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August 16, 2022 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #2115665KuvultParticipant
Reb Eliezer,
I’m pretty sure it was Rav Schwab who said it when he was a Ruv in Baltimore.August 16, 2022 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #2115666KuvultParticipantThere’s a story told by Rav Schwab’s son. He was a Yeshiva guy. Rav Schwab was the Ruv of a hardcore Yekke Shul. The Minhag in the Shul was to wear their hats for Musaf. The son being Yeshivish put his Tallis over his head. His father called him over and said, “Look around what everyone else is doing. Why do you want to be different then them? Are you trying to act like your better than them?” The son learned an important lesson and put on his hat. Sometimes fitting with the rest of the crowd overrides your personal preference.
August 16, 2022 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #2115682ujmParticipantKuvult, it’s a Halacha to follow that minhagim of the community you’re in, while you’re there.
August 16, 2022 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #2115683ujmParticipantKuvult, it’s a Halacha to follow that minhagim of the community you’re in, while you’re there.
August 16, 2022 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #21157071Participantdefine community
August 16, 2022 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #2115743Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant1, If you are in a minyan you need to do what they do publicly. You can daven your nusach quietly or do things in other places. Say you wear tefilin on chol hamoed and they don’t, do you wear them at home… Other way around, you may get away being without a tefilin, I think
August 16, 2022 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #2115748KuvultParticipant1,
Community=Kehilla
We lost the Kehilla when the Jews in Europe were emancipated. The (Coercive) Kehillas of the past had real power. The taxed you, handled most court cases, told you where to Daven, told you where your kids go to school, told you where you must buy your meat, you had to buy your Mezuzahs and Tefillin from the Kehilla Sofer (whether you thought he was a good Sofer or not). They told you the Kehilla minhagim & you were required to keep them. In other words there was no I dont like the Shul so I’ll open a Shteibel or I dont like the school so I’ll open my own. But Jews accepted it as part of Jewish life. If a Jew lived in a Kehilla where they didn’t put on Tefillin on Chol Hamoed & they moved to a Kehilla that did they accepted the change instead of fighting it. The Kehilla governing body could fine or even jail you for not following the rules. Today no Kehillas exist. The closest thing we have to a Kehilla today are Kiryas Joel and New Square but they don’t have anything like the power the Coercive Kehilla had.August 16, 2022 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #2115803ujmParticipantKehilos having the power of coercion is a positive and proper arrangement and how things were done throughout Jewish history, until relatively recently.
Kehilos still Halachicly exist today, even if they lack the secular coercive power.
August 16, 2022 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #2115815KuvultParticipantUJM,
That’s why I referred to the Kehilla of old as the Coercive Kehilla.August 16, 2022 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #2115812Reb EliezerParticipantWe, the one’s that put tefilin on chal hamoad do it separately in the weiber’s shul until we taking it off and merge.
August 16, 2022 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #21158471ParticipantThere’s no kehila of baltimore that says not to wear a tallis over your head for Mussaf.
August 17, 2022 10:06 am at 10:06 am #2115920KuvultParticipant1,
Rav Schwab left Baltimore in 1958 to take over for Rav Breuer so it was before then. If you know Baltimore history you know Shearith Israel (Glen Ave Shul) was a strict Yekke Shul. When the older Yekkes weren’t being replaced by their children the Shul to keep from dying respectfully and sensitively switched to a Yeshiva type Shul which B”H is full with young adults and children.August 17, 2022 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #2115986AviraDeArahParticipantI visited Baltimore a few times and davened in the glen avenue shul – it’s the first shul I’ve been to where the place for the shat”z is lowered, and (if i remember right) there’s no mezuzah. I really like the feel of davening in a place that is so tied to an old mesorah.
August 17, 2022 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2116059KuvultParticipantIt’s Mesorah goes back to 1851! It’s one of the few Shuls where being strictly Frum was a requirement for full membership. Rabbi Avraham Rice (the 1st Ruv in America) in 1849 resigned from his Shul because they were pushing for Reforms. In 1851 he started his own strictly Frum Minyan which later became Shearith Israel. So your talking some serious history here. A strictly Frum Shul that was around from before the Civil War.
August 17, 2022 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #2116096ujmParticipantWasn’t the Spanish-Portuguese Sheriath Israel in New York City, which I believe existed from pre-revolutionary times, also strictly frum?
August 17, 2022 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #2116137KuvultParticipantI only know the Baltimore one but I there are older Shuls around. Is the NY one still around?
August 17, 2022 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #2116195ujmParticipantYes, the New York one is still around. Opened in the 1700s, I believe. It is Sephardic.
August 17, 2022 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #2116208Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantjust realize that 1851 is pretty recent in Jewish history. America is a recent settlement, all these new “traditions” are really chadash. For example, some say that they, or their minhagim are “yeshivish”. What does that even mean?! I understand Sepahrdi, or Teimieni, or Yekke, or Litivishe – these are hundreds/1000+ years, but “yeshivish”? Was your great-great-grandfather getting his minhag GrA at Volozhin yeshiva?! There were 400 students there, so not very likely.
August 17, 2022 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2116224KuvultParticipantAlways,
At Americas founding there were approx 2,500 Jews. In 1,840 there were 15,000. So pre the German Jewish immigration there wasn’t much in terms of American-Jewish history or culture.August 18, 2022 7:39 am at 7:39 am #2116265Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantKuvult, yes, that is what I am saying – a lot of “norms” of American Jewish society are pretty new. You walk in EY or Europe or China and every stone cave is 1000 year old. In US, a 400-old University is an esteemed one. I read about some American suspiciously inquiring some scholarly office in England – “how long are you in business? ” – “800 years” ..
Also, the country was small. At the founding, there were, I think, 3 mln people and the founders were writingly bravely expecting that there could be even 30 mln in the future! Also, early Jewish citizens in NY and RI were pretty distinguished Sephardim, not chopped liver so to speak.
August 18, 2022 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2116505KuvultParticipantYes. In the early 1800’s in Baltimore there were a few high profile Jews but no organized community. The few families might get together occasionally for a holiday but that was it. There were no Jewish institutions (besides a tiny cemetery). The first Shul in Maryland was dedicated in 1845. So yes, we definitely got a late start in America & our “American Mesorah” really doesn’t go back very far.
August 18, 2022 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2116515KuvultParticipantAlways,
You have to remember Judaism looked very different back then. Rabbi Abraham Rice was the first (& for a while) only real Frum Rabbi in America. This what he wrote from Baltimore in the 1840’s to his Rebbe in Germany. A very sad description indeed.
“I dwell in complete isolation (obscurity) without a teacher or a companion in this land whose atmosphere is not conducive to wisdom; all religious questions (shaalos) are brought to me for solution. I have to carry the full load on my shoulders and have to assume the authority to render decisions in Halachic questions in both private and public matters.
And one more thing I wish to disclose to you my revered master and teacher … and my soul weepeth in the dark on account of it, namely, that the character of religious life in this land is on the lowest level; most of the people are eating non-kosher food, are violating the Shabbos in public … and there are thousands who have been assimilated among the non-Jewish population, and have married non-Jewish women. Under these circumstances, my mind is perplexed and I wonder whether a Jew may live in a land such as this.”August 18, 2022 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #2116600Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantIronically Americans in general are more religious than in other comparable countries. Somehow freedom to choose created more viable religions …
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