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I haven’t seen even once the ta’ana that they don’t eat seudah shlishis! Why is that?!
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“BUT with all the ta’anos, I haven’t seen even once the ta’ana that they don’t eat seudah shlishis! Why is that?!”
It’s come up already. Sorry to disappoint.
RG:
No one suggested that Shabbos Teshuvah drosho was not avoidable. All I stated was that the substitution of Divrei Torah was a bdi’eved, not lechatchilo.
As for the Rav Shulchan Aruch, this is one of many instances in which the minhag Chabad is not consistent with the psak in the RSA.
The Rebbizen paskans tha ” just like it is not suitable to wear weekday clothes on shabbos and yom tov, so too once must not serve weekday foods. Pizza is definitely associated with weekday foods, therefore, it isn’t yom tov’dik”…..
So, by that logic (or lack thereof) it should no be assur to eat cholent on Shabbos and yom tov since there is more cholent consumed by bnai torah at Thursday night cholent fests than on Shabbos and cholent has now become a “weekday food”. Some may recall the brogias several years ago when the Batatz tried to shut down the cholent specials that had grown incredibly popular among bochurim in Meah Shearim after the Thursday night seder. Their concern, however, was not that cholent should only be served on Shabbos but rather that the bochurim would hang around stuffing themselves on chulent until the early hours of eruv Shabbos,, a practice that the roshei yeshivos in the area said “causes disturbances in both ruchniyus and gashmiyus.” Resttaurants that failed to comply were at risk of losing their Badatz hashgacha. The restauants’ argument that the bochurim were simply yearning to enjoy a “taste of Shabbos” early were rejected by the Badatz.
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The origin of not eating fish with milk is definitely NOT a typo. It is an explicit Beis Yosef, and there cannot be any question that he meant what he wrote when he wrote it. The question is what is source could possibly have been, and whether he was right.
Almost all Ashkenazim rely on the Ramo, who says that the Beis Yosef made a mistake, נתחלף לו בשר בחלב; he momentarily confused the danger of fish and meat with fish and milk. Therefore there is no problem.
Sefardim and a few Ashkenazim reject this possibility and say the Beis Yosef must have had a source, and he meant that just as it is dangerous to mix fish with meat it is also dangerous to mix it with milk.
However, since no other source is known, they tend to limit it to the BY’s words and avoid mixing fish only with actual milk, or things close to milk, but not cheese or butter. Thus many of them permit cream cheese and salmon.
Ok folks – NEWS FLASH!
I’m not sure why you have such a low opinion of Chabad that you think it’s newsworthy that some Chabad houses actually keep some halachos. Where’s your Ahavas Yisroel??!!
“It’s not Shabbesdik” is the last resort of someone who has no argument.
No, Rebbetzin, we don’t all know these things intuitively. They are not universal truths, they are your personal preferences and prejudices which other people don’t share. There are more ways to celebrate Shabbos than are dreamed of in your constrained vision. More ways to dress, more ways to eat, and more ways to spend the day. Not everyone has to be the same.
“We once had an adom gadol for a sukkos yom tov meal, we had a bar-b-q going on a low flame, so we served hamburgers, hot dogs and bar-b-q wings. The adom gadol complained that it is not yom tov’dik.”
An adom gadol should have enough common sense not to complain about the food at a meal to which he was invited. And by the way, our minhag for last day of Pesach is to BBQ for the day seuda. We had hot dogs, hamburgers, wings, and kebobs. A nice time was had by all, and nobody complained that the food was not fit for a meal on chag.
The Magen Avraham says that you can boycott fish on shabbos to bring down the price. Also, if he does nor like it, it is not oneg shabbos for him.
Rebitzen….your mindless arrogance to asset that you know “intuitively” all these universal truths regarding what is allowed or prohibited under your warped notion of Halacha could be equated to kefirah. As to someone pushing back on your jabbering here, most have decided not to waste their time, but an occasional intellectual potch may help you focus. YOU do not dictate how other yidden celebrate shabbosim, yom tovim or otherwise interpret Halacha. We have our own LRP who advises us but please do continue to provide your version of SNL for us.
Everyone agrees that Shavuos needs lochem. The shtei halechem was chametz because if not for the yetzer hora, the Torah would have never been given to us but to the malochim. Alao, we can allow because of the Torah some more indulgence as we have a band aid that keeps us protected.
RG:
I speak as an insider. There are a great many Chabad shuls that conduct Shalosh Seudos just as in non-Chabad shuls. There are two items that need to be part of the discussion.
1 – Even in 770, where the Rebbe ZT”L conducted a non-meal farbrengen, his brother-in-law, R’ Shmarya Guraryeh (often referred to as the RaShaG) conducted Shalosh Seudos with a meal. I was told by old timers from Chabad that this was the will of R’ Yosef Yitzchok ZT”L, their father-in-law.
2 – Many Chabad shuls have minyonim that are composed of other Yidden who are not from Chabad, and they cater to the practices of their mispallelim. I have personal experience with this, and I am suggesting that this as not unique to my experience.
This explains your empirical data about Chabad shuls. Note that Chabad does not consider Shalosh Seudos a negative thing.
A lot of chabad shuls serve shaleshudes. A lot do not. The out of town Lubavitcher Yeshiva I attended did not serve any food for shaleshudes. We sang a bit and someone said a vort and when my father found that out he asked me to come back home.
Which is more prestigious? A plate of Chulent or a nice thick juicy steak
I live in a pretty frum area and BBQ’s on the second day of yom tov seem to be pretty common. I dont know what they serve, but it smells good. I personally woulndt do it because of fire issues, but it seems lots of other people do (They might be Sephardim, but I dont know)
RGP: The Minhag Lubavitch is for men not to wash on seudah shlishis. To rehash stuff that has already been said on the CR: the Rema holds you can be yotzei shalosh seudos without bread. The Chabad minhag of avoiding bread seems to have started with the Tzemach Tzedek (according to posters here).
Milhouse:
“The origin of not eating fish with milk is definitely NOT a typo.”
“Almost all Ashkenazim rely on the Ramo, who says that the Beis Yosef made a mistake, נתחלף לו בשר בחלב”
By “typo” people might be referring to the shittah that it’s a mistake/he didn’t really mean it. Clearly that shittah is not “definitely” wrong when all Ashkenazim hold of it.I might just be misunderstanding your point, but where did you get the idea that achronim never hold that something in the S”A is a copier’s mistake?
If there is no yetzer hora, then all the mitzvos, as we know them, will disappear since there will not be any outside resistance and no yetzer tov and everything will be done because we will recognize that they will be the right things to do. This world will turn into olam habo as Adam before his sin. All other answers are related to the yetzer hora.
Be careful with all the chumros not be like a dog who wants to make everything tref in order thar it should get more. The Neviim needed proof from the Torah to establish anything new. The Torah gives us guidelines for chumras:
1. The Chachomin according to the Rambam are ovar on Baal Tosif if they say fowl is assur biblically to eat with milk,
2. If you add to it, you show the Torah is incomplete and thereby you can also take away from it
3. וחי בהם, ולא שימות בהם
4. לא ניתן תורה למלאכי השרת
5. תפסת מרובה לא תפסתRG, did you read carefully what I wrote? I anticipated all your questions.
“The Chachomin according to the Rambam are ovar on Baal Tosif if they say fowl is assur biblically to eat with milk”
What’s the mashal to this thread? If you’re saying that the entire Sphardish oilam is over bal tosef by avoiding fish and milk, then obviously you know you’re wrong.And, don’t let RGP troll you into making a argument you don’t even actually mean. Just because the anti-BBQ thing is silly doesn’t mean such a concept of “non-Shabbosdik” and oneg Shabbos don’t exist.
RG, If I remember that gemora correctly, they only wanted to eliminate the yetzer hora for a’z.
Rg: you started this thread with a series of questions that included:
4. Does anyone serve pizza or is it considered not yom tov’dik?
5. Does anyone use milk to make kiddush for this meal?Where did you indicate you wanted a “light” discussion? Yes we have served and eaten homemade pizza on shavuous day as I consider it on the same level as cheese blintzes, cheese cake, baked ziti, eggplant parmesean, lasagne. I dont serve any of these these at a shabbos seudah becuase i eat fleishigs at the first two seudos not because they are not shabbosdik. And while you proved to me that milk is chamar medina I dont know anyone who makes Kiddush on milk.
RG:
You wrote: “the Torah biblically MANDATES and OBLIGATES on all of us to take on chumras, to REFRAIN from things that are muttar!!”
You are 100% correct. Where you go wrong is that your choice to refrain from something enters it into a category of issur, that someone that makes another choice, and doesn’t adhere to the chumra you have chosen is being “meikil”. That is blasphemous. The Raavad suggests that we leave over some foods on our plates, as a way of refraining from the muttar. It’s an idea, but it would be baal tosef to claim that not doing so is a kulah. This is an instance where we make personal choices of refraining from “MUTTAR”. If I choose to not eat cheese on Fridays (yes, there is such a minhag), that can be mine. You are no less frum if you do eat cheese on Fridays. It never entered my mind to inquire whether someone was as frum as me if they shared the same minhag as me. The idea is not about concocting more mitzvos, but in our exerting control over ourselves so that we do not get swept away by the worldly desires. What we choose is not a matter at all of bein odom lachaveiro, and has zero relationship with the kadeish atzmecho of another human being. If I do not do what you do, how does that make me wimping out on Ratzon Hashem?
RG, there is no help for you. It means don’t be a glutten like a dog. The nazir is a sinner because he refrains from things that are mutar. For everything assur we find something that tastes like it and being mutar. Hashem creating the world to share everything with us עולם חסד יבנה as the midrash on tehilim explains. As in everything the middle way is the best. Chanoch was taken away because he wanted to be a hermit and he behaved like a malach. There is no place for malachim in this world.
RG, as I mentioned before, the tzelem has only extremes, but the magen david has only middle poihts. We don’t believe in cellibacy and do things with a measure.
It says בכל דרכך דעהו know Him through all your ways. See SA O’CH 231. Do things לשם שמים but don’t refrain from doing it.
Look at the Ramban Vayikro (19:2) don’t be נבל ברשות התורה emphasizing avoiding extrremes as I mentioned.
The little I know, I applaud you for articulating so clearly my point.
קדוש עתמך במותר לך does not mean to give something up all together but do it with a measure.
The Chidah says that at the last day Pesach everyone eats gebroks to show that the refraining from it the whole Pesach is only a chumra and not an issur emphasizing that a person is not in anyway better by following it and to unify everyone with one deed.
דהיינו להניח מן ההחיתרים עצמם can mean not to give up completely. You made up your mind already as usual and cannot be convinced otherwise. It will do you some good by reading The little I know’s full post and be respectful to others.
It matters why he is a nazir as Shimon Hatzadik pointed out.
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