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Minhag to eat milchig meal on Shavuos.
To what extent?
1. Is it a full meal (one of the Yom Tov seudos) and if so, which seuda/seudos?
2. Must it specifically include cheese (or is milk enough)?
3, Is one dish of milchig enough or does the entire seuda consist of only milchig?
4. Does anyone serve pizza or is it considered not yom tov’dik?
5. Does anyone use milk to make kiddush for this meal?I am not looking for the most lenient or any lenient opinions!
The RMA SA O’CH 494,2 says to eat milcihig and then fleishig to have two breads, as we should not use the same bread for both, to commemorate the shtei halechem.
Once again minhagim shonim. My family did not and does not split meals. it was either milchigs or fleishigs. However, the RAMAH states 494:3 OICHLIM MAACHAL CHALAV VACHAR KACH MAACHAL BASAR UZTRICHIM LHAVI EMAHEM BEIS LECHEM AHL HASHULCHAN. I once heard from a rav in my community that the minhag in Hungary was that the night meals were milchigs and the day meals fleishigs but I know people of hungarian descent who are not noheig that way.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49627&st=&pgnum=203
NOTICE THE RAMAH SAYS CHALAV not gevina.
I dont know anyone who holds milk to be chamar medina.why would pizza not be “yom tov’dik”? what about baked ziti, lasagne eggplant? my family has enjoyed all of these on shavuous along with blintzes and cheesecake.
We usually had a potato soup, fish and cheese blintzes.
We are machmir and have Dairy for all 4 meals.
reb G. Please define an adom gadol. a noted poseik in Flatbush once was told that an Adom Gadol said ” something and his response was just how tall was he? Which leads me to question what is the “geder” for a “weekday” food. Is it based on time and place? Would sushi be a “weekday” food? My wife bakes salmon fillets every Thursday night for supper? does make it a “weekday” food that can’t be served on shabbos? if so it may fall under the concept of “ein ldavar sof”. My family enjoys mushroom and onion kugel? it that not a shabbos maachol since my family enjoys it? many shuls serve egg salad and tuna fish at seuda shlishis? isnt that “weekday food?
“– We once had an adom gadol for a sukkos yom tov meal, we had a bar-b-q going on a low flame, so we served hamburgers, hot dogs and bar-b-q wings. ”
That never happened
RG, we only wait a 1/2 hour between milk and meat. You can eat something in between fish and meat. You can eat cheese blintzes after the fish maybe not together.
maybe we dont serve pizza on shabbos because we generally eat fleishigs not because it is a weekday food. again, what is the geder? my children find franks n blanks a special maachil but in your opinion it would be a weekday food. I have a shabbos talis that is the exact same as my weekday talis (size and cost) but it is set aside or shabbos. Why is pizza diferent from blintzes or salmon croquettes ot potato knishes or lox and whitefish? And where do see that we are meikel with the food for seuda shlishi and why is it not a proof? isn’t it still shabbos? Bettre uestion, do you serve any cold cuts on shabbos?
You eat shabbos what ever is chaviv to him.
or divrei torah (as per shulchan oruch)
Where in S.A. does it say divrei Torah is valid for the third seuda?
RG: on another point, while sefardim are machmir on not mixing fish and milchigs many ashkenazim are not (ie how many times is lox and cream cheese served at a seudas bris?
if so it may fall under the concept of “ein ldavar sof”
Just because you don’t know where to draw the line doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Hamburgers, hot dogs, and pizza are not Shabbosdik. They’re considered casual fare in general.
DY: that is the question? where is the line? I can say anything is a “weekday” food and therefore is not shabbos dik. You say hot dogs and hamburgers are not shabbos dik? what about roasted chicken? what makes that more shabbosdik? are meatballs shabbosdik? what makes hard salami shabbosdik? or herring? or gefilte fish? or boiled carp? or shnitzel? or even cholent? imean people in texas eat chili all week long. What makes blintzes and cheesecake yomtovdik for shavuous and pizza is not?
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Thus it appears that according to the Zohar, the obligation to eat the Third Meal can be fulfilled via Torah study.
No it doesn’t. It appears that if you can’t eat seudah shlishis, such as on erev Pesach, you should learn.
Indeed, the 3 seudos are based on the 3 times it says “Hayom” by the mon, yet the 3rd time it says “Hayom Lo”, hence the dispensation for having a seudah without the full requirements of a seuda
Apparently, that’s not the opinion of the Rashbi, who skipped seuda shlishlis on erev Pesach and didn’t substitute peiros.
RG: once again you use your favorite “wimp out” comment. and “ashkenazim dont know better are meikel”. Did you ever consider the real possibility we dont consider it a sakana? Even the Mogan Avrahom states that the the sakana of fish and meat may no longer be in effect. See MB (173: 3). Please show me the gemora that states outright that fish and milchigs are a sakana.
The מגן אברהם clearly says it was במקום סעודה שלישית, not that he was מקיים it.
clearly the Kaf Hachayim applies this Zohar to EVERY seuda shlishis, not just shabbos of erev pessach
Clearly, the Kaf Hachayim says we must actually eat to be mekayem seudah shlishis.
Rashbi also didn’t daven three times a day, but we obviously must.
So what you quoted as Shulchan Aruch is not in the Shulchan Aruch, not in the Nosei Keilim, and not in any of the mainstream poskim.
Maybe you found some online article which says it, but you haven’t found any real source, let alone in Shulchan Aruch as you claimed.
I totally follow. There are zero sources which allow us to not eat shalishudis.
The Mogen Avraham is not saying we can skip shalishudis. Not even on erev Pesach, since we hold we can be yotzei b’dieved with peiros. He is bringing the Rashbi as an opinion that peiros aren’t sufficient, but isn’t paskening that way for erev Pesach.
Note that the Kaf Hachayim does not claim to be explaining the Mogen Avraham, just the Rashbi.
He also doesn’t say he did it every week; in fact, he brings the Zohar as the M.A. does, that he only did it on erev Pesach.
In theory, the reason the K.H. ascribes to the Rashbi not eating shalishudis on erev Pesach should apply the whole year, yet he doesn’t claim that he did it the whole year. Presumably, even the Rashbi only relied on the “shvilei d’shmaya” sevara when he couldn’t eat pas.
RG:
The Ari Zal states to have completely different clothing for Shabbos and weekday, including a tallis. Whether the appearance is the same is not mentioned. As for Shalosh Seudos with Divrei Torah, that is the Chabad line. It is unique, and is not accepted elsewhere, not among Poskim, not among Chassidim elsewhere. Being yotzeh with Divrei Torah is not a lechatchila according anyone besides Chabad. Your quip about Hayom Lo is also not accepted anywhere else. You can push the Chabad agenda, but the CR is not the place for it. It is only referenced in halacha with regards to Erev Pesach. I suppose one could argue that someone that cannot eat for other reasons might at least substitute with Divrei Torah, but I would look to a Posek to support that. The Rav Shulchan Aruch does not bring down about substituting Divrei Torah for food at Shalosh Seudos.
In terms of what is Shabbosdige food, it is challenging to make most across the board statements. Can one use a can of tuna for fish at the first 2 Shabbos meals? How about sardines? Perhaps suchi? Our answers to this will be tough to put into anything specific in halacha, and it more dependent on our personal judgment. That leaves it extremely variable to cultural differences. There are foods that were common in different communities, with Sefardim and Ashkenazim being only one such difference.
The fish and milk issue is actually interesting. It seems that the source for this is a typo, in which the posek was referring to the sakanah involved in eating fish together with meat, and either wrote or the typesetter wrote cholov instead of bassar. This custom is not widely accepted, and the majority of the frum community eats lox with cream cheese, for example. It is inaccurate and unfair to refer to this as being machmir or meikil. I have discussed this issue with rabbonim and poskim. Not a single one agreed that there is “chumrah” to not eat fish with dairy.
Lastly, it is noted that the Shulchan Aruch states that the minhag on Shavuos is to eat מאכלי חלב, and there are numerous reasons given. There is only one that can be interpreted to refer to cheese, the posuk in Tehillim that calls Har Sinai ההר גבנונים. Interesting that in Hilchos Chanukah, it states clearly that the custom is גבינה, and there is no direct reference in SA to milk. The MB states that Yehudis gave the general cheese. There is a nice pilpul for this.
There is a famous vort from the Chiddushei Harim where he states that every day of the year corresponds to one of the Mitzvos Lo Saaseh. He references that Tish’a B’Av corresponds to Gid Hanosheh. He states that Shavuos corresponds to the issue of bassar b’cholov. In order to demonstrate that we are following this mitzvah, we eat both dairy and meat, and wait the requisite time between them.
Now you’re being silly. במקום can mean “in the same place as”, as in kiddush b’makom seudah, or “in place of”, as the Mogen Avraham is using it here. To read into the Mogen Avraham that you can be yotzei with divrei Torah is just another of your infamous distortions.
The chalacha SA YD 89,2 does not say an hour between milk (not hard cheese) and meat.
RG:
You referenced “Also Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer vol 17, s. 13.”
Looked, and found nothing relevant to the discussion.
In my earlier comment, I was stating clearly that with the exception of Chabad, no one supports the Divrei Torah as a substitute for Shlosh Seudos as a lechatchila. There can always be exceptions, and Erev Pesach is one example. Shabbos Teshuvah drosho is another. Here, it is bedi’eved. If you find additional exceptions, that would have no bearing on my point.
As for the Mateh Efraim noting that we cannot simply compare ourselves to Rashbi, that is essentially the Gemora (Brochos 36b) where it states הרבה עשו כרבי שמעון ב”י ולא עלתה בידם. One cannot always mimic the actions of a tzaddik. One needs to follow the instructions as found in Shas and Shulchan Aruch.
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