this for the warm, fuzzy feeling of a “nice minhag,” we have compromised the integrity of the entire structure, ch”v.
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catch yourself: Interesting. I wonder what the logic of that is. I would have thought that we should minimize the saying of Yizkor in cases of doubt because there are Shailos involved in the whole Minhag anyway.
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