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simcha613
enlighten me, please.
The mo, by definition, looks to modernize the orthodox movement.
Pray tell, what do you think about Metzitzah B’Peh? should we “modernize” it because it may be “unnecessary”?
because “tims have changed”?
because the goy laughs at us?
because it’s barbaric?
because we are now “enlightened” and understand and now know better then our forefathers?
lesschumras-
as stuck pointed out, the bal shem followed the ariz’l.
Are we now comparing R’ Moshe’s son in-law to the ariz’l?
lesschumras:
Find me somebody half as accepted as the Baal Shem Tov who advocates not doing metzitzah bi’peh and we’ll talk.
Toi:
“the obtuseness of this thread is astounding. the biggest rabbis say yes, the left-leaning westernized clergy-dudes say no, and all of a sudden the frumme’ become reshaim.”
What do you mean, “all of a sudden”? The frummies have always been (and always will be) the reshaim.
Yitzchokm: The “MO”, whatever that means, aren’t interested in “modernizing” anything. Please, before you bash a group, define them. What does “MO” mean to you? And, like I said, I think the main claim is that Metzitzah B’peh might be unnecessary because it was the most efficient way to do Metzitzah, not because there is a Halachic imperative to do it that way. Not because of what anyone else thinks or of subjective barbarism or even about “modernizing” Judaism. Just that there may be a safer, equally effective, equally Halachic way to do it nowadays. That’s the claim. Please tell me how that’s “modernizing” Orthodoxy.
yitzchokm- it has nothing to do with modernizing. It has to do with that metzitzah bapeh might be more dangerous than metzitzah bakli (which is equally archaic yet no one wants to stop that), and since there is no source that metzitzah has to be done with peh, there is no reason not to do it the safer way.
“because we are now “enlightened” and understand and now know better then our forefathers?” some could argue that Chazal, the Rishonim, and early Achronim (the forefathers I assume you mean) were not as advanced in science and medicine as we are (I’m assuming they would have had no problem smoking as many of our gedolim in previous generations did before it was medically proven to be dangerous) and were unaware of the potential dangers in metzitzah bapeh.
Simcha613: MBP doesnt have a source? The Gemorah and Shulchan Aruch are not good source? In fact, the Maharam Schick writes MBP is Torahs Moshe M’Sinai.
stuck- Gemara and S”A only say metitzah. To the best of my knowledged it never specifies by mouth. For all I know, doing it with a tube is just as good and is probably safer.
And it is a big machlokes whether Chazal knew science or not. I’m not saying one way or another, but there are Gedolim on both sides of the issue. If I’m not mistaken, the Gemara says we have to wash the baby with hot water after the bris because of sakanah (or something along those line) which we don’t practice anymore because it’s no longer a sakanah. Whatever you say either nishtaneh hateva or they were basing themselves on medical science that has been disproven, we don’t practice the science in the Gemara. Therefore, metzizah, which may have been done orally in the time of the Gemara, might be dangerous nowadays.
You’re missing my point. You say you can’t understand how people can give up their mesorah so easy and I gave you a relatively recent example where tens of thousands of Jews voluntarily abandoned centuries of nusach and minhagim to become chassidim
Stuck: No one (I think) is disputing that. The question is whether the suction was direct because of expedience or because it is inherently meant to be done that way.
There actually is a major controversy whether we can be mechalel Shabbos for metzitzah nowadays. We aren’t mechalel Shabbos to heat up the water for the baby because even though the Gemara says we should, the sakanah no longer exists. There are poskim who say that since according to the Gemara metzitzah is also for a sakanah that we no longer believe exists then one is not allowed to be mechalel Shabbos for it.
So everyone ought to agree this much: Both opinions on MBP is 100% legit. If someones shitta is to use a tube, no one should stop them or complain or criticize. If someones shitta is MBP is mandatory, no one should stop them or complain or criticize. (The mohel should take all safety precautions.)
Agreed? Okay.
The problem lies with the anti-MBP camp. The pro-MBP is NOT attempting to force everyone to engage in mbp. Yet, elements in the anti-MBP camp IS trying to stop ANYONE from doing mbp. Most notoriously, RMDT is advocating forcing everyone to stop MBP.
If there were people who believed it was un-tzniyus to wear seatbelts, I would imagine there would be some Rabbanim who wouldn’t simply say “eilu va’eilu” but try and actively stop other Jews from doing something that’s dangerous and could lead to loss of life.
Simialrly, I completely understand R’ Twersky who is not content with saying “let them do metzitzah bapeh” because he believes it’s a sakanah and therefore is doing what he can to protect the health and lives of babies.
Stuck: If proper safety precautions were ensured no one would be against MBP. According to Rav Tendler, apparently, the only proper and ensurable safety precaution is not doing MBP. But yes, I think in principle your last post says it perfectly.
I meant R’ Tendler
Simcha613: To be consistent, if some Rabbonim believed an Eruv was 100% pasul and it is 100% pure Chillul Shabbos (a capital crime) to carry in that area, you would similarly understand they wouldn’t say eilu v’eilu. And you would understand if they would actively stop other Jews from carrying in the area on Shabbos (a capital offense). Correct?
Rabbi Tendler believes that for thousands of years, from Chazal on, Jews have (unknowingly of course) been practicing unsafe Bris Milah that has been causing thousands of deaths to Jewish babies over the thousands of years?
when the most qualified halachic decisors, ie. the current gedolim and RYs (who arent quite as off the ball as youd think) decide that the mohalim are killing children, they will react accordingly. till then, we wont change.
Toi – with all due respect to RY’s, leave them out of such a question. And there are plenty of chashuve accepted mohalim who don’t do it.
“with all due respect to RY’s, leave them out of such a question”..
This looks like it’s becoming to look like another filthy site I ran from. We should leave Roshei Yeshivos out of Halachah shaalos, and instead have anonymous dass chamorim rule. Seems like Moshiach’s right around the corner.
??? ???? ???? ????. A dog will run ahead of it’s master, thinking, portraying for all that it is the boss, it is the one leading it’s master! Only at the crossroads does it stop, he is forced to concede, it’s master will show him which is the proper path.
ZK – ranting is a very good way of making a point, thanks.
Klal Yisrael is zoche to have many great Poskim. If you consider them chamorim, sorry. Someone who is not extremely knowledgable in Halachah should not be sharing psak with the wide tzibur, despite being the head of a Torah institution. We shall obviously not begin to discuss which R”Y is qualified and who is not.
Logic
Why leave out the RY’S? Don’t they have das Torah? Should we only listen to the rabblerousers?
lgician- im assuming your post needs clarification. care to?
This issue needs to be looked into by a panel. The panel should consist of 2 Poskim, 2 Mohelim & 1 infectious disease expert (not necessarily a MD). Whatever their recommendations are should be followed by e/o who is Frum. Noone can say right now what to do and claim that this is Daas Torah. Daas Torah can only be based on the Mitzious which is Not fully known right now.
A person who has Yiras Shomayim will wait to find out what the truth is. People arguing back and forth remind me of the Shaitel issue before it was clarified.
Logician:
I chas v’sholom didn’t mean to slight anyone, more so an accomplished posek. I’m just saying that – sha’alos should be handled by acknowledged poskim – not anonymous dass baal habatim posters such as us (if you are a posek, kindly state so, I’ll defer to you too)
zees- those of us who base our opinions on what we are taught by leading RYs and poskim are not called baalebatim. the guys with personal agendas are. we need not be poskim to have a torah view on a subject.
I hear you.
Yes, the Mishnah says that metzitzah is a necessary part of milah. Not because it’s part of the milah itself, but for the safety of the child. It also says putting cumin powder on the wound is a necessary part. Why don’t we still do that?
The Chasam Sofer was presented with a case where some children had become sick with sores. The Chasam Sofer said that just as cumin is no longer used because better methods were found to protect the baby, so too metzitzah could change if a better method is found. He says that it is not a part of the actual mitzvah, it is only to protect the child, and we want to use the best possible means to protect the child.
Feif: Don’t makeup a Chasam Sofer. He says nothing of that sort. You put those words in his mouth. He once gave someone a heter, due to extenuating circumstances, to not do it b’peh. It was only applicable to that situation, as the CS’s talmid muvhik, the Maharam Schick, writes.
Derech: you’re incorrect. I read the full letter of the Chasam Sofer regarding this. He says that metzitzah is not an actual part of the bris. He proves it by saying that someone who had a bris without metzitzah was allowed to eat from the korbon Pesach, a kohen without it could eat terumah, etc.
OK, so the chassam sofer says that. So what?
Nobody is arguing that your practice (and my practice, as it happens) of not doing metzitza b’peh is illegitimate. We’re just saying that other people’s practice of doing metzitza b’peh is legitimate.
There are other opinions besides the chassam sofer. You can’t say an opinion is illegitimate because of the chassam sofer.
I trust that their rabbonim are acting in good faith, and are basing their decisions on the torah. And that’s enough for me.
Feif,
Either way, it’s not relevant today. as Derech wrote, Maharam Schick writes that it was a one time deal.
The Chasam Sofer clearly held from MBP. He once gave someone a heter to not do it due to extenuating circumstances. And as his talmid muvhik, the Maharam Schick, writes that was a one-time heter.
Feif Un -“Derech: you’re incorrect. I read the full letter of the Chasam Sofer regarding this. He says that metzitzah is not an actual part of the bris. He proves it by saying that someone who had a bris without metzitzah was allowed to eat from the korbon Pesach, a kohen without it could eat terumah, etc.”
I believe you even though you didn’t post the Mekor of where this is. Now if the panel that must be convened comes out that it shouldn’t be done – it wouldn’t be a precedent in Halacha. So far I haven’t seen anything that says Metzitza B’peh is dangerous except for some people saying they know cases of infants coming down with HSV. And what some Gov. agencies have said so far means nothing. They must print these findings like everything in medicine and it has to be peer reviewed. There are rules regarding medical practice and nothing so far has said one way or another. What are the levels of knowledge of training of these personell in these agencies who decided the cause of these infants disease, if they actually decided this? What scientific proof did they use to determine this?
People will believe anything as long as some supposed scientist claims it to be. Remember the guy who claimed that Autism is caused by immunizations?
Health: the letter is written over in full in Sefer Bris Avraham HaKohen, by R’ Rami Cohen. R’ Cohen was the mohel at my son’s bris, and he gave me a copy of the sefer as a gift. My Rosh Yeshiva told me that R’ Chaim Kanievsky recommends this sefer to people who want to become a mohel. He said it’s the best sefer out today that goes through all the halachos of milah. My Rosh Yeshiva was the sandek, and also received a copy of the sefer from R’ Cohen – he was most appreciative!
I don’t remember exactly what page it’s on, but I looked it up last night and put a paper clip on it so I can find it easily again.
Rav Chaim Kanievsky said that metzitza b’peh must be maintained.
I never saw the Chassam Sofer inside but I once heard a shiur about metzitzah bapeh and this Chassam Sofer was brought down. The way it was explained is that when the Chassam Sofer heard that it might be a sakanah, he said that metzitzah bapeh shouldn’t (or doesn’t have to- I forget which) be done because it was only instituted to protect against sakanah and was never an ikar part of the bris. But when he heard that the person who asked the question was actually a reform Jew who just wanted an opening to mock, denigrate, and eliminate this tradition which to him seemed archaic and backwards, he was chozer and said it must be done (I assume he meant unless you know for sure it’s a sakanah).
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