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anon:
Even with the minority of carriers that provide that detail, it is not complete. If the caller blocked their phone #, in the majority of times the number will not appear on the itemized statement. Have you never seen an incoming call on your bill that lacked a number? I don’t think you – or anyone – can make such a claim. (And this is in addition to the ingenuity of the youth I alluded to previously, that will enable them to take counter measures to even normal blocking and itemization.)
“parents can call up and ask att/verizon/sprint/tmobile ect to take texting off and 5 sec later the kid could call and put it right back on and parents who dont analiza the bill might not notice”
I don’t knwo what plan you are on, but Verizon and AT&T do not allow anyone to make changes to my phone plan unless I personally make those changes. They ask me a pre-arranged secret question to which only I know the answer, to verify that it is I who am speaking with them. My kids would not know that information, as I picked something that I have never told them (like the name of my third grade teacher). I am sure other phone plans would arrnage such a thing so as to avoid kids changing the plans to include nonacceptable features. And a parent who does not check out the phone bills, is negligent even for himself or herself. What if there are errors?
Ujm:
What you say about children is correct. However, it proves too much. If children are astute enough to get around blocks on phones, what makes you think they aren’t astute enough to get into the same trouble they would have gotten into with the phone anyway?
Brooklyn19:
I don’t know the types of friends you keep, but in my experience, talking (and even hanging out) does not necessarily lead to touching. If the inclination to do that is there, forbidding them to talk to members of the opposite gender (while you’re looking anyway) is not going to stop them. I would rather teach my children how to handle the situation than shelter them from it completely. As I said before, shelter them completely and they’ll have no idea what to do when they are on their own in the situation – which can end up WAY worse.
Walking on the street could “destroy” your child’s soul – do we keep them locked indoors? It’s the mass hysteria that a cell phone is a sure way to doom your child to hell that is the problem.
ujm – kids who are looking for ways to make trouble in any form do not need a cell phone to enable them to do so.
Ujm,
If your kid wants a phone they will get it anyway you can get pre paid phones at just about any electronic store you might as well have some idea what they are doing and get them one. Thats the reality
ujm,
I wasn’t making a general claim; I was just describing my own experience. My cell phone bill lists the originating number for every call I receive. I’ve don’t take blocked calls on my cell phone (I don’t think I actually get any) so I’d never be charged for these. Thanks for sharing your experience.
1: Why does a mesivta bachur need a cell phone? Who does he have to call? When?
2: It is EASY to have texting turned off on a plan and very difficult to get turned back on. Same with web access. Just because the phone is enabled with the technology it does not mean that all plans MUST allow the service. By default they do, because the average consumer wnats these features. In the event you dont want them, they can be turned off at the network level and has been stated, is pretty difficult to turn back on. Of course, if your son pays for his own plan and is listed as the owner and he is the one who does all the speaking with customer service, all bets are off.
3: Believe it or not, payphones work just as well. You can carry change or a prepaid calling card foe those occassions a phone call is necessary. I have a hard time believing a yeshiva office would not let a bachur use the phone it there was a legitimate reason for it. If he was in the street, there are payphones around. Unless you are in a horrible neighborhood where these things tend to be vandalized, you should have no such problems. Why would a bachur be in such a neighborhood?
I am really outside to this discussion, but I have a question that I think everyone who has something to say about this knows the answer to. I have no hidden agenda behind this question:
Why does a teenager need portable voice calling? Obviously if one does need it one should have a cell phone, but who does? Is it just the need to have gadgetry or is there actually some reason why a teenager has to be available to callers every second of every day?
(I am quite a bit older than the people we are discussing and I have a cell phone, but rarely use it. I spend most of my day in arm’s reach of a landline and I am not important enough that anyone will miss not being able to reach me during my 20 minutes at Mincha or the like.)
Squeak & jphone,
They dont need it
however this is not the point as if they want it chances are if they are the type to do things with it behind your back they will get it without you as there are pre paid phones available at just about any electronic store for very cheap.
you might as well get it for them if you can afford it and at least have some knowledge as to what they are doing by looking at the bill ect.
A few points:
1) How hard is it for a kid to find out his parent’s social security numbers? Not very. And with that they have unlimited access.
4) Very nice that you look at the bill every month. But like I already said, if your child activates something without your knowledge, EVEN if you check it every month, you’re already too late. The goal is to prevent; not to threaten or punish.
5) Many things can destroy a child. Some things we could control, and some we can’t. Parents have to do their best.
illini07:
my cousin went to seminary in Israel, in her seminary – it was MANDATORY to have texting in everyone’s cell (b/c in case of danger, etc). she told me that some other seminaries they WEREN’T even allowed to have texting in their phones but the students went behind the school’s back and actually got texting back onto their phones. Some of their parents were aware of this.
brooklyn19, I’m not talking about fifth graders. Also, I’ve never heard of a way to block anything from appearing on the monthly bill, and I’d assume that most teenagers wouldn’t sacrifice their phones for a few days of internet access.
we don’t assume here! maybe someone’s kid is stupid enough to do it! (my kid would be smarter :-)) or maybe it’ll happen by accident. my point is, whatever the reason, after the effect there’s not much a parent could do.
mw13, as mentioned above, INCOMING callers can block their ID. And the parent could very well be unaware of who is calling their child.
no but joseph, they forgot that it’s POSSIBLE to talk on a phone. the only issues that matter to them are internet and texting. (i’m not even so sure about that)
Thats part of the problem. The TALKING (voice calling) even without the other extras (internet, texting) can itself be a major impediment and cause of anguish. Who knows who the child is getting calls from?
i must say that they’re right in saying that texting and internet are worse than talking. not that i’m condoning talking. it’s terrible. but there are still things poeple would say through texting that they wouldn’t say aloud. vehamevin yavin.
Brooklyn:
I used talking to girls as an illustrative example, so I don’t want this to turn into a re-hash of that discussion which has been had several times over on YWN. It suffices to say that we have two different approaches and worldviews to the issue. It’s only collaterally related anyway.
As far as social security numbers, I would hope that it is extremely difficult for a child to find out their parent’s social security number. Nobody should ever have access to that number but yourself. There is no good reason for a child to have that information, and if you keep your social security card locked up (as you should), they won’t really have any way to find out.
Texting and internet access are services for which you are billed. I would find it hard to believe that any carrier would allow activation of those services without speaking to customer service/billing, or logging into the account online – something to verify authorization. The fact that kids do have phones, and the risk of theft or loss of the phone should lead to no other conclusion. I know that you can’t activate either service on my carrier without express authorization.
Finally, you say that to give a teenager the tools to mess up is asking too much. First, the teenagers already have the tools – they have their autonomy and brains. Besides, isolating your child from every instrument which may cause error is to ensure that your child does not grow, mature, and learn how to be a functional adult. Who is going to shield them when they are adults? If they have been shielded their entire lives, when it comes to the point where they are thrown into the real world, they won’t know how to control themselves, let alone their own children. Learning how to control ones’ self does not come automatically with age – it comes from experience. By eliminating experience, you severely harm the child’s chances of being balanced as an adult. Education and moderation is a better way – sure, a kid will probably mess up. But in the end, it’s worth it to have a child mess up once or twice in the learning process, then end up in a downward spiral of mistakes because they never got the chance to learn.
That being said, there is obviously an appropriate age at which one should be learning. I wouldn’t give my fifth-grader a phone, or even consider it. teenagers, however, are a stone’s throw away from being on their own in the real world, by which point they will have had to learn or else they will be in danger of maladjustment and constant mistake.
I like the fact that we all have a cell phone and can be easily reached, I feel that it is almost a need nowadays, we are always in touch. Of course, we all have Kosher phones (purely voice). I explained to the boys that were not so eager about giving up camera phones, that just as we eat Kosher, and we dress Kosher etc. we have Kosher phones. It was a very exciting day in my house when we all switched over to Kosher phones. Even my husband got a Kosher phone! I almost felt like a Ba’alas Teshuva kashering her kitchen!
Now the family agrees with me that it was a great move, and everyone got used to it. I am very proud to have Kosher phone.
Please do not tease anyone with a Kosher phone, hope one day u will get one too!
Mrs. Beautiful- as I type, I am snapping my blackberry…
Good 4 U!
illini07
you’re wrong. that’s such a convoluted way of thinking. i just hope for your sake (and your kids’) that you don’t get burnt.
and just for the record:
~ i know the last 4 digets of both my parents’ SS numbers. it came up once when my mother was making a call and i remember them both.
~ i put text messaging on my phone the day i got it. (i’m not so bad – i did have permission – but my point is that i was able to activate it on my own.)
~ and i personally activated internet on my phone. without any info. all you do is press the button.
apparently there’s another problem: parents don’t even KNOW half the technology that their kids know. at least be up to date!
Brooklyn19,
“oh an btw: for all you naive people: there are a million ways to go about unblocking the internet. and i figured out how to do it within 30 after i tried.”
from my experience, a quality filter, such as kosher net or what is available in Israel called Rimon, are quite effective and provide a minimum amount of protection which you cannot avoid because it is downloaded onto the computer.
on phones? and here in america? and there’s no way to un-block it?
sure, the internet is currently blocked on my phone. but i know that i could undo it at any given moment. you just have to know how – and it’s not that difficult to figure out.
Lets be realistic. A child can rob his/her parents blind if they really wanted to. Do we believe our children would stoop to such levels?
Yes, it is possible to overhear (I wont say eavesdrop) a conversation. It is possible to go through someones drawers while they are sleeping. Anything is possible. Do we think so poorly of our own children? 🙂
Brooklyn19:
Thanks for your input on my parenting philosophy, but I disagree. Your assessment that I’m “wrong” and have a “convoluted way of thinking” in no way address the merits of my point. They are conclusory statements which don’t disprove a thing I said.
It seems that your mother was not careful enough in protecting her social security number. The only people who know mine are my parents, and that is because they held on to my social security card until I was old enough to care for it myself.
I find it hard to believe that you were able to activate internet in that way. Chances are, the service plan included internet, and you simply enabled the feature on the phone itself. I have had phones where that was the case.
Finally, don’t be so sure that parents don’t know all the same technology. Many could talk circles around any teenager, your wise self included.
you’re forgetting that i was a teen at risk. or past the “at risk” stage. (what’s that called?!?!) my parents are far from stupid. they’re just sincere. probably too much. i’m not trying to change your mind. (partially cuz i know i can’t) i just want you to be aware. running away from facts won’t get you anywhere. and trying to disprove a FACT is just stupid. facts are what they are. this is not merely an opinion.
look at the whole picture: in general, kids can do a lot of dangerous things with a phone. compare the pros and cons. you thinks there are no cons? good for you! you think the pros outweigh the cons? great. just realize you may be forced to change your opinion on that one. in my opinion (and this is an OPINION!) there are no pros in the world that could possibly outweigh the cons in this situation. but maybe i feel that way because i was burnt by it.
just btw – look back at the thread. who agrees with most of what i’m saying? the teenagers, of course! we could lie and sweep all the issues under the carpet. but that’s not the truth. and this anonymous site allows me to speak the truth.
i have nothing more to say to you. take my advice or leave it.
Brooklyn:
Dear, please tell me what *facts* you have presented? A majority of your statements comes from personal experience and that which you’ve seen in your interactions with your peers. This does not establish fact. This establishes your proclivity and that of your friends. Certainly not a representative sample of teenagers generally.
I do believe that at the teenage (not necessarily at 13, let’s just say 16), the pros outweigh the cons. I think you forget that everyone was a teenager at some point – we’re not unfamiliar with the state of mind…
It’s clear that you haven’t fully left your teen years behind from your last sentence. You seem less interested in discussion and intellectual debate than proclaiming your experiences as undeniable facts of life.
When I want parenting advice, I go to my parents, who have “been there, done that.”
Brooklyn, I’m 26 so I’m not too far from the “teenage” stage. I remember how easy it was to get drugs and alcohol…I know how easy it is to fall into traps. BUT! sheltering your teenagers until you marry them off does nothing to teach them how to live.
My mother followed Illini’s parenting philosophy (with the exception of her SS# – for various reasons, everyone in my immediate family know all our SS# and pertinent information). My mother knew her children and knew that she could trust us. How did she know that? Because she slowly gave us more and more responsibility and we proved ourselves. This was all going on from the time we were little kids.
For the most part, my mother didnt have that many rules. Her basic rules were that she had to know where I was going, approximately when I was going to be home and who I was with. She also allowed me to hang out in coed situations so long as I didnt date anyone exclusively. She allowed me full access to the liquor cabinet. For the most part, I hung out with girls, didnt drink and never did anything bad.
Why? Because I had my mothers trust and I didnt want to lose it. Her trust was more important to me than any guy, or any drugs or any bad thing. She provided me with kosher outlets (for example, when I wanted to have boys over that was fine, but with some basic rules) and nothing bad happened. I was shomeret negiah, usually home at a normal hour, hanging out with my friends.
The worst thing I did as a teenager: my friend had her permit (no license) and she picked me up. My mother mentioned how nice it was that my friend got her license and I didnt respond. Later, I fessed up to my mother because I felt so guilty. She didnt punish me because she understood that I made a mistake and learned from it all by myself.
Does this parenting style work for every child? NO, but thats where parenting comes in. If your kid cant handle the freedom, dont give it to them.
I just want to add that many girls I know get married at 18 and basically right out of high school. So at 17 (6 months before they get married), they are not able to handle responsibility but then just 6 months later they can handle marriage? I find that hard to believe.
i believe i made myself very clear. if you want to ignore me, go ahead. but don’t EVER say you weren’t warned. not in this world and not in the next.
SJS – not every kid faces the same problems. i can guarantee though, that any kid who does, is not ready to get married by 18. not saying it never happens, but plenty of people do things they shouldn’t.
Brooklyn19,
I thought you were refering to computers….btw, i hope your parents dont read this forum..it would probably come as a big surprise.
SJSinNYC,
from what you write about your self, you are obviously wrre not the teenager that brooklyn19 is describing as needing to be protected…
Hak:
The problem is that brooklyn19 doesn’t trust parents to decide when a child needs protection – that’s HER area of expertise.
Brooklyn:
Pardon me if I don’t accept your opinion as expertise. You are surely a very confident young woman, but I think your unwillingness to consider other opinions and points of view gets in your way of reaching an educated, intelligent position. I have tried my best to explain my position, and you simply reply that I am wrong, that you know about teenagers, and that I don’t. Again, my apologies if that isn’t the most convincing argument I’ve ever heard.
illni07,
Brooklyn 19 is right in that you’r kids can find out your social security number if they want to, unless you keep the card locked up in a safe and never in your wallet or pocketbook and never say it, and even so there are probably ways i cant think of right now to find it out.
Jphone,
you would be shocked at the type of things kids will do especialy if under peer pressure for whatever reason.
The only thing is that even easier then all that (probably) is for a teen to just walk into a store and get a pre paid phone themselves and not tell there parents anything about it! so it is probably better just to get one for your kid and at least have some control over it unless you are really sure he wont get one himself.
i dont think anyone can mae a blanket statement for all teenagers with regard to having phones i think basically you have to know your kid (which you should anyway by the time they’re a teen) give him/her many positive influences of interest to them and pray
000646: I actually do keep my SS card in a safe. I was under the assumption that most keep their card protected, if not locked up.
yeshivishHak: don’t worry my mom doesn’t know where the “on” button is on a computer.
illini07: good luck
000646: wow we finally agree on something!
illni07,
You would also have to NEVER leave the key anywere your kid could get to it (even for a few minutes and even when you are sleeping or out of the house) if you keep it locked up at all times, & if you take it somwere for whatever reason you can never leave your pocketbook out of your sight for even a moment… and these are not even creative ways of getting hold of it!!
bkitzur its nearly impossable to make sure your kids will never get access to it
Brooklyn 19,
COOL!! 🙂
i actually think bklyn19 has reacted pretty admirably considering the circumstances i.e. being bashed by everyone here, and no, im not saying this cuz im a teenager.
000646:
Safe is a biometric safe. The override keys are in a safe deposit box. Theoretically, you are correct. Once in a blue moon I need my card and remove it, but I am always very careful to put it back in as soon as I return home. The chances of anyone getting a hold of it are slim to none. I do see your point, as most people probably aren’t as paranoid as I 😉
wait one more question, illini07:
you trust your kids with a lethal weapon, but not with your SS#?? what happened to trust?!??!?!?!?!
BYM:
Disagreement is not bashing. I tried my very best to carry on a respectful and intelligent dialogue, to be met only with “you’re wrong because I say so.” Eventually there comes a point where it is pointless because one side is interested only in talking, rather than listening.
Brooklyn:
First, a cell phone is not a lethal weapon. Let’s not get hyperbolic here.
Second, there is no legitimate reason that my children would need to have my social security card. Ever. Faulty comparison.
yeah but why is it under lock-and-key at every single moment? you don’t TRUST them to be alone for even a moment?!
and correct me if i’m wrong, but i did depict a clear picture. i never said “because i said so.” i just did my best to give you reason to believe me. but like they say in kiruv: proof doesn’t work. it just turns people off. i guess that goes for anything people don’t really want to hear.
Brooklyn:
I keep it under lock and key not because I don’t trust anyone in particular, but because it is prudent to safeguard your SS card from EVERYONE. Anyone who gets hold of your card can wreak havoc on your life.
You gave your personal experience, which-don’t get me wrong-is certainly a valid observational basis. However it does not establish fact. You didn’t “prove” anything but your own personal experiences. I explained why in my more general parenting philosophy, I disagreed, and you basically responded by saying that you were right because of your experience, and that I am wrong and have convoluted thinking. You did not rebut my explanation.
Again, you didn’t “prove” anything. For that matter, neither did I. But I wasn’t making the blanket assertion that a teenager should or shouldn’t have a cell phone, so the onus was not on me to prove anything.
yros,
mesivta bochurim could easily have the internet put back in the phone, however, in a kosher phone even if you call to put on the internet acess will be denied. Go Kosher Phone
well it’s all here. maybe it’ll speak to someone else and help spare their kids.
Thank You brooklyn19. You speak words of wisdom.
glad to hear SOMEONE backs me!
000646, you raise a very valid point. If you buy your kid a cell phone all texting and internet access will show up on the monthly bill. If not, a teenager can simply walk into WalMart and buy a pre-paid phone, call, text, and email whoever he/she wants, and go wherever they want online. I’d choose choice A any day of the week.
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