Milchemet Mitzvah article by Rabbi Dr. Ari Z. Zivotofsky

גוט געשריבּן
יישר־כח
Of something so obvious that it should not have to be spelled out, my beloved parents עליהם השלום would say: אַ שדכן רעדט פֿון חתונה

The fact that someone is a genius, doesn’t make him right or wrong.
All you need is someone with a 1 point IQ higher, and the argument falls away.

Regardless of whether it’s a milchemes mitzvah, the question is WHO is asking me to go to war. If it’s the current Israeli leadership, forgedaboutit. Bibi (whether you support his policies or not) is a mechalel shabbos befarhesya, and an ochel nevelos and treifos berabim. He’s not the type of person I’m relying on to decide whether it’s a mitzvah to do anything. (Not that any of the other MKs are better.

Additionally, the war in the North was a waste of time, as is the war in Gaza. All those soldiers killed for nothing. Only because he’s scared of Biden. Only 3 hostages have returned alive and for the loss of hundreds of soldiers. I cannot imagine that is a good return.
At the beginning of the war, they said no fuel into Gaza till the hostages are returned. That lasted two days. It’s a joke.
I can’t stop you from sending your teenage son to die for this war, but you can be sure as heck, I’m not sending mine.

Who cares if it\s technically a Milchemes Mitzvah or not? Yes, there are speicifc rules of obligations when it comes to a Milchemes Mitzvah. but it also teaches us an attitude on what our colelctive responsibility should be when our enemies attacks us who want to exterminate ALL of us and take our land. Does a Milchemes Mitzvah need a king and a Sanhedrin? Maybe. But just because we lack one doesn’t mean that we can’t take the lessons of Milchemes Mitzvah and apply it to the current tragic reality. This is not a chok like an Esrog where if it’s missing a small component then we dump the whole thing. A lemon that looks like an esrog is not an esrog. This is much deeper then that. These are our lives. These are our children. This is our land. And this is our future. What’s our responsibility to each other? What does Milchemes Mitzvah teach us? That we only have a responsibility to stand up for each other against our common enemy when we have 71 Sages sitting at the Lishkas HaGazis? What a tragic way to turn off our brains and throw our brothers into the fire while we pretend nothing can hurt is. What selfishness.

Is the good Rabbi Dr the Poseik for Klal Yisroel? He’s not at all.
The Jewish people always relied on their Torah Leaders to guide them in questions of Halacha & Hashkafa. The Great Torah Leaders of the the last generations have strongly discouraged Frum Jews from joining the army (excluding special circumstances).
It’s actually a bit humorous that a science professor Rabbi would publicly stick his nose into a sensitive halacha/hashkafa question like this, as though his opinion counts VS the Gedolei Torah of the last 70 years.

There’s no reason to repost articles from Modern Orthodox publications to the Yeshiva World which is catering mostly to a Chareidi readership.

Pony> If the Chazon Ish, Rav Elyashiv, Reb Moshe and the Titz Eliezer all held that the current wars are milchemes mitzvah, why did they not encourage their followers to enlist in the IDF?

This is a very good question. I don’t think the article claims that Chazon Ish and R Moshe defined current wars as such, but he does about others. We probably should start by reviewing these sources. Could someone look up these sources and see what is the context of those before jumping to the next stage.

> Furthermore, why did they not themselves sign up?

I just quoted a Rav that asked Rav Elyashiv shaylos related to Mossad and came away with a feeling that the Rav was already informed about Mossad needs. So, maybe the Rav felt that he contributed with his halachik knowledge? Just the fact that he apparently was involved with such agencies reveals that he did not see their work as treif.

@ Haimy,
The leaders of the last generation strongly discouraged yeshiva boys from fighting . In the early days there were many not in yeshiva yet still charedi who fought. Look at pictures from the six day war. I should say leaders from two generations ago vs last generation

enstead of arguing I’ll go with you… can you tell me if there is an heter not to be in a milchemet mitzva because you don’t live in eretz yisrael or is there an heter for someone not to fight in the milchemet mitzva because they already served or rather lo achzor ad kalotam.. I think acording to you every jew should be obligated to go fight until the end of the battle (20 – 60 year olds) when I’ll see the author be mekaim his shitah I’ll take him seriously enough bli neder to check what he wrote…

Rav Chaim Kanievsky himself was drafted in 1948 & fought. I’m sure you’ll find photos of Chareidi Jews fighting in the 6 day & Yom Kippur War as well. Those were exceptional circumstances.
We are BH not in that situation today.

The vast majority of Gedolei Torah over the last 100 years didn’t approve of supporting a secular Zionist State. They viewed the Israeli army as a spiritually dangerous place for a religious person to be part of & should be avoided whenever possible.

I’m not learning the sugya of Milchemes Mitzva right now to start debating you about it. I know that there are 100’s of great poskim whose knowledge of halacha far surpasses Rabbi Dr Zivotofsky, who do not agree with his conclusions & they would urge every Frum person to avoid the army like the plague, if they can.
The gedolei Torah throughout history were Jews who spent their entire lives studying Torah every waking moment. They weren’t soldiers part-time. It takes that kind of commitment to Torah & kedusha to produce the gems like Rav Ahron Kotler, Rav Moshe, Rav Shlomo Zalmen, Rav Elyoshiv, Rav Shach, Rav Yaakov, The Steipler, the Chazon Ish, Etc. The Rabbi/soldier is an ant compared to any of these spiritual giants. And if he’s honest, he’ll admit so. He was just raised in a Mizrachi environment and chose the opinion of the Yechidim like Rav Kook & Rav Soloveitzik over the many others who disagreed with them.
Imagine a group of intellectual midgets discussing how a group of intellectual giants should have decided, straight out ridiculous!

Haimy > The gedolei Torah throughout history were Jews who spent their entire lives studying Torah every waking moment.

How can you right something so demonstratably not true? Many amoraim were in business; Rambam was a doctor; Shamai a builder; R Huna had wineries; R Yohanan Hasandaler was a sandaler. It was a privilege given to talmidei chachamim – they were allowed to come to the market and sell before others (Bava Basra). R Salanter wanted to travel beyond the “pale” to visit Yidden there – so instead of doing it illegally like many did, he learned a profession of ink-maker and registered as such. Chofetz Chaim travelled around selling his own books (after making a mark on each sefer after checking that it was printed correctly).

A valid daas yachid would be, for example, the Satmar Rav regarding vising the kosel or Israelis voting in elections. These are things that gedolei Torah do, but that the Satmar Rav held was wrong. That’s an example of daas yachid, not, lihavdil, some maskil or whatever else who claims – with no Torah source even attempted – that foreign ideology is really Judaism.

Chaimy87

Allow me to respond

I was referring to the ground war in the North.
Not the air war.
Hezbullah was firing 200+ missiles a day up to the ceasefire.
And that was even with soldiers on the ground. Ultimately what allowed the people to move back north was the ceasefire, not the IDF cleaning southern Lebanon of hezbullah.
Be honest with yourself, do you think southern Lebanon is safe? Do you think hezbullah isn’t returning there? Of course they are. They are already back.

Gaza.
The hostages that were returned was through negotiations. Not the military pressure. Hamas said they would do a prisoner exchange on Oct 8th. (I personally don’t believe in exchanges but that’s another discussion)
Only three or four hostages were freed by the IDF. Dozens of hostages were killed directly by the IDF and they lost hundreds of soldiers.
To say Hamas is defeated is a joke. And it sounds like Bagdad bob (Google him if you don’t know who that is)
If they are anyways doing prisoner exchanges, then they should have done that a year ago or more. This is a failure. Don’t get emotional. Just factual. If the IDF leaves Gaza today, Hamas is still there. And theyll return with a vengeance .
The IDF has not yet defeated Hamas in any meaningful way.
The are tiptoing over Gaza to not upset the Dems in the USA.

Third point, I never said the Israelis are looking to shmad us.
I said that a milchemes mitzvah is not a war that is prposed by Bibi or any other secular Israeli who violates the Torah publicly.
That’s all I said.

I also didn’t say the war was unnecessary. I said the way it’s being caught, by placing soldiers in danger, is definitely detrimental to us hidden who care about the lives of others.
My son is not going to fight a war that the Israelis have no intention or possiblity of winning.
If there were other circumstances, maybe. But not the way it is now.

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/users/always_ask_questions

“How can you right something so demonstratably not true? Many amoraim were in business; Rambam was a doctor; Shamai a builder; R Huna had wineries; R Yohanan Hasandaler was a sandaler”

Absolutely True.
Rav Chaim Voloziner in Nefesh Hachaim states that even when those Gedolei olom were involved in business, they were thinking in learning.
We cannot do this today, that’s why we need to support the full time learning of the elite Talmidei Chachomim of the Dor.

The Rambam states that it’s Asur for a Posek or Rav to take money for his service tothe Tzibbur. The Shulchon Aruch & all the poskim of the latter Doros includingh the Mishna Berurah permit taking money from other’s inorder to learn because it’s impossible to become great in Torah otherwise in the later generations. There were exceptions to this rule like the Chayei Odom who was a merchant, but nearly every Gadol Batorah of the last hundreds of years was Kulo Shokuah Batorah.

Chareidi Jewry was led by By the great Torah Giants of the 20th century like the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Ozer, Rav Chaim Brisker, All the Chassidic Rabbonim & Rebbe’s including of course Chabad, As well as the Sefardic Gedolim rejected the Mizrachi Movement as an acceptable path for the Torah True Jew. It wasn’t spoken about as Ailu Veailu, it was a derech rejected outright as wrong & a danger to its adherents. This doen’t mean that they aren’t Orthodox, We love them as full Shomer Shabbos Jews who unfortunately are on the wrong course. Similiar to how we view the Meshichist group in Chabad, & much of Chabad in General. They exceptionally kind & well meaning Jews who do tremendous good but are on the wrong track is some important ways.

There’s no need for me or anyone else to get into the minutuea of Milchemes Mitzva because even if there was a Milchemes Mitzva going on, We don’t have an acceptable army framework to join in this Milchoma! If we could organize an independent Chareidi battalion that only answers to Gedolei Torah, not under the jusidiction of athiest generals or defense ministers then we could start debating the issue of Milchemes Mitzva. This doesn’t exist right now.

Haimy > Rav Chaim Voloziner in Nefesh Hachaim states that even when those Gedolei olom were involved in business, they were thinking in learning.
> permit taking money from other’s in order to learn because it’s impossible to become great in Torah otherwise in the later generations.

True. And there are other great reasons for current charedi lifestyle beyond earlier poskim. Charedim are, so far, way more successful than other groups in saving Yidden from assimilation and in building communities. What concerns me is that b’dieved became l’hathila. So, Chofetz Chaim himself was able to find time (*) to first work in a store, and then check the quality of printing of every sefer, and travel to sell them. Did he go against MB?! Of course not. So, any learner (and kal vehomer not learner) should ask himself whether he can be closer to Rambam’s ideal – can he not take tzedoka? can he not take non-Jewish charity intended for people who are not able to work? can he work once a week? can he learn a profession that will help all of the above? If these questions were honestly asked, we would see different outcomes.

Most important: in order to justify what they do, a lot of people find it necessary to disparage everything that is not like them. This seems almost necessary logically: it is hard to admit that you are doing something b’dieved and still have a strong self-esteem. So, the end result – community protects itself alright – staying in the midbar when surroundings are bad, according to Rambam quoted by Chazon Ish. But can we normalize midbar and say – this is what Hashem wants us to always do? At the end, Torah is Emes, not just a medicine protecting us from dangers.

(*) This is how Ch Ch saw time (tzait): Radin yeshiva students could not find a sefer quoted in MB, so they went to Ch Ch, thinking that he must have the sefer at home, as he quotes. Ch Ch said that they could take 30 minutes on a train to go to an Yid who has the sefer. To their surprise why he didn’t buy his own copy, Ch Ch said sefer is gelt, and gelt is tzait, and tzait is Toirah. Notice, he did not suggest getting a donation either …

@yacr85,
Huh?
1) Re Lebanon:
A) Of course the ground invasion did it. And yes the ceasefire was what allowed people to move back. But what do you think pressured Hezbollah into a ceasefire? The combination of the air attacks and that the entire south Lebanon was wiped out by the ground invasion. That included all their strategic locations. Addiotnally, the IDF was its on way to Beruit. They didn’t want a “ground invasion” of Beruit. Like what else do you think forced Hezbollah into a ceasefire? The air alone would have never done that. Get real.
B) Is the North safe now? yes 100%. And thats because of the ground invasion. The biggest risk was that hezbollah was building up in prep for an Oct 7 like attack on its border. The whole south is wiped out and Hezbollah has nothing there. They are completely obliterated in the south Lebnaon. They had tunnels and weapons and miliatry bases/ bunkers all over. Thats all gone. So yes the north is very safe now. I’d have no issue living there. And the ground invasion was needed.
c) Hezbollah is a little nothing now. It will take years to rebuild it and without Syria help. This is a clear win. Of course many low level terrorists still remain but they are a nothing. No power and no way to pose a threat now for a long time.
2) Gaza: Of course those hostages were freed because of the IDF attacks. What forced that first round of negotiations? The fact that Hamas was hopping the IDF won’t invade Gaza city like it did to North Gaza. The invasion sacred them. Now is Hamas defeated? Thats not as clear as Hezbollah. But they are extremely weak. They have no infrastructure and their land is in such disarray. Israel is not leaving so quikcly and they know it. They can want to attack again with a vengance but they will have a very very hard time attacking now. israel is on top of thwem and in Gaza. They will continue to ack them and watch over them like a hawk. Many of their tunnels are gone. Its at least a ten year set back.

Your logic that war doesnt do this but ceasefires do is so flawed. What pushes them into a ceasefire in the first place? The ground invasion’s and war. of course this is necessary. Now is it a “mitzva” I don’t know. But its not “bibi’s war”

A modern working Talmid Chacham – Boruch Epstein, Torah Temimah (and “my uncle the Netziv”, son of Aruch Hashulchan, learnt in Volozhin) – he was working in a bank in Pinsk in Poland.

Haimy- Really? You want a unit that only answers to the Gedolei Torah? After stressing how are Gedolim need to be kulo Torah with very little experience with the outside world, you would consult them on military matters with them having very little experience with the military matters, political matters, or foreign policy? Obviously, poskim need to be consulted on Halachic issues that come up in the army, just like poskim need to be consulted when halachic issues come up in medical or financial matters… but ultimately, you’re not asking a Gadol to make the final medical decision of a hospital or for medical treatment. You leave that to the doctors, and even when they are atheists! Why shouldn’t a military unit be under the jurisdiction of military experts and generals just because they aren’t frum?

@bprince613
I don’t fully buy your story. And then there is Hesder. Some of those solders are so ehrlich. I don’t see shmad. As R Asher Weiss the kind of shailas he gets from so many of these solders that make him cry. Like these holy jews who lost hands and need to know which one should he put on teflin. Look at the torah and davening done in Gaza. These aren’t “shmad”. And yes there are isolated stories of the IDF forcing things on nachal chardei but its mostly isolated incidents. Its not the normal day to day. Your stories are more fear mongering than reality.

@anIsraeliYid; Most gedolim pre war who were against Zionism were against being secular vs zionsim. Like the imeri emes etc. And so when you look at the dynamics today there are differneces. Firstly, the state is here already and its not just should a secular state exist but how to deal with it. Second, there is no movement any more that encourages wild scale shmad like the “isms” pre war Europe. Mostly the frum stay frum. The govt also is no longer out to shamd the frum like Ben Gurion did. They do want them to leave kollel and integrate more but they aren’t saying don’t keep shabbos or mirzvas. Yes I hear of these isolated stories where they force frum people to hear Kol Ishah. But its isolated with a few bad actors. Even the biggest anti frum like Lapid aren’t looking to make you irrelgious. They just want them to intergrate, be like the rest of the country just religous.. More like a classsic flatbush or 5 towns working dad is fine with them. (I agree that it is still anti chasdish but one can debate about the chasdish lifestyle yet still be frum)

@Chaim87 – I don’t disagree with what you state – I only noted that the majority of pre-war European Gedolim opposed Zionism, without noting why. Given all that’s happened since, and what Israel and Zionism are today, I most certainly agree with you that it is far from clear that they’d continue to have the same attitude.

@Haimy – “Ulifi shehotzi atzmo min haklal, kofer b’ikur”. Your attempt to find excuses to separate from the rest of Klal Yisrael is contrary to “Kol Yisrael areivim zeh l’zeh”. As I stated before – you’ve chosen a position, and are now trying to twist anything you can to justify it. The fact that the leaders of the modern State of Israel are not Frum does not negate you – and any other Jew – having an obligation to protect your fellow Jews when they’re in physical danger. And don’t give you your “We appreciate the selflessness of many putting their lives in danger for the sake of others” – we don’t need or want your appreciation – we want you here by our sides. You have a twisted concept of Hakaras Hatov when you are deliberately imposing additional burdens on those you claim to be makir tov to through your cowardly failure to join them.

As to whom the leaders of the land are – you know that there is a question asked as to why we celebrate Channukah, given that Beis Chashmona’i ultimately went bad. The answer given is “Lifi shechazra malchus l’Yisrael yoser mimasayim shana” – because Jewish sovereignty was restored for over 200 years (actually a bit less, but that’s what the Gemara says). In other words – Jewish sovereignty, even when the Jews in question are not Shomrei Torah uMitzvos, is considered an inherent positive.

So go on your merry way, smugly self-satisfied that you are following “THE GEDOILIM”. Just don’t fool yourself into thinking that what you’re doing is showing consideration for your fellow Jew through your unwanted “appreciation” – you can keep that to yourself, as we don’t need or want it.

an Israeli Yid