Minhag Hamakom

How are women driving “an eyesore”?

Joseph- would you be okay with a woman driving a car where the driver sits on the right side with her husband sitting on what’s usually the driver’s side of the car?

“There’s still the issue of the tznius woman being an eyesore”

That’s not a halachic reason, and since you didn’t provide any source I’ll assume it’s because you can’t because there are none. Unlike the more left-wing posters, I would be willing to hear you out were you to provide any real evidence. Also, unlike them, I am not belittling this minhag or claiming you’re making it up. However, claiming that lo tisgodedu applies here seems to be made up by you.

On a side note, Ezras Nashim for sure operates in Williamsberg. I thought they even originated there. Their Satmar volunteers do not drive.

Joseph- you didn’t answer my question

Neville, why would you assume that lo tisgodedu is inapplicable?

I remember learning in kvuda bas melech that minhag hamakom only works to up a standard, not lower it. And of course it can’t compromise halacha.

So if I visit anywhere and my Rabbonim hold its best to wear a sheitel, I keep the sheitel.

But if I know that the wedding im attending in willi the people there only wear black id probably have to wear black but not sure if that’s a Tznius thing or a minhag hamakom thing or both.

If I go to a bungalow colony where people wear flip-flops I can’t do that because it lowers my standards.

And the meah shearim lady would not be able to take off her shawl if that is considered a higher standard is tznius.

BTW regarding women drivers the Rebbe explicitly told people is not our minhag to forbid women from driving but it depends if it’s the minhag hamakom by them. If it is they need to be careful about it there.

There you go, Neville. A Psak that “our women may drive in our community, but if they go to a community where driving is forbidden for women then our women are not permitted to drive there.”

Yeshivish women drive and they drive often in Williamsburg as there are often alot of wedding there

https://www.ezras-nashim.org/endorsements/

Mods, it’s up to you whether or not you want to let it through. I don’t know of any other way to give a source to refute him speaking on behalf of the Gedolei Hador.

Actually Joseph in some yeshivish velts, the women drive and the men dont

Including Rav Neuman..Are you a bigger talmud Chacham than Rav Neuman?

“(or in Eretz Yisroel, Meah Shearim”

“Meah Shearim has no status of an “Ir”, nor has Jerusalem according to many poskim especially nowadays.

Joseph and others:

Please refer to the below link for the psak of Rav Dovid of Karlin ZTL (Os Gimel), that the inhabitants of Yerushlayim can not force their customs on other people that move there after any tekanah.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1581&st=&pgnum=48

Gaon: Rav Eliyashiv poskened that if an American Ashkenaz who wraps tefillin on Chol Hamoed moves to Jerusalem, he must stop doing so. So, I don’t this it’s as pashut as saying Jerusalem has no sway on minhag hamakom.

Gaon, Rav Vozner never changed his position. He maintained it was assur until his recent petira. Please read it inside. I believe I put a translation of his teshuva in an older thread here about women driving.

” Rav Vozner never changed his position”

Torah does not work like that, if whatever he based it upon has to do with mere facts – if they change – the Halcha changes. He might have just had such of a custom/chasiddus etc. or thought its not preferable etc. but to say so ‘LeHalacha’ and leDoros you need have proof, especially that other respectable poskim and kehilos permitted…

Gaon, the basis for his ruling didn’t change subsequent to his Psak.

Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner: Shevet HaLevi 4:1.2 and Shevet HaLevi 7:11.

HaRav Yitzchak Zilberstein issued the same Psak, less than two years ago, against women driving. He quotes the kuntres Rachmei HaRav from HaGaon HaRav Shmuel Halevy Wosner ZT”L, in which Rav Wosner writes women should not get a drivers license. He explains that while this is somewhat commonplace today, it is not advised for the actual process of obtaining the license results in compromising her modesty as does actual driving of a vehicle by a woman for this exposes her to sites in the streets and marketplace.

“וליבי אומר לי שהוא אחד הגורמים של האסונות הגדולים שנעשים בדרכים בארץ ישראל המפילים כל כך חללים והרגו כבר טובים וצדיקים וזה מצורף לכל העבירות הנעשים בדרכים שמולידים המחבלים שמסכנים הדרכים”.

Important clarification : to the best of my knowledge, the Rebbe’s response regarding women driving only applied to women who had moved to a community where women didn’t drive, not merely visiting.

I remember hearing this together with another story that one woman drove anyway I guess because she figured it can’t be that bad if our Rabbanim pasken that its fine. End of story : unfortunately she was involved in a bad car accident r”l.

The Rabbanim who don’t allow women driving base it on the fact that a woman isn’t meant to be “out there” in the world like a man. I don’t know more as it isn’t our shita in lubavitch but that’s what I recall hearing.

GH,

If he were more forthcoming, Joseph would actually tell you that “Kol Kevudah” means that women should never be outside their homes at all and shouldn’t even be walking on the sidewalk.

Phil: Why are you angry at me at what Chazal, the Rambam and the Mechaber pasken is Halacha? All I offered to you before your outburst were maare mekomos.

Joseph,

I see you’re off trolling again about Zionism and trying to weasel out of answering some very simple questions. You quoted the sources and therefore shouldn’t be afraid to answer the following:

1) Do you only let your wife out of the house twice a month?
2) How many times have you hit her to make her do what’s right?
3) Do you support your children past the age of six?

Avoiding these questions only confirms what everyone already suspects, that you’re nothing more than a sick troll, an constant eyesore (your word) on this site.

Rav Binyamin [Yehoshua] Zilber, however, argues at length that women driving entails no violation whatsoever of the norms of modesty:

“on the contrary, she locks herself up in a box called ‘automobile’, and we thus avoid [the problems of] walking behind a woman and passing between women, and of gazing”
In the same vein, he rejects as nonsensical the claim that women driving will increase the frequency of their appearance in public:

“I do not know what he is talking about – we see that the street is brimming full of women, virtually ninety percent [of people in the street] are women, and by traveling in cars [this percentage] is not increased, but just the opposite, since something that takes her about half an hour to do by foot she can do by car in a few minutes.”
הנני בזה לפני כ”ג בדבר מה שנתפרסם על ידי מעוררים בשער בת רבים ובחוצות עיר לאסור שנשים ינהגו במכוניות פרטיות שלהם. ובאתי בזה כדן בקרקע לפני כת”ר. ולא זכיתי להבין, אם אכן נכונים טענותיהם, כי יש אפשריות שנשים ילמדו חכמת הנהיגה אצל נשים מלמדות, באופן שאין שייך מכשול ופריצת גדר, ובפרט שידוע לי מכמה ראשי ישיבות מובהקים ומפורסמים שליט”א בחו”ל שנשותיהם נוהגות ברכבם ואדרבה מסייעות בזה לבעליהם גדולי תורה שלא יצטרכו הם ליטרד ולבזבז מזמנם היקר בהרבצת תורה, וגם מסירות מעליהם טרדות הבית שאין התלמיד חכם צריך לבטל מלימודו ללמוד חכמת הנהיגה או ליטלטל ממקום למקום. וכך מקובל בחו”ל אצל הרה בני תורה מהיראים והחרדים לדבר ד’ זו הלכה הלומדים בכוללים שם שנשותיהם עושות כל צרכי הבית ופרנסתם כדי שיוכלו ללמוד ללא ביטולים ומפריעים, ולומדות חכמת הנהיגה וכל זה על מנת להסיר הרבה טרדות וביטול תורה מבעליהם, שאילו הם היו נוהגים את רכבם היו צריכים לבטל מלימודים פעמים רבות לטרדות הבית והפרנסה, ובפרט שגם שמעתי שא’ מגדולי הדור שליט”א נשאל מאברך תלמיד חכם וירא שמים שלומד, אם עדיף שילמד נהיגה כדי שאשתו לא תנהג בעצמה ברכב – לצורך פרנסה – והורה שעדיף שתלמד אשתו נהיגה [באופן שמסודר דרכי הצניעות אצל נשים וכדומה] ולא ילמד הבעל כי על ידי זה יהיה מוטרד בטרדות מטרדות הבית והפרנסה ולא יוכל לעסוק בתורה כדבעי. אולם היות וראיתי שיצאו בחוצות עיר נגד דבר זה, וכמו כן שמעתי בשם תלמיד חכם מפורסם שליט”א שאין דעתו נוחה מכל זה, ולא ידעתי כיצד יש לעשות למעשה, אם עצם לימוד הנהיגה נעשה באופן שאין חשש פריצות וכיוצא בזה, ושתסיע את משפחתה ושאר צרכי הבית ופרנסתה כדי שיוכל בעלה לעסוק בתורה על מי מנוחות. ואודה למע”כ אם יודיע לי דעתו

Joseph,

Why are you so afraid to answer questions about the very sources you quoted? Is it because you only cited them to criticize other Jews but don’t actually follow them yourself? You do know that such reprehensible behavior is the textbook definition of a filthy troll, correct? Is that how you want to be known?

I still find it shocking that Joseph considers women an eyesore. That’s not normal or healthy.

Joseph,

I saw the Teshuva and there is no mention of anything to do with הלכה, Rav Wosner agrees you can NOT prohibit it in terms of any Halachik basis and, there is no proof or any source saying driving is any different than just walking on the street. (He agrees you can not bring proof from the times of the Talmud)

The rest as they will say, אין זה אלא דברי נביאות. And is not something that binds anyone to have to be machmir.

Yes, if the custom would have been that women limit their appearances on the street etc then it has a pshat. But as it is, walk down any street in Bnei Brak and it is full. Same with all other cities mentioned.

Hence, the concept of תקנה ומנהג has no effect there. As it all depends in the circumstances.

As far as Hilchos Minhogim is concerned nowadays, it has no effect of anything that falls into any category of either Minhag based on Halacha or סייג. it seems to be just a Chasidish based custom.

You have no other source than just the mere saying “that Rav Wosner says so”.

Rav Zilber and others have a very strong case why yes. They say rather they should not travel on buses along other men, or having to take taxis with men drivers. The fact is, women are much more active today, most women work and need to travel to get there.

Gaon,

Rav Vozner is not Chasidish. Everything you just said doesn’t dispute the fact that it is minimally the “minhag” hamakom.

Are you really trying to claim that if a Kiryas Yoel woman or a New Square woman or a woman from one of the many Chareidi (including most non-Chasidish Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel) communities where women do not drive, wants to drive then she can disregard the community and simply drive at will?

Joseph,

More fake halacha and still trying to weasel out of answering some very simple questions. You quoted the sources and therefore shouldn’t be afraid to answer the following:

1) Do you only let your wife out of the house twice a month?
2) How many times have you hit her to make her do what’s right?
3) Do you support your children past the age of six?

Avoiding these questions only confirms what everyone already suspects, that you’re nothing more than a sick troll, an constant eyesore (your word) on this site.