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I notice most people say Tachnun at Mincha. My problem is this.
My father does not say TAM. I asked him, and he said that when he was growing up in Flatbush, no one said it.
So I don’t say for this reason but it seems to be perhaps not relevent for me, or is it?
of course ask a Posek
i believe the velt is generally noheig to follow the Minhag of the shul you are davening in, regardless of your family or cultural Minhag.
i think that is the Halacha for something that is visible as to what you are doing, such as Tachanun or saying Kaddish
something private like the nusach of the silent Shemoneh Esrei is different.
At the very least, even if you don’t say tachanun at all, if you are davening in a shul where they daven nusach Sefard and say the 13 middos during tachanun, you should say them along with the tzibbur.
The Wolf
How does not saying Tachnun get to have the status of a Minhag?
I daven at a chasidishe shul and they never ever say Tachnun by Mincha
How does not saying Tachnun get to have the status of a Minhag?
call it what you will.
it is the way of conduct of most Chasidich Shuls, sanctioned by the Rav.
and it is not proper to Daven there and do so in a way that publicly contradicts their way of Davening.
I daven mincha in the YIoF several times a week, as a practice, this shul does say tachnun, so, if your father did not, it is probably because he grew up in a place where they did not say tachnun.
Moderator-80:I have seen many people after the completion of the davening say tachunun and not during.
ive seen the same thing many times.
thats different.
thats how many Poskim hold
i imagine because it is respectful
It makes the most sense because 1)you are not being soisar 2)you are fulfilling your halchic obligation.
pretty much what i thought
I recently saw in the sefer ashrei haish pg 275(piskei Rav Eliyashiv) that one should say tachunun in its right place which is after chazaras hashatz.
One issue I heard is if the repetition of Shemoneh Esrei finishes after either sunset or some minutes afterwards, not to say Tachanun.
What is the most prevalent custom?
I once heard that there is a big inyun to have a lot of kavana during tachanun and since most don’t have proper kavana nowadays so the chasidim decided it’s better not to say it at mincha when people are more rushed. By shachris they say it but they are very meikel about finding an “excuse” not to say it because of the kavana issue, especially on Mondays and Thursdays because of the inyan of kavana by long tachanun.
It is well known that the chassidim do not say and never did say tachanun at mincha. Misnagdim do, as do Sefardim. Why don’t the chassidim say it? Possibly because they finish chazaras hashatz way after shkiah and tachanun is not said way after shkiah. This is conjecture, I have not seen anyone else suggest it, but it makes sense.
Tachanun is not said on the Yahrtziet’s of Chassidic rebbe’s, sfrardik Tzadikim etc and thus it is not said at all because nearly every day there is a different tzadik to remember
misnagdim say it twice a day good luck to them
the Halacha is that Tachanun may be recited until Tzeis. Since most Chassidim follow Rabbeinu Tam’s Tzeis, this should rarely be an issue.
Hello: I have long suggested the same as Old Man and been told by knowledgeable Rabbonim that that is most likely the source for the Minhag.
The general minhag (quoted in M”B IIRC) is not to say tachanun at mincha ketana. Some people don’t know any better and skip it at any mincha.
Galitzianer chassidishe minhag in my family, not to say. All the Litvishe and Yeshivishe and BT from Litvishe orgs notwithstanding, still do so, unless I am the Shliach tzibur in a place where they do say, in which case I do like the minhag of the tzibur
Josh31: It is said in sefer ashrei haish that the minhag is not to say tachanun after skeia and lav davka b’yerushalyim.Even if one hilds like the MB to say tachanun after skeia if one davens in a place that doesn’t one does not have to,and in the a case where they do say but you do not you are allowed to say it.
I checked it out with a very knowledgable friend who grew up in very chassidishe circles. He laughed when I asked him why Chassidim don’t say tachanun and said it is simply because they finish too late.
I agree that it was silly of me to suggest shkiah as a limiting point for chassidim, they do indeed hold Rabbeinu Tam for the most part, and were never afraid of shkiah. But Wertheim’s book on chassidic minhagim mentions that many chassidim would daven two hours after shkiah, way past Rabbeinu Tam. Since tachanun after dark is a kabbalistic no-no, it seems that there was never enough daylight to say tachanun.
Also, since tachanun has never been a popular chassidic sport (rebbe’s yahrzeits, etc…), it is not surprising that it was totally disregarded at mincha as time went on.
Closing off, my friend was once caught by his father saying tachanun at mincha, and said to him, “What are you doing? Are you a mishigineh?” I rest my case.
P.S. I have not found this phenomenon of skipping tachanun at mincha mentioned in any official halachah sefer or minhag sefer. I’d be happy if someone found a source or at least an official explanation.
Sam2: I don’t disagree that this is likely the source of the Minhag; however, it would appear to be mistaken. If Mincha was concluded before Tzeis, there is no reason to omit Tachanun.
Hello: The whole Minhag is a mistake anyway. You skip Tachanun on days when you Daven on time because you’re worried you won’t Daven on time? It makes no sense to being with, regardless of the source.
We daven in a nusach sefard shul and once after shacharis a guy asked us why we had not said tachnun. My father in law replied “hello, it is thursday!”
Tachanun has several unusual rules that make it less like the rest of davening and more like the reading of the Torah that requires a Minyan of 10 and an actual Torah.
It is omitted in a house of mourning. The leaning aspect is omitted if there is no Sefer Torah. The 13 attributes portion in Nusach Sefard requires a Minyan.
Perhaps these above rules may point to a characteristic that supports the custom of not saying it after sunset???
My rav says to say it yourself after davening but without putting your head down to avoid lo sisgodedu.
The suggestion to say tachanun (in a place they didn’t) without putting the head down is an elegant way out; I like it, and I do it myself.
Tachanun after dark (or shkiah as per the misnagdim and minhag yerushalayim according to R’ Elyashiv) , according to kabbalistic sources , increases the aspect of “din”, and since nightime is already associated with “din”, the combination is regarded as too much; hence, no tachanun after dark.
A few more points. There are poskim who advise saying tachanun even without a Sefer Torah present, albeit without leaning.
According to many, the Yud Gimel Midos may be said without a minyan, providing they are read as if reading (leining) from the Torah.
old man -“According to many, the Yud Gimel Midos may be said without a minyan, providing they are read as if reading (leining) from the Torah.”
I never do because that’s not the reason I’m saying it -so even though technically it’s ok -whom are you fooling?
As far as Tachnum in Mincha -I’m pretty sure that it is a Minhag not to say. While I believe this Minhag started because sometimes Mincha was finished too late to say Tachnum -this has become the Minhag (Not saying) all the time – No matter when you actually finish!
Health: Apparently all the Poskim who bring this down (and I don’t know of any who disagree) are just fooling themselves, aren’t they?
Sam2 – They were on the Madriega to mainly think I’m doing it just like I’m reading in the Torah and secondly for Tachnum. I think most people nowadays will think I’m doing it for Tachnum, but I’m laining it to get out of the need to have 10.
Health: Look them up. It is very clearly intended as an Eitzah to those who want to say the whole Nusach Hat’fila but don’t have a minyan.
Sam – I know that, but I don’t think the avg. guy can use it. Because you can’t fool Hashem. They meant it -if mostly your Kavana is that you’re actually laining the Parsha. A little bit of your Kavana can be B’derech Techina!
Health: Actually look it up. I think the opposite is Mevuar. As long as you make it look like you’re reading Pessukim it’s okay, even if your main Kavanah is to Daven.
Sam – I’ll look it up again Bli neder when I have the time. When I learnt it -I don’t recall learning it like you.
In the sefer Halachically Speaking Volume II, they bring from the Gaon Rav Belsky zatzal the custom to omit TAM has no real source and one who davens in a place where it is omitted should say it in a corner by himself after davening.
They also bring from Rav Moshe that you can say TAM until 8 minutes after shkia (in America).
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