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As we’re all aware, a new government has been formed in Israel. Two of the key players in this new coalition, Yair Lapid and Naftali Bennet (both newcomers to Israeli politics), have made it their top priority to draft as many kollel yungerleit as possible into the army, thereby taking them away from their Torah study. They have decided, against the wishes and pleas of the Gedolei HaDor Shlita, to cut all state funding to the vast majority of the yoshvei beis medrash.
Meanwhile, in America, a political figure is rapidly rising from obscurity and quickly becoming one of the biggest names in politics today. Rand Paul has, in the space of a few weeks, gone from an being an extremist often derided by the establishment of his own party to being the face of the “new GOP”. There is already talk he may become his party’s standard-bearer in the next election (which missteps by his biggest possible rival, Marco Rubio, haven’t hurt).
As part of his plan to eliminate the national debt, Rand Paul advocates cutting any and all monetary aid to foreign countries. This would be particularly disastrous for Israel, whose army is largely funded the US.
Coincidence? I think not.
American foreign aid actually hurts Israel. Rand Paul’s proposal would help the Israeli economy.
As an example:
Remember the “Lavi” – an Israeli plane that would have been state of the art and able to compete for global arms sales – and made by Israeli workers. THe Americans offered “aid” to be used for buying American planes – and preserving jobs for Americans.
Consider a rifle that costs $1000 for the Israelis to make. The American model costs $2000, and is just as good. The USA comes along and offers to “give” the Israelis $1500 of foreign aid to buy rifles – as long as they buy American rifles. With this figured in, the American rifle is $500.
This would be particularly disastrous for Israel, whose army is largely funded the US.
Aderaba, it would be wonderful for Eretz Yisroel and Yidden all over. Besides, the Ann Randist would hurt American Yeshivos way more than he could possibly hurt Eretz Yisroel.
It would be great if US funds are cut. When you are on the Dole, you are slave to the master who gives it to you, Cut the Handout and you are free to do what you want.
Nobody gives out free money for nothing
kanoi next door- you live in the 1950’s. The aid that the US gives israel is a very small part of the annual budget (about 2 %) and the total cut of american aid would barely be noitced by israel. In addition, as apukerma says (I can’t believe Ii agree with him!), israel was prevented fro mdeveloping its own weapons under pressure fro mthe US. if they would be on their own, they would prosper nd thrive!
The Kanoi Next Door -“As part of his plan to eliminate the national debt, Rand Paul advocates cutting any and all monetary aid to foreign countries. This would be particularly disastrous for Israel, whose army is largely funded the US.”
I already mentioned this idea. Now to get the Frum US communities to back this guy.
Mr. Berlin -“The aid that the US gives israel is a very small part of the annual budget (about 2 %) and the total cut of american aid would barely be noitced by israel.”
I’m also for the US to stop preventing Israel from being declared Apartheid. It’s time to start with sanctions against Apartheid Israel.
Health!!!!!>VCBDFBF:SBSLEMNLHKBLGKNN<FGLGBFL:AWDF:QWFDVDSDVLSDSDVVVVVVVLSDVSDVSDVSVDSSDVSSD
Kanoi, get over it. It is not an inborn, unalienable right of every Israeli Chareidi to learn forever on the money squeezed out of unwilling and resentful public and never be bothered with any requests!
mdd – Ah, the true feelings of a Zionist towards Frum Jews.
First of all, the iron dome was not entirely funded by the US, it was also funded by Israel. Secondly, one of the reasons why the US funded it is because it benefits the US. They get real life testing of a weapon that the US can use.
Health, where exactly did MDD state anything about his feelings about Charedim? He merely stated that it is not a right to sit and learn and take funding from people, especially if they don’t want to give it. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
They probably wouldn’t get too upset over a couple of thousand.
But you and I both know that it’s far more than just a couple of thousand.
Health,
Apartheid!!!! Have you been taken in by BDS propaganda? A semi-autonomous region doesn’t equal apartheid.
You really want the UN and the US to impose sanctions on Israel? You want Jews to suffer????
Please tell me that was just a joke in poor taste.
I should point out that Mr. Rand is in favor of cutting ALL foreign aid. That means no aid for the Palestinians, Egyptians, Saudis etc.
As long as you are cutting everyone’s aid, Israel will be just fine.
Rand Paul doesn’t just want to end foreign aid, he wants to bring back pre-WW2 isolationism. If Israel ever gets attacked, he would let it get overrun. And he would do squat to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons.
He would be a disaster for America, Israel, and the world.
truthsharer -“Health, where exactly did MDD state anything about his feelings about Charedim?”
In his post to me full of Gibberish.
“I’m also for the US to stop preventing Israel from being declared Apartheid. It’s time to start with sanctions against Apartheid Israel.”
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that some BDS activist has infiltrated this web site and hijacked your nickname, not that you have joined Neturei Karta.
benignuman -“You really want the UN and the US to impose sanctions on Israel? You want Jews to suffer????
Please tell me that was just a joke in poor taste.”
This is No joke. The way it is right now – the New Gov., acc. to the Labor leader, have plans to make many people in that country suffer and I believe her. So it’s not just the Charedim. These people are elitists, a remnant of the Russian Communist Dictatorship (similar to). So if they actually go ahead with their plans and Jews there start to suffer and it doesn’t even have to be Charedim necessarily, yes, we Jews in the “Galut” should Not sit idly by and do nothing. We should use any means at our disposal to stop this Israeli Gov., and this includes pushing our Gov. to support sanctions against Israel.
Health: When you say that we should declare Israel “Apartheid” you are throwing in your lot with the worst of the Sonei Yisrael anti-Semites out there. That is a claim made solely by people who want to distort facts and would love to see you fall just as quickly as any other Jew. Not only is it a blatant lie, it is a claim made only by those who wish our utter and complete destruction.
Sam2 -“Health: When you say that we should declare Israel “Apartheid” you are throwing in your lot with the worst of the Sonei Yisrael anti-Semites out there. That is a claim made solely by people who want to distort facts and would love to see you fall just as quickly as any other Jew.”
It’s possible it’s a lie, but we can’t be silent about Charedim abuse.
“Not only is it a blatant lie, it is a claim made only by those who wish our utter and complete destruction.”
I don’t want the destruction of Israel, not necessarily even of Zionism, but of the current Gov. there.
Past Govs. were bearable, even possible to live with until Moshiach, but not this one. Even if they implement 10% of what they say they are going to do – is Not tolerable.
How does the MO community, which you are a part of, justify joining the likes of Zionists like Lapid to hurt Charedim and destroy a lot of the Jewish (Halachic) face of the Medina?
Health, please, It is bearable, and tolerable. As a charedi living in Israel with a 17 year old son, let me assure you, the amount of money the government is currently giving is negligible. The biggest problem is that the government has taken away the option to work from the community. If this law fixes the problem, and the draft starts at 21 then the biggest problem will be who decides who the big learners are. I have 5 sons, i want them to be frum, and be able to make a living. If they are passionate about learning, wonderful, if not, I want them to be more than van drivers or money changers. There are no disasters here.
eXISTENTIALFISH – While you might be happy what they are doing -you are one individual. The Gedolim represent the rest of the Charedim and they said this Gov. is intolerable.
The Kanoi Next Door -“Health, how exactly do you think sanctions against Israel will help the Chareidim? Actually, all it would do is hurt all the Jews living in Israel, regardless of their affiliation.”
It will bring down the Gov. sooner or later. When people suffer they blame their Gov.
well, as the kanoi next door used me in a late post, allow me to respond.
First, I never called them parasites- not even bank kvetchers. As I said in another post, my own flesh and blood is in a kollel. But, in line with thousands of others, we feel that
1) not everyone should learn forever on someoone else’s chesbon. We will accept ‘asoroh batlonim” but not everyone.It will save countless millions.
2) Defending one’s own brothers and sisters is a mitzvoh and everyone should particiate. How, and how long ,can be open to debate, but to reject any attempt at “sharing the burden’ is egoistical and smacks of a very dismssiive atttitude to other Jews.
Lastly, it would ser e every chareidi well if he cound go out and work to feed his family. After all, it is only a mitzvoh d’oraisa..
Maybe the middah k’neged middah is because unfortunately, there were many scams going on with yeshivos in Israel. People claimed they were sitting and learning to collect a government check, and really weren’t. There have been many scams like these that were busted. Can you blame secular Israelis for being upset?
rabbiofberlin: great post!
I am constantly shocked about how the standard among so many Israeli chareidim is to never work and live off the backs of everyone else. Then, they are suprised why there is so much opposition to their preferred lifestyle.
When you don’t teach your son a trade, you teach him to be a thief. Somehow, this teaching has escaped many supposedly religious people.
The Kanoi Next Door -“That’s ridiculous. Bringing down the government will make things worse, not better. How are the populations in Egypt and Syria doing?”
When I said bringing down the Gov., I didn’t mean revolution like in those countries. Yes, this Gov. is Not all powerful, even though lots of posters here think that they are. The last time a Lapid was in office -the Gov. didn’t last too long.
If Israel’s economy takes a quick downturn -this Gov. won’t last too long. Your pacifist tone doesn’t make me believe that you’re a real Kanoi. Perhaps your SN is wishful thinking on your part.
What are you gonna do when Charedim start starving and being treated like garbage? Are you just gonna shake your finger at the zionists and say No, No -that’s not nice – play fair?
Health, you do not hold of the medinah, but you think that it has an absolute chiyuv to support the Chareidim in kollel. If they don’t hold of the medinah, let them go get a job. In E.Y. or otherwise.
Maybe all frum Jews here in the US should drop their jobs and demand being supported?
Health: You have got to lose this idea that “Kanaus” means using carte blanche to insult anyone and everyone that disagrees with you. TKND is certainly enough of a Kanoi in his own way. There is no need for any insults here.
Kanoi, since you agree that it’s not an inborn right but rather a zechus, you have also to agree/understand that you may not force a zechus on somebody if they don’t want it.
ksnoi- i don’t engage in long debates in this forum anymore,as most people (on obth sides) have their mind firmlhy made up, but I do like to correct false assumptions.
First, why don’t you check the mishneh and gemoro in sotah,perek 8,mishneh 7. There is absolutely no HETTER of talmud torah for anyone when it is a milchemes mitzvah. The Rambam paskens the same way. By the way,your assumption of freeing oneself through talmud torah is false when it comes to mitzvos “begufoi”. You cannot claim -“I learn therefore I do not put on tefillin” this would be absurd. Moreoever, there are plenty of mitzvos that supersede talmud torah (levaya, simchas chosson vekallah)
Secondly, to feed one’s wife and family is a d’oraisa. See mishpotim “she-eo, kesuoso veonosso”.Additionally, every married man signed the kesuboh where he undertook to feed and clothe and support his wife. There is also a chiyuv of supporting one’s small children and,of course, the mishne in kiddushin ,perek 1, mishneh 7 and the gemoro on it clearly obligate a man to learn a profession so as to support his family.
Lastly, you should look up the gemoro berachos 35B, where the gemoro clearly indicates that , in today’s world, it is impossible for most people (check the loshon hagemoro “rabbim”)to rely upon others to support then without working themlseves.
As far as your point of American aid, without it, you are your own boss in many spheres and may be an advantage. To support a large part of the population for little return is a recipe for financial disaster.
mdd -“Health, you do not hold of the medinah, but you think that it has an absolute chiyuv to support the Chareidim in kollel. If they don’t hold of the medinah, let them go get a job. In E.Y. or otherwise.
Maybe all frum Jews here in the US should drop their jobs and demand being supported?”
Why put words in my mouth just to ask questions? I posted many times that I personally don’t believe that Yeshivos should take money from the Gov.
I’ll repeat it again. I’m against this Gov. – 1. Because they want to remove the religious Status Quo and revert to a non-religious, non-Jewish (Judaism is only following some Halacha at least) Zionist State.
2. They are forcing Charedim to go to the army against the Psak of the Gedolim. And if they don’t go, they are going to deny or revoke some/all of their individual social programs. Since they don’t really want them in the army because the IDF said so -“We don’t want or need them” -this is only a pretense. They just don’t want to give social programs to Charedim because they are considered second-class citizens like the arabs. This discrimination is intolerable to me!
The IDF brass says they can manage without them, but a lot of stam Israelis fell it is unfair for the Chareidim to be getting money from the State while refusing to do what (in their eyes) is a service to the State — the army duty, or contribute to the common basket by working. They agreee to free a large persentage from the army duty. They pay and they make the rules as to who get sthe money.
The Govermnent says that if someone refuses to serve, he should not get the benefits (except for the 25% of masmidim). That is fair, reasinable and quite generous.
kanoi- we can argue what milchemes mitzvah is but certainly protecting Jews from their enemies iscertainly that (check the Rambam)
Your second point about the family being fed is sophistry. To feed one’s family, you must have a paying occupation- not rely upon the others. Check gemoro brochos (mentioned) that clearly indicates that to learn forever is for a very select few ( to which I agree). the shutfos of Yossochor uzevulun indicates as much. No one denies that for a select few, the learning model is genuine and should be supported. these are the dayaonim of the future. The problem is that now, EVERYONE eats at the public trough. That is a recipe for financial disaster.As far as why israle hasn’t reliquished american aid- there are many israelis who say exactly that!
Besides, Kanoi, if they don’t stop the the Chareidim now, it will be impossible to do in the future because of their growing numbers. Even if 40% of the population were Chareidim and there were mamesh no choice but for the Chareidim to serve and work, I am afraid that the Israeli Chareidim are so unreasonable that they would not have gone to work and to serve.
mdd -“The IDF brass says they can manage without them, but a lot of stam Israelis fell it is unfair for the Chareidim to be getting money from the State while refusing to do what (in their eyes) is a service to the State — the army duty, or contribute to the common basket by working. They agreee to free a large persentage from the army duty. They pay and they make the rules as to who get sthe money.”
Yes, I know about their new cry of “sharing the burden”, in other words -“Boo Hoo, it’s not fair”.
No. 1. The fact that they don’t have a Torah education that teaches “Torah protects” is Not the Charedim’s fault -it’s their fault that these Chilonim don’t want to learn any Torah, but if they wanted to there is ample opportunity in EY to learn Torah.
So the Truth is the Charedim learning Torah are doing more than their fair share.
2. If the army says we don’t want to change the way the army works -who are these politicians to say -we will force change on you? Perhaps the reason the army wants to keep everything the same because this way the army gets the most out of their personnel. If you have a bigger influx of recruits this means less time in army service, just maybe less time is Not enough to get experienced soldiers. Being a soldier is not about just shooting a gun anymore -they have something called modern warfare. And this is why most countries have gotten away from the draft.
So this sick jealously that they have on Charedim and their opinion that Charedim don’t deserve anything, just like arabs, is actually putting the whole country in danger.
But they don’t care about having a strong army – all they care about is stopping the Charedim from practicing their religion. It’s called religious coercion. Just like what was done in the time of the crusades and during the Spanish Inquisition, etc.!
No. 1. The fact that they don’t have a Torah education that teaches “Torah protects” is Not the Charedim’s fault -it’s their fault that these Chilonim don’t want to learn any Torah, but if they wanted to there is ample opportunity in EY to learn Torah.
So the Truth is the Charedim learning Torah are doing more than their fair share.
I happen to (personally) like this argument. Good luck convincing a non-Charaidi Jew that Charadim are correct because the Charaidi lifestyle is the correct one.
GAW -“I happen to (personally) like this argument. Good luck convincing a non-Charaidi Jew that Charadim are correct because the Charaidi lifestyle is the correct one.”
No, that wasn’t the purpose of the argument. I know I’m not going to convince any Chiloni about this. The purpose was to “mdd”, who keeps screaming Chillul Hashem because he defends this current Gov. He kept making it sound that if we don’t follow the orders of this current Gov. then it’s our fault for any punishment that they give us. This is Not correct Morally and this is what my post was about.
To add/combine the responses of zahavasdad and truthsayer: the U.S. gets to promote its tunnel-vision appeasement strategy, paid for through Israeli lives (and risk); THAT’s the real benefit of Iron Dome to U.S. The tech. expertise and military sales for the U.S. are just the bonus (icing on the cake, win-win etc.) $ 50-75K per missile launched to protect those endangered by the Medina’s adoption of bad U.S. policy.
I don’t want to get too much into the Yeshiva conscription issue.
Some points I don’t see here:
On the one Hand:
Didn’t the greatest tzaddikim of previous generations work four hours per day?
Isn’t it accepted that each generation is less in every way?
So how can most exempt themselves from working/serving as much as their betters did?
On the other Hand:
The IDF is Completely untrustworthy to uphold halacha for observant soldiers. Arutz7 has reported on numerous examples.
Even for “morale” (their interpretation of our American feminist narishkeit)they force group singalongs. Because the Medina disrespects observance, and even the Right to be observant. Witness the electrical generators being moved on Shabbos despite resting pads having been built for that purpose. Witness unneeded Shabbos troop movements and activity. Witness the chilul Hashem of soldiers (ordered to assist in) dismantling “settlements”.
Also if this is some “Democracy” issue – WHAT ABOUT THE ARABS??!!
Some Arab MK said recently ‘we don’t want to serve and you don’t want us serving’. Both true BUT – where’s your Democracy now, Rico?? Are Yeshiva students somehow less worthy of exemption than the murderers (present and future) of our people (chas v’shalom)
Maybe a Modest Proposal – divert the Palestinian taxes to pay for Yeshiva student deferments??!!
Anyhow shkia is approaching – Chag Kasher V’Sameach!
“The IDF is Completely untrustworthy to uphold halacha for observant soldiers.”
The IDF has good rabbis. It should follow them! (As should all the religious soldiers, from whatever background. Ideally, ALL the soldiers should follow them.)
Note that there are many kulot for armies; we just learned four of them in Daf Yomi.
“Some Arab MK said recently ‘we don’t want to serve and you don’t want us serving’. “
Yet there have always been a small number of Arabs serving in the IDF; the Druze community even accepts being drafted and I’m aware of one Druze who became a general.
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