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I once read a fascinating statement from the Iben Ezrs. He states that most wealth is amassed through stealing. I believe I have it right. It’s a mind blowing statement that most (but not all) of wealthy people became wealthy through acts of sin.
Its so true. If you ever were able to dig deep into how some guy became wealthy, usually (again, not always) you can find some “shtick” thats not according to halacha. And remember, a goy who steals is assur too.
Does anyone know where this statement is? I can not remember. It’s an atom bomb.
in before pba comes in and turns the tables on you with his rand shtick.
btw I hope this is nowhere because it’s false. a dud, if you will.
#1, I assume you are not wealthy
Sorry jewishn; unless you can tell us exactly where we can see that the Ibn Ezra said what you think he said, this thread is going nowhere.
Brony
“btw I hope this is nowhere because it’s false. a dud, if you will.”
Why would you say that if you dont know if the Ibn Ezra said it or not? Or is your opinion more valid than the Heilige Rishon Rabeinu Avraham Ibn Ezra’s?
in before pba comes in and turns the tables on you with his rand shtick.
lol wut
I’m not aware that Rand would have an opinion on this.
Tell that to Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi.
“Why would you say that if you dont know if the Ibn Ezra said it or not?”
you answered your own question nicely.
Or is your opinion more valid than the Heilige Rishon Rabeinu Avraham Ibn Ezra’s?
Let’s first establish that this is indeed the opinion of the Heilige Rishon Rabeinu Avraham Ibn Ezra. Then we’ll talk.
What about the famous Rabbeinu Peretz that you are Mechuyav to stand on your head before saying Mode Ani? Who are you to even think otherwise, when I invoked a Rishon!? A Rishon!
WIY, if something sounds stupid, a Rishon didn’t say it.
I don’t know about that, but there IS a mind-blowing Ibn Ezra which hints at the idea that some of the pesukim in the Torah were NOT written by Moshe Rabbeinu, or even Yehoshua.
Yussel:
how dare you say that the Iben Ezra hints to kfirah! terrible thing to say.
You write “hints”. Why do you not be dan lkaf zchus that you are picking up the wrong “hint”?
And, if he does say so (chalila) why not let us know where so we can show you how you are making a huge mistake
Jewishness, most wealth accumulated through stealing is not the same thing as most wealthy people becoming so through stealing.
Jewishness, most wealth accumulated through stealing is not the same thing as most wealthy people becoming so through stealing.
JEWISHNESS: Perhaps you need to read the Iggeress HaRamban, which states that we should not think negatively about the rich, but should realize that Hashem entrusted them with such wealth for reasons known only to Hashem. I have no idea where the Ibn Ezra says what you say he says, but I have a hard time believing that such a statement would have come from any Talmid Chacham or from any Yireh Shomayim
Jewishness,
How do know it to be true? Perhaps Ibn Ezra was referring to a specific time and place.
Son of Man:
I don’t have a chumash with me now, but it’s at the beginning of Sefer Devarim. I think it’s where the Torah says “Me’ever HaYarden”, but I’m not certain. Ibn Ezra refers to the “Sod Ha Yud Bes”, the secret of the 12. The 12 is a reference to 12 Pesukim in the Torah which, according to Ibn Ezra, were not written by Moshe Rabbenu.
Son of Man;
It’s Devarim 1:2.
HaLeiVi
“WIY, if something sounds stupid, a Rishon didn’t say it.”
It seems like he did say it and the Rishonim and gemara say many things that we dont quite grasp.
Most often the case is that the Gemara, or Rishon or Acharon says something that sounds stupid to our farshtuppedteh American brains so we just decide its wrong or crazy or stupid. I will repeat what one of my Rabbeim told me Besheim Rav Wolbe zatzal, “in the time it took a Rishon to dip his quill into ink and put it to paper to write he thought more in learning than any of us will think in our entire lifetimes!”
Do “stealing” and “wickedness” have the same meaning?
Wickedness could be referring to bitul torah. Amassing money beyond your requirements at the expense of learning could be characterized as “wickedness.”
Wickedness could also refer to many things.
The Ibn Ezra didn’t say what you said he did.
The doubters can be characterized as “right.”
Son of Man – look to the sky
Lift your spirit, set it free
Some day you’ll walk tall with pride
Joseph, a man in time you’ll be
@OP
There is what the Ibn Ezra says and there is you application of his words.
The 2 are mutually exclusive.
For starters:
1. What does he mean when he says “most”? 51%?, 70%?, 99%?
2. What is this nature of this “rishus” he is talking about? You seem to imply that it means theft or shtick. Maybe it means missing out on mitzvos because he is too busy accumulating wealth? maybe it means his bein adam l’chaveiro is lacking cause he is too focused on his money?
3. Is he focusing on the wealthy yidden or goyim as well? (yes, I know goyim cant steal, but this would help us with question 1, namely the percentages)
Son of Man: The Ibn Ezra is famous for saying this. He clearly didn’t hold it was K’firah.
Ibn Ezra said a lot of things that the typical, yeshivish guy would find objectionable. Aside from his belief in Post-Mosaic authorship of the last 8 verses in Devarim (R’ Yehuda ben Ilai was also of this view; see Bava Basra 15a and Menachos 30a), he was also opposed to piyutim and yotzerot (as am I, and many Sephardim). The kabbalistic Yam Shel Shlomo, who was opposed to codification and concrete reality, condemns Ibn Ezra in his haqdama to Bava Kamma, as did R’ Ezra of Gerona. Ibn Ezra was a rational, logical tour de force, and I consider him one of our greatest minds, along with Rambam, Rasag, and others of like mind.
reb d, please EXPLAIN your hero’s (purported) enigmatic and puzzling statement.
so the Iben Ezra holds that the last few psukim were not written by Moshe. If in fact he means that, there are opinions that yehoshua wrote it after Moshe died. We know that already from Tanaim
Son of Man:
It’s NOT just the last 8 pesukim. It’s other pesukim in other sefarim of Chumash that Ibn Ezra casts doubt on regarding who wrote them. THAT is the mind-blowing part.
Fine, I’ll be nicer this time.
RD: I strongly protest your insinuation that you (or anyone) has a right to decide who “our greatest thinkers” are. And certainly, since your view is based solely on the fact that you often agree with him, it is nothing short of arrogance and idiocy to say such a thing.
Yussel: Sam2:
Instead of accusing the Iben Ezra of saying such a thing without bringing down sources, why not quote chapter and verse so I could look it up and see if it is so? You can not make such a statement without backing it up!!
Did you have a chance to find a chumish yet?
Yusel says:
“Sod Ha Yud Bes”, the secret of the 12. The 12 is a reference to 12 Pesukim in the Torah which, according to Ibn Ezra, were not written by Moshe Rabbenu.
Not sure if I should laugh or cry. YOU decide what his enigmatic hint is referring to? How do you know that this is a reference to that? Maybe it is a secret about a totally different issue?
Besides it’s not there.
Are you disputing that the Ibn Ezra was a great rishon? He definitely was one of our greatest thinkers, and his greatness is evident in his voluminous writings. I think many people I disagree with are great. R’ Yoel Teitlebaum, zt”l, had many views I don’t agree with, but I’d still say he was one of the great posqim and Jewish leaders of the 20th century. Likewise, the Yam Shel Shlomo was one of our great minds, even though I reject much of his approach.
Maybe it’s in the “Iben Ezra says” 😀
Ibn Ezra said a lot of things that the typical, yeshivish guy would find objectionable.
RD, name 3 or 4 things “that the typical, yeshivish guy would find objectionable” that the Ibn ezra said. Besides what was already mentioned here. With citations. I look forward to your learned answer.
Son of Man:
The reference IS there, on Devarim 1:2.
Perhaps, if you allow yourself to examine this issue without your prejudices, you might come to a greater level of understanding. Don’t allow yourself to be boxed in by what somebody told you to believe.
Yussel:
YOU decide that the Iben Ezra holds of an idea that Moshe did not write certain verses when all you can muster is some veiled hint written in code. To use your own words, “Perhaps, if you allow yourself to examine this issue without your prejudices, you might come to a greater level of understanding”
Without prejudices please explain how you can know what he is hinting at. Since it is a hint, it is by definition not clear. Maybe he hints at some other idea? Until proven, the given is that he does NOT hold of such an outlandish belief. A hint is no proof. Is that not the unprejudiced honest way to approach this? Yes it is.
If he did hold of it, he would be the first to say it out right. He was not one to hide. Things written in code usually refer to kabalistic things which the Iben Ezra was very knowledgeable in.
I do not believe you are being honest to yourself. You want to believe in this for some reason and all you can bring as a proof is something written in sod/code. Very unimpressed. I still maintain, chas vishalom that he would hold of such a thing. Bring me a real proof!!!!
WIY
You wrote:
“I will repeat what one of my Rabbeim told me Besheim Rav Wolbe zatzal, “in the time it took a Rishon to dip his quill into ink and put it to paper to write he thought more in learning than any of us will think in our entire lifetimes!”
How did he know? Was there a measurement done? Again this is not to be disrespectful, but borne out of frustration, i grew up hearing these things and it always made me like like no matter what i do i will never be able to attain the heights of those who came before us. It causes one to think why even bother, so for that sake i must ask , how did he know? is there a unit of measurement? do any of the people who live today been alive for the past 3000 years and can confirm that this comment is true? And again, what unit of measurement was used to determine how much Torah passed in his mind while he took the quill and dipped it into his ink? Also, who did he test it against in our generation or future generations?
mz: The Ibn Ezra has numerous places where he straight-up said Chazal were wrong in interpreting P’sukim, for starters.
Son of Man:
Read Ibn Ezra. He quotes a bunch of pesukim, all of which appear to be written from a perspective LONG AFTER the events they describe. That includes the speech of Moshe Rabbenu.
Yussel:
Ok. So you THINK based on the verses he quotes that he means what you think he means. How can you state as fact that he hints to this idea? Which of those psukim are problematic asserting that Moshe said them? Even if the events did not occur yet (please explain which ones those are) have you ever heard of nevuah?
The last place you can prove anything is from Sod. Sod by definition is vague so there is a lot of purposeful grey area. It could very well be kabalistic. There are plenty of aggadita gemoras and midroshim (without even a preface that they are hinting at something) that if you would understand literally and not think into the deeper meaning you would be way off, kal vchomer where he states that it is sod.
Once your at it, the torah states visachas raglav! Under Hashem’s feet. Does that mean Hashem has feet? You would say YES. Obviously that would make you into a heretic. It is meant in a borrowed sense to describe an abstract idea. Do not jump to conclusions in deep areas. If it leads you to the wrong conclusions the consequences are very very dangerous. (Like loosing your share in the Afterlife)
Son of man: You do know that there are Rishonim who read that Passuk and said exactly that. Several Rishonim, not hailing from the Spanish/Sephardic tradition, felt that G-d has some sort of semblance of a physical corporeality because that’s how they read the Pesukim.
Sam2: Mind pointing me in the direction of the rishonim who say that/where they say that?
Rosh Cham- there is a big inyan that we get more credit for keeping Torah and mitzvot in this generation than our ancestors who lived in places and times that were more morally conducive… We are tested with much more…
Sam2 there is a disagreement between the Rambam and Ravaad if believing in corporeality makes one into a heretic. The Rambam says yes. The Ravaad says no, however even according to him that does not mean that such a person is not going to Gehenom for such a belief. Read the various commentators. The Ravaad says that there were great people who made such MISTAKES based on verses and midrashim that cause mistaken ideas when taken literally. (In other words, they are not understood correctly.)
You make is sound like there is some valid opinions about this out there. GOD FORBID. First off, the greatest philosophers, jewish and gentile, agreed that the first cause is in NO way physical. And besides, the Rambam codified the 13 cardinal beliefs (codified, not made them up) and the majority of the greatest men in all later generations accepted it as did the masses of Jews the world over. One of the beliefs is that Hashem is not corporeal. So I would advise you to be careful what you write.
“Rambam codified the 13 cardinal beliefs (codified, not made them up)”
Not exactly true. The 13 ikkarim are in his Mishnah commentary, not his halachic codification (the Mishnah Torah). And not all the 13 ikkarim were accepted; even today we say prayers to angels in direct opposition to the 5th ikkar.
Son of man: Chas V’shalom. The Ra’avad held that corporeality made one an Apikores. His argument was no on corporeality per se. He argued on the Rambam’s comment that one who is mistakenly an Apikores still has no Chelek in Olam Haba.
That aside, there will still Rishonim who held of corporeality. We don’t hold like them. Holding like them would be Apikorsus. But there were Rishonim who held of it (to some extent).
Rambam codified them in Mishnah. He codifies in other places aside from Mishnah Torah. Codify means to “Arrange (laws or rules) into a systematic code”.
Where do we say prayers to angels? Examples would help.
We sing Shalom Aleichem. However, all we are doing is blessing the angels, asking for blessings from the angels and giving them farewell. Is getting a blessing from a great person in violation of the 5th ikkar? No. Especially since the blessing is really a prayer to G-d for that person, openly stated or implied. Why is it different with angels? We are asking them to bless us, no prayers to them.
Machnesai rachamim. (Some do not say it) Those who do, once again, are not praying to angels. The Rambam does not say you can not SPEAK to them or REQUEST something. He says not to to PRAY. We ask them to bring our prayers in front of God since Hashem created a process in how prayers ascend to him (yaleh, vyavo, vyageya…). If anything it perhaps AFFIRMS the Rambam’s position.
Do you have any other cases?
“you THINK based on the verses he quotes that he means what you think he means”
It is very clear that Ibn Ezra to Devarim 1:2 means that there were some post-Mosaic changes to the text of the Chumash. It is also clear that Chazal thought the same thing (see Kiddushin 30a). Rashi and the authors of Midrash Rabbah clearly had a sefer Torah with variant spellings, see for example Rashi to Bereshit 25:6 and Bereshit Rabbah 61:4.
I’m not sure why Artscroll claims that it is a unanimous opinion that there have been no changes to the Torah since the time of Moshe Rabbeinu; that clearly is not true.
Son of Man: The Rambam does say that requesting something of angels is Apikorsus as it is attributing a solely Divine purpose to any being other than Hakadosh Baruch Hu.
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