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“Why bring up this discussion by Zionist Rabbis, as if serving in the IDF is worth even discussing?”
This thread began as a discussion about army service and became diverted when people started arguing whether working or kollel (or both) is a Jewish ideal. This Rambam was brought up and people have also used this Rambam as a source for army exemption. Anyway, as I said, I was not discussing serving in the army; I was discussing using this Rambam as a source for army exemption. And correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that R’ Isser Zalman Meltzer was a Zionist Rabbi, and as for R’ Aharon Lichtenstein, if you want to discredit his opinion, it would be more helpful if you addressed his arguments than simply calling him a Zionist Rabbi.
Quote: “And correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that R’ Isser Zalman Meltzer was a Zionist Rabbi…”
But Rav Avraham Kook zt”l was considered a zionist (at least by the D”L) and he held that those in Yeshivas are Patur from army service and uses the Rambam that you don’t want to recognize. (If you don’t believe me look it up)
As far as R’ Aharon Lichtenstein, he is a very nice man, but his arguments are based on feelings, not logic. It is not in his place to decide who is L’shem Shemayim and who is not. Can you go into any Yeshivah and honestly point out who is l’shem Shimayim and who is not? Who gave anyone the right to put a limit on this din? The Rambam didn’t, so how can he say maybe 5%, 10%, etc. It’s a case by case situation.
Furthermore, the answer is simple. The Rambam says
?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? “??? ???? ????” ????
this implies that he decides for himself (not others).
How does he know that he is not fooling himself.
The Rambam continues
If he sees that Hashem is providing his needs then he can assume that he is L’shem Shamiyim. I’ve meet some many Bnei Yeshivas that can’t explain how they get by, just that every time they need to pay a bill or purchase something, etc. the money just comes (and not from the government).
If Hashem is not behind them than why is he constantly doing miracles for them?
In truth, it appears to me, that the really reason(s) of not doing army service is much deeper than this discussion on the Rambam.
One thing is for sure, ALL the Gedolim of today are against the Bnei Yeshivas going into the Army. Rav Drukman, R. Aviner, Rav Stav, and R. Lichtenstein may all be fine Talmidi Chachamim, but they are no where near being Gedolim. Anyone who believes so certainly has never had a relationship with a Gadol.
We are required to follow the Gedolim.
???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??????
PAA: you quoted Rabbis Aviner and Lichtenstein, both of whom are Zionist, but Softwords has answered much better than I did here.
Softwords, why did almost all frum Jews in Europe work? Why nobody was bringing up that Rambam? Why did the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim, 156) paskened that (at least min ha’stam) a Jew must work?
“But Rav Avraham Kook zt”l was considered a zionist (at least by the D”L) and he held that those in Yeshivas are Patur from army service and uses the Rambam that you don’t want to recognize. (If you don’t believe me look it up)”
By all means, if you provide a source.
“As far as R’ Aharon Lichtenstein, he is a very nice man, but his arguments are based on feelings, not logic. It is not in his place to decide who is L’shem Shemayim and who is not. Can you go into any Yeshivah and honestly point out who is l’shem Shimayim and who is not? Who gave anyone the right to put a limit on this din? The Rambam didn’t, so how can he say maybe 5%, 10%, etc. It’s a case by case situation.”
What about his argument is not logic? And there is a difference between saying someone is not lesheim shamayim and saying that they are not “sanctum sanctorum, in the Rambam’s terms”. It would not be such a big chiddush that there are not 66,000 people on this level.
“Furthermore, the answer is simple. The Rambam says
?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? “??? ???? ????” ????
this implies that he decides for himself (not others).”
The Rambam says that anyone can be inspired to reach the level of ??? ?????. How does that indicate that anyone who decides that he is going to go for it is automatically it?
“If he sees that Hashem is providing his needs then he can assume that he is L’shem Shamiyim. I’ve meet some many Bnei Yeshivas that can’t explain how they get by, just that every time they need to pay a bill or purchase something, etc. the money just comes (and not from the government).
If Hashem is not behind them than why is he constantly doing miracles for them?”
This phenomenon is not limited to benei yeshivos.
“In truth, it appears to me, that the really reason(s) of not doing army service is much deeper than this discussion on the Rambam.”
As I already said twice, I am not here to discuss whether one should go to the army; I am here to discuss a statement of the Rambam.
“One thing is for sure, ALL the Gedolim of today are against the Bnei Yeshivas going into the Army. Rav Drukman, R. Aviner, Rav Stav, and R. Lichtenstein may all be fine Talmidi Chachamim, but they are no where near being Gedolim. Anyone who believes so certainly has never had a relationship with a Gadol.”
What is the definition of “gadol”?
“We are required to follow the Gedolim.”
This is an entire discussion in its own right and for some reason every time it is attempted to be discussed in the coffee room, it gets closed down.
“PAA: you quoted Rabbis Aviner and Lichtenstein, both of whom are Zionist”
You are missing the point. I did not quote R’ Aviner for his own opinion. I only quoted him as saying what R’ Isser Zalman Meltzer had said. So unless you are saying that being a Zionist Rabbi removes his credibility…
Also, although when discussing Shevet Levi, the Rambam specifically mentions that they get a military exemption, when he discusses those who can make themselves like Shevet Levi he doesn’t mention a military exemption. All he says is
??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????
Chas V’shalom. This is insane. Mods, we let stupid coffee room posters determine who is a Gadol and who isn’t? And based on what? Said Rav’s Psak on a certain issue? It is well-accepted by many in the Chareidi world that no one has a greater Iyun in all of Rishonim than R’ Aharon Lichtenstein. This is, frankly, obscene. To denigrate (and yes, Mr. Joe Shmoe from the internet trying to tell R’ Aharon who he is M’shubad to is a gross insult) one of the leading Torah scholars of our generation is disgusting. Say you disagree. Say you have your own Gedolim. But don’t try to belittle someone who’s pinky toe you’ll never even dream of reaching.
mdd – based on your logic, why did all of the Dor Da’ah NOT work? Clearly we can not base our present situation on the hanhagas of previous Doros, but rather we need to turn to the Gedolim of our Generation for guidance.
Patur Aval Assur – I’m not sure why you felt it necessary to answer each point in a separate post. You could have put them all in one post.
That said, he is my reply.
“By all means, if you provide a source.”
Like I said, (If you don’t believe me look it up) yourself.
“What about his argument is not logic? And…”
In both cases (his argument and yours about 66,000) it is based on feelings, not solid proofs.
“This phenomenon is not limited to benei yeshivos.”
Yes, but keep in mind that he has this phenomenon w/o working. When an Avreich is not having such siyata dishmiya he is advised to go out to work.
“What is the definition of “gadol”?”
Good question. I’d like to hear what your definition is.
“Also, although when discussing Shevet Levi, the Rambam…”
Yes, you have a legitimate argument, but it can also be leart that it is going on the whole previous Rambam. That is why there is a machlokes haposkim on this.
Eilu V’Eilu Divrei Elokim Chaim! (I assume you believe in this concept as well.)
Sam2 – Quote, “This is insane…”
Perhaps we have different understanding in what constitutes a Gadol. Based on our understanding of what is a Gadol, there is no insult what so every in stating that Rav Drukman, R. Aviner, Rav Stav, and R. Lichtenstein are not Gadolim. Based on our understanding, neither are Rav Uri Zohar, Rav Amnon Yitzhak, Rav Meir Shapiro, Rav Yitzhak Yosef, Rav Lau, Rav Metzker, Rav Grossman, and Rav Jonathan Sacks. All of these mentioned are highly respected Rabbanim and Poskim. That fact that they are (not yet) Gedolim does not detract from their greatness. It is rather just merely stating the reality.
It could be based on your definition of “Gadol” all these Rabbanim quoted above also constitute a “Gadol”.
“It is well-accepted by many in the Chareidi world that no one has a greater Iyun in all of Rishonim than R’ Aharon Lichtenstein.”
With all do respect, as much as I find R’ Aharon Lichtenstein to be a warm and caring person (and yes, I know him) I have never ever in the last 30 years heard anyone make the claim that you have made. Can you quote someone who has written or said so? (I just spent about a half hour on line trying to find some words of praise about him from the Chareidi world and found nothing. Not trying to discredit him, G-d Forbid, just trying to see if you know something that I don’t.)
I have heard that from R’ Metzger, R’ Yonah Amar, and a Rabbi whose name I blank on, but he gives inspirational Kabbalah-type Shiurim all over Israel. I can never remember his name. It’s like R’ Ari Cohen or something. Also, a group of Avreichim in Beitar once said something similar when asking me to try and get them copies of his Seforim with different covers.
Many in the Dati Leumi movement hold that learning in yeshiva is at least as important in the army, and in fact, many in the Dati Leumi movement do not support the aggressive policies towards the goyim that have characterized that movement over the last generation. However Israel is a democracy, and the Dati Leumi voters support those who feel that army services is a great mitzvah and one that requires giving up limud Torah, and also support a policy that reflects the view that subjuating the Arabs is a mitsvah. And these are the people who want to close down the non-zionist yeshivos and conscript their talmidim (and incarcerate those who refuse and the rabbanim who support refusal). If the less fanatical Dati Leumi want to speak up, they can remove Mr. Bennett as their leader, or deprive his party of support in the next election. Since (unlike some hareidim) all Dati Leumi support the Medinah and take part in elections, how they vote is a good reflection of how they feel as a group.
Sam2 – the Avreichim in Beitar means nothing to me. As far as Rav Metzger and Rav Amar, can you back up your claim? I checked on line and found nothing in correlation of them to Rav Lichtenstein, shlita. After viewing a link about “Rabbi Dr. Aharon Licthenstein to receive Israel Prize” I’m surprised that such a strong praise that you claim was not mentioned. Sorry, but at this point I have to leave it as hearsay.
Softwords, in the midbar they had the mon coming down! It was different ever since! And we are not talking about a hanhogah. Rambam and Shulchan Aruch is Halochah.
mdd – I hear what you’re saying. However, I’m sure you’ll agree that the Poskie HaDor know those sources better than you and non-the-less, they still hold of Kollel and not to go into the Army. Even Hesder Yeshivas have Kollel.
No one has ever thought that Kollel was a bad thing. There were always people who would spend their lives learning and teaching. The Taana is against mass Kollel.
There are more people in Kollel today than there were in Pre-War Europe. There was no Messorah for everyone to be in Kollel never to work in Pre-War Europe
Sam2 – “The Taana is against mass Kollel.”
This is a point of contention between Rabbanim and each Rav is entitled to run his Yeshiva accordingly. No one has the right to enforce their psak onto others especially when the majority of the Gedolim of this Dor hold very strongly for “mass Kollel”. I heard with my own ears a Gadol tell his talmidim, “…I see no heter to go out and work. Anyone that feels differently should see me privately.” You may disagree with that Gadol. You may follow another Gadol instead. You may not enforce your opinion on to his talmidim and tell them that they are not to remain in kollel unless they fulfill “your” conditions.
The main point here is that the D”L community is in cahoots with the chiloni to force their opinions onto the Chareidim and that is out of line. If it were the other way around you’d be incensed, wouldn’t you?
I’m not so sure that there are, percentage-wise of worldwide Jewry, less people in Kollel today than in pre-haskala Europe. There was less non-religious Jews pre-haskala. The non-religious today represent an overwhelming majority of Jewry and when you take them into account along with religious Jewry that are not in Kollel, kollel people are a small percentage of Jewry. So to call the tiny percentage of Jews in kollel as “mass Kollel” is inaccurate.
Besides, who is anyone here to say that whatever the percentage of kollel people are of Jews, that it is “too many” today???
“Patur Aval Assur – I’m not sure why you felt it necessary to answer each point in a separate post. You could have put them all in one post.”
Because when I put it in one long post it takes forever to be moderated (at least that’s what the moderators tell me).
“”By all means, if you provide a source.”
Like I said, (If you don’t believe me look it up) yourself.”
I can’t look it up if you don’t provide me a source where I can look it up.
“In both cases (his argument and yours about 66,000) it is based on feelings, not solid proofs.”
Not every argument is automatically either emotional or a solid proof. There is something in between – a logical argument which may not be a case closing proof. It is very LOGICAL that many of the people under discussion do not fall into the Rambam’s category.
“Good question. I’d like to hear what your definition is.”
I would altogether avoid the term “gadol” with all the confusion that comes along with it and instead I would talk about “tremendous talmidei chachamim”. While there may be no exact definition of this, someone who is holding in shas and poskim would clearly qualify. Once we have established that, I would add that I don’t think that anyone or any group of scholars has a monopoly on Torah – even if we were to somehow rate the top ten torah scholars, that wouldn’t preclude the next ten torah scholars from having an opinion.
“Yes, you have a legitimate argument, but it can also be leart that it is going on the whole previous Rambam. That is why there is a machlokes haposkim on this.”
The Rambam says
??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????…
According to you he should’ve then simply just said ??? ?? ???? ???
why then does he specify
??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????
while leaving everything else out?
“Eilu V’Eilu Divrei Elokim Chaim!”
Does this mean that you agree that there is a legitimate shita that Jews should go to the army?
“(I assume you believe in this concept as well.)”
It depends what you mean by it. If you mean that both sides in any machlokes are gospel truth then no. If you mean that both sides are entitled to interpret the Torah as they see fit then yes, but this means that if a position is shown to not fit with the primary sources then it is a flawed position.
And my original point has not been addressed. The only source that I have seen so far that mentions the Rambam in hilchos shemita v’yovel(before nowadays) (feel free to correct me and provide such sources) is the Biur Halacha in siman 156 where he specifically applies it to yechidim. (Incidentally, would you say that the Biur Halacha is using an emotional argument?)
And that is also only in regards to learning without working, but not about a military exemption – my objection from the lashon wouldn’t apply to the former beacuse the Rambam does say ???? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ??.
Softwords, if the D’L and the chilonim are paying for it, they certainly may have a say. To say otherwise is outrageous and chillul HaShem.
PAA – “Because when I put it in one long post it takes forever to be moderated (at least that’s what the moderators tell me).”
Thanks for the heads up. I did not know that.
quote, “I can’t look it up if you don’t provide me a source where I can look it up.”
I posted the source in another feed or Article on this website. Search for it.
quote, “There is something in between – a logical argument which may not be a case closing proof.”
Granted. But that implies that there is room for argument. In this case, my point was that a statement based on opinion instead of solid proof, although not necessarily discredited, is not strong enough to uproot other opinions.
PAA – quote, “I would altogether avoid the term “gadol” with all the confusion that comes along with it and instead I would talk about “tremendous talmidei chachamim”. While there may be no exact definition of this, someone who is holding in shas and poskim would clearly qualify.”
Thank you very much for your explanation. If your definition is except by and large by the D”L community, then you have brought a lot of enlightenment to the room.
I will not attempt to be the one to give a definitive definition of a “Gadol” for the Chareidi community, but this much I will say. When a Chareidi Jew uses the term “Gadol” he means something FAR beyond just a “tremendous talmidei chachamim”. What you are defining, we call a “Chacham”. With that definition there is room to include ALL the above mentioned Rabbanim.
However, when we use the term “Gadol” we are using it in reference to someone that is an “Ish Kodesh” who receives Divine inspiration and sees things that are beyond the scope of pure human logic alone. For instance, Hashem provided for Mordechai HaYehudi information about what was going on that Mordechai could not have possibly known on his own.
When I once inquired about HaRav Shach, z”l, the Gadol that I spoke to brought down in the name of the Brisker Rav that “HaRav Shach is able to see things in the same way that we are able to see things in a lightning storm”. I took that to mean that just like when there is a bolt of lightning at night, all of a sudden it lights up the sky and you can see things momentarily, so to Rav Shach was able to see things momentarily and realize the outcome.
To us a Gadol is way beyond just being an incredible Talmid Chacham. I have a Rebbe who is a Baki in Shas and outstanding in Kaballah as well. However, I would not refer to him as “Gadol”. He has reached tremendous heights, but not to the heights of a Gadol!
Now, assuming that all Chareidim would agree to what I have said, can you understand that we don’t mean to desparage your Talmeidi Chachamim. However, we would never put their opinion before the opinion of those “angel like” people that we call “Gadol”; those that we believe have special siyata dishmiya that goes beyond mere logic?
“I posted the source in another feed or Article on this website. Search for it.”
Well I found your source – but I didn’t see the Rambam mentioned at all there.
[mizu]”.
“Granted. But that implies that there is room for argument. In this case, my point was that a statement based on opinion instead of solid proof, although not necessarily discredited, is not strong enough to uproot other opinions.”
It doesn’t have to uproot any opinions. It just makes the Rambam an invalid proof because how can you say that all 66,000 people fall into that category.
Also, note that the Radvaz says
?????? ?????? ?”? ???? ????? ?? ????”? ??? ?????? ?? ????”? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??????
PAA – Quote, “Does this mean that you agree that there is a legitimate shita that Jews should go to the army?(I assume you believe in this concept as well.)”
In my opinion, certainly there is a legitimate opinion to go into the army! There is also a legitimate opinion of “Ain Bishul Achar Ofiah”! That doesn’t mean that I am aloud to follow that shita being that I am not Sefardi. For me, I would be required to bring a Karbon Chatas if I did. However, for my Sefardi friends, there is nothing wrong with putting a Challah directly on the Bleich.
I enjoy eating bagels, cream cheese, and lox. For my Sefardi friends, that’s a big NO NO!
Here too, for the two of us our din is different.
The chareidim are not saying that you can’t send your sons to the army, but rather that we are required NOT to send our sons that are learning full time. We believe that Limud HaTorah full time exempts one from army service.
You are morally obligated to send your sons to the army based on the psakim of your Rabbanim. We, in like, are morally obligated to refrain from the sending our Bnei Torah to the Army base on the psakim of our Rabbanim.
This point should be clear, but unfortunately most D”L have a nagiah that prevents them from excepting this reality.
Just an extra point: Unfortunately, however, due to this new bill that is an attempt to use the army as a vessel of shmad according to the opinions of our Gedolim (who we hold have divine inspiration), the rules of the game have changed for us and now what used to be excepted, is no longer.
mdd – quote, “Softwords, if the D’L and the chilonim are paying for it, they certainly may have a say. To say otherwise is outrageous and chillul HaShem.”
So in that case you will have to agree that if we agree not to take any money from the government then we should be exempt from army services?
PAA – do me a favor. Don’t use rationalist judaism as a source. I don’t trust him for beans. If he told me the sky is blue I wouldn’t believe him.
Quote, “It doesn’t have to uproot any opinions. It just makes the Rambam an invalid proof because how can you say that all 66,000 people fall into that category.”
Your statement is based on how you are interpreting the Rambam’s words. Obviously, others interpret differently and based on their interpretation there is no question. Regardless, if one excepts as fact that the government is using the army now for shmad, the rules have changed.
BTW – I happen to know prominent Hesder Rabbanim that agree that the rules have changed.
Softwords: Pretty much everyone agrees to that. Let’s see what happens if anyone proposes cutting off all financial support to Chareidi Yeshivos. It won’t end well.
And who gets to determine which “Gedolim” are angel-like instead of people? That’s ridiculous. Rabbonim have to be Domeh to a Malach in that they do their utmost to achieve the best a human possibly can. They have to be free from Aveirah (I feel like that’s Rashi’s Lashon).
Sam2 – you ask, “And who gets to determine which “Gedolim” are angel-like instead of people?”
Good question. When I asked this question years ago to my Rabbonim I was told that the Gedolim of the previous Dor seek them out and reveal who the next generations leaders will be.
We see this in Tanach and throughout the generations. For example, I on my lowly level could never have stated about Rav Shach what the Brisker Rav who was on a lofty level stated about him.
Another case in point, a friend of mine years ago asked one of the Gedolim of Bnei Brak if anyone today has Ruach Hakodesh. (I apologize, but I forgot which Gadol he asked.) That Gadol thought for a minute and then answer, “I do not know for sure, but if anyone today has Ruach HaKodesh it is most definitely Reb Chaim!”
You and I could never have made such a statement, but a Gadol who is himself on a lofty level can.
It is sort of like asking “Who is the top specialist in a given medical field?” You and I who have limited knowledge in the medical field (I’m assuming) can’t possibly begin to answer that, but another expert in that field can.
Another case in point. I heard that when the Chafetz Chaim z”l came to the Mir (Poland) all the Talmidim came out to great him except for one. When the Chofetz Chaim entered the Beis Medresh that talmid did not rise for the Gadol HaDor. This was not due to a disrespect, but rather because that talmid was so engrossed in his learning that he simply did not notice what was going on in his surroundings. The Chofetz Chaim commented on the young man that he will be one of the future Gedolim. That young man was Rav Chaim Pinchus Sheinberg, z”l.
Softwords: By no means was I giving the Dati Leumi definition of “gadol”. I was speaking purely for myself. Now you have a point that everyone should follow the psak of their Rabbi/Posek/Gadol. However, even when a psak is given, we have the right to try to understand it, and engage in a Torah debate. If a psak is found to be mistaken then e no longer follow it. Now as I said earlier, I am not discussing whether one should go to kollel or not or whether one should go to the army or not. I am discussing individual sources. I do not see how this Rambam can prove that charedim should go to kollel or that they shouldn’t go to the army. As I already pointed out, the only source that I have seen quote this Rambam is the Biur Halacha who quotes it only in regards to learning (as opposed to in regards to a military exemption) and is specifically talking about yechidim. Now there are two possibilities: 1)There is an answer to my challenge. If this is the case then I would love to hear it. 2)There is no answer to my challenge. If this is the case then we have to see if the psak was based solely on this Rambam. If it was then the psak is a mistake. If not then this whole discussion is irrelevant.
Softwords: It would be nice of all of these things that you are saying have some sort of Makor… anywhere.
Then, I would agree. But it is impossible le’ma’ase as the whole system there functions only because the Israeli government pays for it (a minor detail, indeed!!).
Sam2 – these stories were told to me directly. I do not know if they are brought down in writing. However, the main point is that the Gedolim of the previous Dor reveal who’s the next Dor’s Gedolim. For that, I suggest going to KBY’s website and seeing what Rav Binyomin Beri writes about Rav Shach. (sorry, but I am not allowed to post the link)
Without any insinuations about who is or is not ‘a gadol’, it is abundantly clear that while one cannot be great without being great in Torah, that alone does not serve as a determinant. There are countless examples of great people who were subservient to their Rebbeim, whom they considered to be great, despite a superiority in Torah knowledge and/or learning abilities.
I’m not going so much for the system of appointment by earlier recognized authority. I think, to use the previous analogy to the medical field, that you don’t need to be an expert to determine who the top guys are, just sufficiently knowledgeable. So a general consensus by ‘regular’ Rabbanaim/leaders would establish for me a guidelines as to who’s authority might be overriding.
By the way, “?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????” would include non-Jews.
“There are countless examples of great people who were subservient to their Rebbeim, whom they considered to be great, despite a superiority in Torah knowledge and/or learning abilities.”
I’m not sure if you are trying to say that they were greater then their Rebbeim or that there Rebbeim were greater then them. If the latter, what’s your point? If the former, can you please provide an example of someone who had Torah knowledge superior to his Rebbe and was subservient to this Rebbe?
He is talking about Chassidishe Rebbes.
So which Chassidishe Rebbe had Torah knowledge superior to his Rebbe and was subservient to this Rebbe?
There were Chassideshe Talmidei Chachomim who were subservient to their Rebbes who were not as great in Torah. “Chelkas Yoav”, for example. The Litvishe would not hold of it.
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