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@RSO,
“In my line of work I travel often and i have made use of Chabad houses on four continents: North America, South America, Europe and Asia.”
If you think so badly of them and their motives, why would you use them when it’s convenient? I would never go to a conservative temple under any circumstances.
“among yidden who don’t know the difference between a Rabbi who knows halochoh and one who doesn’t. ”
Most Chabad Shluchim aren’t Poskim and don’t claim to be. Although every single one has Semicha Lerabbonus (Yoreh Yoreh). I’m sure you can find a shliach here and there who has made a mistake in Halacha, but to paint 5000 people with the same brush of Am Haratzus? Additionally, most people who frequent Chabad Houses aren’t looking for a competent Rav or Posek to ask their Shaylos too. They’re looking too learn about Yiddishkait, to daven on Shabbos, to hear Shofar on Rosh Hashonah. I hope when you use our Shluchim all over the world you tell them exactly what you think of them, you don’t eat their food since it’s probably not kosher according to you (after all they don’t know Halacha) and you leave them with a nice sized donation for making use of their services even though they weren’t sent to a remote corner of the world to make life comfortable for frum people.edited – keep your tone down…just as you asked of others
@Syag,
Hi there, and thanks for your vote of confidence. Now that you consider me a somewhat balanced Lubavitcher, I’d like to ask you some questions:
“accept that many points being presented go against Torah as we know it, and we have an obligation to say so. ”
I’m quite curious to know which of my beliefs go against the Torah, as I do learn the same Torah as you.“but not one of them has trouble with others being in their own derech. ”
I have no problem with all Yidden being on their own legitimate Derochim and following their respective Rebbeim or Gedolim. I can confidently say that I speak for most Lubavitchers here, and ChabadShlucha as well.“you can expect no less from us.”
I don’t. Please keep following your Gadol, and defending your Derech. I’ll do the same.“And lastly, I have to say that all that I have heard in these explainations have done more damage to my view of lubavitch’s authenticity than any yellow flag waving nutcase who lives on my block.”
It’s quite unfortunate that you have this perception of us, based largely on one womans posts. You have to understand that by nature, women are more emotionally/ spiritually inclined, and often don’t explain themselves the same way men do. I don’t mean to be chauvenistic here, I have much respect for ChabadShlucha who is a very learned woman and kept her cool for a very long time when I definitely wouldn’t have. I do think that she didn’t need to say everything she did, and I also think that she’s quite a rational woman and may have come across as having views that she probably doesn’t. She never insinuated that she thinks everyone must be Lubavitcher Chassidim, and I’m sure she’ll confirm so explicitly.
Thanks for your respectfulness Syag, and I truly hope that you’ll take my word for it on what we believe. I, and all Lubavitchers aren’t shy or embarrassed about our beliefs, and I would never mislead people about them.
@Mods,
Thank you for allowing this discussion to go on, and thank you for keeping me in check.@RSO,
“I asked for a case where this did not involve a public relations coup, as was the case with the son of an Israeli rebbe.”
Very well. There’s a very well known and very large family or Lubavitchers, I won’t name them here, but anyone intimately familiar with Chabad will know whom I referring to. They’re spread out over Canada and American, and have never changed their Levush at all, at the Rebbes request. (Incidentally, their father/ grandfather wrote Rav Moshe Feinsteins Rabbeinu Tams tefilin.)Additionally, in the late 70’s and early 80’s there was a group of Satmer Chassidim who became Lubavitch. (Together with their Rosh Yeshiva) they too didn’t change their Levush.
Now, you need to differentiate between Minhag and Halachic Shita. Levush is (at least in Chabad) considered a Minhag, and changing it is discouraged. Tefilin on the other hand, and how they’re wrapped and their size is Halachic Shita. So if someone chooses to become a Chabad Chossid, he would want to keep the Piskei Dinim of our Poskim, namely the Shulchan Aruch Harav and the Tzemach Tzedek, (as well as Halachic rulings of the other Rebbeim).
I don’t see why a sefardi Lubavitcher wouldn’t eat rice on Pesach as it’s an Ashkenazi / Sefardi thing, not specific to Chabad. I’d assume that those who don’t would like to be like everyone else in their community, and I don’t see why you’d have an issue with that.Hello people,
I’m seeing a lot of important questions here, and if it’s ok with ChabadShlucha I’d like to address a few topics. Unfortunately, there are too many specific comments for me to comment on, but I’ll try my best to discuss what I’ve seen to be the main questions/concerns from non-lubavitchers.
1. “How many Lubavitchers do u believe to be meshichistim?” First I want to define the term “meshichist” as there tends to be a mixture of definitions. For many, meshichist just means believing the Rebbe is Moshiach. For others, and this tends to be the more politicized definition, it means believing the Rebbe is alive, waving flags, perhaps thinking the Rebbe is g-d in a body, etc. Since those additional points are rather complicated and misunderstood, I think it best to stick with the former definition. When phrased the first way, I tend to think most lubavitchers believe this.
2. “If most Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is moshiach why aren’t they running around with flags and pins? And why do most lubavtichers condemn them?” What I’ve found to be the case is that chabadniks generally don’t discount that the Rebbe is moshiach. The question instead is “should it be publicized?”. As I once humorously heard it: Some Lubavitchers wear their pins on the outside.
—Others where them on the inside. As it is, many lubavitchers u tend to meet disagree harshly/softly with the methods of the, let’s call them, “public Meshichists”. Although, there are many that—when alone— tend to party with the meshichistim if they aren’t worried about chilul Lubavitch.3. “Let’s say it’s possible the Rebbe could still be moshiach—why should be entertain an idea made up by the chassidim against the Rebbe’s wishes?”. I cannot stress this enough, but the idea that this belief was not encouraged by the Rebbe or that he gave no positive answers to this effect is a utter falsehood. It’s simply not true. And no matter how many times books or articles about the Rebbe print the same 2-3 stories, there are still dozens of stories and/or sichas which remain inexplicable and allowing these few stories to shape the image of that time is deception at best. They will have u believe that the Rebbe was disgusted with any prospect his being moshiach, and that the radical chassidim took advantage of him when he was sick—seeing what was never there. This is a horrible distortion of the facts. An attempt, perhaps, of saving a certain image but which ended up doing more harm than good. The most obvious failure of this historical revisionism is that it simply doesnt explain the facts. If it’s so out of the question and so against everything the Rebbe ever said, then why is it still persisting. Non-lubavitchers have been trying to understand for decades and it seems more and more mystifying every year. In my opinion, it will remain mystifying if we don’t dispose of this nonsense “radical Lubavitch” theory and start approaching this from a different perspective. Perhaps it’s time to ask “did the Rebbe encourage this? What did he teach? What arent we seeing?”.
4. “What are some of these encouraging answers?” I’ll link them on next message.
5. “What are some things from his edited talks that people think indicate that he thought he was moshiach?” He said Moshiach was revealed in 770 in 1991 and annouced that the time of the Jewish people’s redemption has arrived, he said 770 in crown heights is Gematria “Beis Moshiach” just for kicks in a footnote, he said moshiach is a nasi of chassidus, he said moshiachs name is Menachem Mendel, he said this is the last generation of exile AND the first generation of redemption, he said moshiach WAS moshiach of the generation but was revealed “bChol haTokef”, he quoted the chosom Sofer that Moshiach now knows he’s moshiach, he said with nevuah that “henei zeh moshiach bo”, he said we are the reincarnation of the generation which left mitzrayim, he said the chabad Rebbes correspond to the sefiros which would make the Rebbe the Sefira of Malchus, the Rebbe said we completed all the divine service and all that’s left to do is to receive moshiach, he said moshiach was appointed and we need to accept his malchus in a revealed way, he said moshiach is active in the world now, and he said he is the nasi hador which he connects to moshiach hador which means this would all refer to himself.
6. “Moshiach hador isn’t a halachic concept”. Moshiach hador is a halachic concept. It is brought down in many halachic works and is a very established idea. Nasi hador isn’t necessarily Moshiach hador, but the Rebbe says there is a svara to say this. Most importantly tho, we are chabad. We obviously go with what our Rebbe said. Whether someone wants to say something else isn’t much concern to us. To add tho, the Rebbe had unmatched Gaoness. I’m not saying this cause he’s my Rebbe, it’s just pretty darn obvious. It’s established for all to see. Anyone who is familiar with the gedolim who visited the Rebbe or who wrote him know this. This is a dvar pushut. And as Moshe Feinstein said when he wrote to the Rebbe, it’s not needed to detail his gaoness because the whole world knows already(altho he then goes on to list a few amazing compliments). I only say this because some people need to hear it. Enough mocking Lubavitch.
7. “The Rebbe didn’t do what was needed to be moshiach”. The Rebbe has a lot of chiddushim on the Rambam and one cannot honestly say it is not the case without lookin at the Rebbes Torah on the issue. That is the fair thing to do imo. It’s surprising how many comments are made on chats like these which were already delt with by the Rebbe or where someone took one thing of the Rebbe to make a case against him but ignored another part which addressed it. I’ve seen people try to “outsmart” the Rebbe and, excuse me, but it’s just laughable. Nobody on this website knows more than the Rebbe. That is just a fact. Not David Berger, not Gil student, and not any other person on here who may be harboring feelings of grandeur somehow hoping he will be an Achron one day. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no idea what he’s dealing with. Between Mordechai Eliyahu calling him an Angel of G-d with unmatched gaoness, Moshe Feinstein saying moshiach should come so the Rebbe can teach Torah forever, Joseph Soloveichik saying he is a hidden tzaddik whose holiness we can’t begin to fathom, and the Baba Sali saying he’s fitting to be moshiach and begged to live by the Rebbe, just who is anyone else to demean his opinions with a #DasYachid hashtag? Safe bet: if u find urself correcting the Rebbe—u didn’t understand it. I’m sorry to get so snappy but I don’t know my audience and I know how intense these things can get, and I wanna make sure we are clear on this for those who insist on making machlokes.
8. “Do people think the Rebbe is alive?” There are many lubavitchers who do, yes. This is not to be taken as Elvis under the stairs, but something a lot more complex. Sources in Kabbalah, Gemara, mefarshim, and the Rebbe himself.
@sechelhayashar my husband also didn’t know offhand, so I asked some friends who are buki in nun aleph nun beis, and someone said try nun aleph- tazria metzora. Since I’m just waiting for my challa to rise, I treated myself to look it up, and it’s in ois yud beis.
SeichelHayashar- I read your whole post waiting for the part where you apologize to a hurting bachur for possibly accusing him wrongly of lying. Never came. What a let down.
Moshiachchat-there are halachik issues with cutting and pasting posts from other sites without credit. And if it was your own post from another site, at least fudge it up a bit to reword the questions so that they match ones that were actually posted, and swap the usernames from the other site with local ones. And once you’ve proved yourself disengenuine, try becoming suddenly trustworthy, not a simple task, I can assure you.
@ChabadShlucha,
I looked it up now just before I leave on Mivtzoim, and as I thought I doesn’t say that Moshiach wrote Likkutei Sichos. It says that learning the Torah of the Nossi Hador (his maamarim and Sichos) will help bring Moshiach. (Among many other parts of Torah listed there. Do you really think that so many Lubavitchers would ignore the words of the Rebbe or don’t know any Sichos?
Rather, we prefer not to take them out of context.@RSO,
“Btw I found the story about Reb Boruch Ber and it fits in with all the other stuff. Told by a lubavitcher on a lubavitcher website”
It’s actually told on video by (As far as I know) a non Lubavitcher, in the name of his Rebbi, Rav Shaya Shimanowitz z”l. I quote:
“Our teacher, Reb Shaya Shimonowitz, who was one of the real giants left over from the old Mir Yeshivah in Europe,”
He sure doesn’t sound like a Lubavitcher too me, rather he sounds like a true ehlicher Yid who has no axe to grind on other Yidden, Yireim Ushleimim. I reiterate: Google “Reb Boruch Ber Chabad” and the first result should be titled “The Rebbe goes to Vilna”. If you won’t believe the testimony of a well respected Rabbi in Detroit that he heard from his Rebbi, who will you believe about anything?
Or is this all part of the vast Elders of Lubavitch conspiracy foundation?
Ps, I’m sure that you can contact Rabbi Yosef Krupnik who said this story and verify it with him, unless of course Chabad paid him to make up a story to suit it’s purposes.MoshiachChat,
Based on your take and many others – You claim the Rebbe was a Navi and, somehow had sort of a Nevuah/revelation about the revealing of Moshiach in THIS generation (and that he will be the one) etc.
Well, I will just quote two Rambams and let everyone do the math:
In regards to Mosheach:
הלכות מלכים ומלחמות פרק יא
ט ואם לא הצליח עד כה, או נהרג—בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה, והרי הוא ככל מלכי בית דויד השלמים הכשרים שמתו. ולא העמידו הקדוש ברוך הוא אלא לנסות בו רבים, שנאמר “ומן המשכילים ייכשלו, לצרוף בהן ולברר וללבן—עד עת קץ: כי עוד, למועד”In regards to to Nevuah Sheker:
הלכות יסודי התורה פרק י
ט אבל אם הבטיח על טובה ואמר שיהיה כך וכך, ולא באה הטובה שאמר–בידוע שהוא נביא שקר: שכל דבר טובה שיגזור האל, אפילו על תנאי–אינו חוזר. הא למדת, שבדברי הטובה בלבד ייבחן הנביא.
Well, I guess that Meshichist camp was left with no other choice but to disclaim the fact that he was Nistalek…i.e. Niftar…
@slominer see what I answered Joseph above on the same issue. If you have further questins, Ill be happy to answer
@ChabadShlucha,
Also, if the Rebbe really wanted to tell me that he’s Moshiach, why would he write that it’s a “meayn” of Toroso Shel Moshiach? He would have said that it’s Toroso Shel Moshiach.@Daasyochid That is patently incorrect that no one else considered the Rebbe a tzaddik by this definition except for us. Would you like to hear names? Or are you not really asking but merely protesting?
@Syag,
When someone posts anonymously on Internet forums, there’s no hechrech to believe them. That said, if he is indeed telling the truth,
1. Get out of there ASAP.
2. I wholeheartedly apologise to him for doubting him.Syag: When you said, “that advice really does not apply to you, SH, as you have been respectful,” can I assume you missed the point where he said to DY:
“Your are truly a fine specimen of a misnaged”I have a question regarding the majority of Lubavitchers who believe the Rebbe zt’l is Moshiach…
Why do you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach and the Baal HaTanya is not Moshiach? And that the Baal Shem Tov is not Moshiach. And the Chofetz Chaim cannot be Moshiach. And that there’s no way that the Chasam Sofer is Moshiach. Or that the Rebbe is more likely to be Moshiach than Rabbeinu Tam is likely to be Moshiach. And that it is silly to believe that Rashi is Moshiach. And that Dovid HaMelech certainly isn’t Moshiach.
(I think you get the gist…)
“Why do you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach and the Baal HaTanya is not Moshiach? And that the Baal Shem Tov is not Moshiach”…
slonimer,
CS already explained that Moshiach clearly has to come from the “Dor Shvii”, which we conveniently still happen to be in, because the Rebbe hasn’t come yet. Whew, I’m still dizzy from all that circular logic!
After reading all of her very polite, well-formulated and knowledgeable posts on this topic, I am more horrified than ever at the warped mental state that Chabad has descended into. Yes, their outreach is unparalleled and truly done with misiras nefesh. But to read that most of them are infected to varying degrees with these sick delusions that the Rebbe, who (yes, deal with it) passed away in 1994, is still Moshiach, that’s literally nauseating!
Rso,
“Chabadshlucha wrote: “Re olam habo: there’s a story of a chossid who entered into yechidus…
(conclusion of story) But, the chossid continues, I would never exchange my gehennom for their gan Eden.”(I wonder whether I will ever get used to this story and fail to get angry at the implication…)
I know chassidim of all types and I have cousins who belong to Satmar, Vizhnitz, Belz …etc”
In defense of CShlucha – who is just repeating a story that has circulated over 150 years ago. The story has much of a deeper meaning than how you understood it and, as I have pointed out, it was said in Kotzk as well (perhaps with a little diff twist ).
If you would really understand what the differences of how Kotzk chassidim and to some degree Chabad was (note, WAS) – what they stood for, what and how they utilized their Rebbe, what the Rebbe demanded from them, (compared to generally others) then the story really refelects the essence and core of their beliefs and philosophy.
Unlike other Chasidus – if you came to the Rebbe with any Gashmiyus bracha requests, you were told to find a diff Rebbe – more than once did the Kotzker say: “what am I? a “doctor” ? All I want is a couple of Chassidim than I can go out and shout on top of the rooftops ‘Hashem Hu Elokim”!That is basically the message of the story.
on the same note, I once read that the Tzemach Tzedek (or vice versa) sent a message to the Kotzker, Rav ‘Menachem Mendel’ something to the effect “Menachem Mendel” leGzerah Shuvah”…
In any case, all these are absolutely irrelevant nowadays!
ChabadShlucha, I have to say, although a little confused and IMHO taking in too much info, is doing a fine job – despite being “Nushim Kalos” – studying, meaning well, understanding and trying to understand – and some are deep concepts…
All I can say, although I do not agree with many of her posts – you should all be Zocha to have such daughters with the energy , sincerity and enthusiasm and the willing to understand and study…even the “nitty-gritty” stuff.
Have a Gut Shabbos!
*Modified for YWN forum, just looking to get answers for these important questions
The stories of not trading his gehinnom for misnagdims gan eden, or that our trash is better than their gold when it comes to shidduchim( meaning better the worst ubavitcher than the best quality litvishe), and all other bogus pep stories comparing how much “better” chabad is than everyone else, just shows the mindset of these people and quite frankly I can understand why everyone is disgusted by it.And you know what whatever happened in the past happened but lubavitchers will not stop holding a grudge and play the “race” card every chance they get. And it is known that even the Tzemach Tzedek one of the Rebbes in Lubavitch, said that it is a good thing for the misnagdim since they balanced out the situation and without them chassidim wouldve went too far astray and out of control.
@sechelhayashar- You accused me of looking at some site which I have no clue what you are talking about, but anyway everything I say is from personal experience, from hearing people around me, asking questions etc, as I said unfortunately Ive spent a few long years in crown heights. So you cannot fool me with your sugar coating stories and excuses.
Which brings me back to my original point, you said that many people rely on their own shechita, I clearly stated that in my original post, and I said the reason it bothers me with chabad is that they will straight up tell you that only a lubavitcher who learns tanya is a trusted shoichet and knows a kosher shechita. That means that all others are treif in their eyes.
Also you complain about others not eating lubavitch shechita at shluchim? Wow talk about a double standard. You always expect others to follow your minhagim,niggunim,kashrus,and halachos but never chas vsholom the other way around. How many times do I have to repeat that until you will stop denying it? It is a fact and you only strengthen our opinion by confirming that you think that way.
Lastly you mentioned something about a donation that shluchim dont want? Oh believe me you dont know shlichus, they are not looking to do this for free. They need to live and have expenses of course they want and expect donations. And who does chabad go to for donations? Yes you guessed it, to Satmar, to non frums, to sepharadim, and yes to LITVISH communities. Suddenly when it comes to money they dont discriminate. And then you see people complain if outsiders open business in crown heights because they assume that “they wont support chabad moidos”. Need I say more?And chabadshlucha- You menioned the Rebbe “waiving on” the singing of Yechi in the late years.
I specifically mentioned what happens today when they sing Yechi to the Rebbes chair in the MIDDLE of lecha dodi! No i certainly dont think theyd get waived on and they would never even do it in the first place if the Rebbe was standing in front of them. And you dont get my point? “the Rebbe scolded about people looking at him during davening”. You asked how is that the same as singing to him in lecha dodi. Really? Well if they shouldnt look at the Rebbe while davening to Hashem, why would the Rebbe approve them SINGING to the Rebbe in the middle of davening! I was being very specific getting my point across, but as usual you ignore and whitewash what you dont like and focus on what you want.
Why isnt there anyone else in the frum world trying to prove to everyone that they are better? I just dont get it. And no chabadsters, its not because they dont think they are.Regarding ur reading of the Rambam, i should point out a few things. 1. We learn from the Rebbe that the Rambam is very mediek(specific and careful with every word). It says killed not died. And u will notice every time he mentions someone who isn’t moshiach(bar kochba, yoshke, and the laws of a possible person u mentioned) is because they were killed. The part which u quoted afterwards which says he’s “like all the kosher and complete kings of Israel that DIED” can be understood as saying that even tho someone who was killed cannot be moshiach, he should be considered kosher and complete and his name shouldn’t be defamed just because he failed. Rather he’s even like the kings of Israel that didn’t fight wars and tried to be moshiach. Rather he is kosher and whole and even tho people died(since he lost and u might blame him for the deaths of Jews or resulting severe decrees) he is considered whole and kosher. This interpretation takes into account A. That he was wordy with “kosher” and “whole” and B. That he says he is like the kings of the house of David that died instead of a Loshon indicating previous contestants. C. “Killed” “died” and “not succeed”. Just say “if he didn’t succeed” and we would know that if he died or was killed that it was included. Instead he’s much too wordy. In addition, earlier the Rambam said “He and all the Sages of his generation considered him to be the Messianic king until he was killed because of sins. Once he was killed, they realized that he was not the Mashiach.” but he could have switched “Once he was killed..” with”Once he died”.
1B. Another way to look at it is al pi teva. Being killed was singled out by the sages as expressively not promised by the Torah, but there were opinions which held Daniel or David could come min hameism. Perhaps the Rambam considered it possible, but just not technically possible al pi teva. howevwr, if we merit, then we will receive miracles which bring the redeemer from the dead against nature. This interpretation is based on an opinion brought by the sdei chemed that with enough merit we will have moshiach min haneisim. This opinion also matches the format of the Gemara before hand where it considers what would happen if the Jews got the redemption through no merit or through a merit. Moshiach from the dead corresponding with the Jews doing teshuva, moshiach on clouds of heaven, achishena etc. even Berger in his book, while trying to demean the opinion, says that this is technically possible but he didn’t do enough reading. Additionally, the Rebbe says that Rambams laws are lo zachu and that if we merit then all the criteria could happen “bRega Echad”. He said we merited this and more. Anyone holding by such an opinion would blow the Rambam wide open. He could be in the resurrection, fight wars and win instantaneously. My point is not to spell out the Rebbes opinion(the Rebbe personally says we merited a higher level of bitah mixed with acheshina), but to show there are obvious ways of looking at this Rambam in a way that permit moshiach from the dead. It’s not as fridged as u might think. Another example is the son of the holy Ruzhiner who said that a few hundred years ago we would of had to wait 40 years til the redemption, but we merited that techiyas hameisim will happen the same time as moshiach so now his father, the Ruzhiner, can arise and be moshiach. There is also a source of a big chasid who said the Baal Shem tov will be moshiach.
2. First of all the Rebbe said he was ALREADY a navi based on many nevuahs which happened many times before. Things which are in printed in sichas clearly for anyone to see before they happened, and which were published in newspapers. There is a picture of the Rebbe taking an article with the title “yesh navi byisrael” with the Rebbes face on it to the ohel. If u want to challenge the Rebbe is a navi, it is against the Rebbe—not me. And if u think that calling the Rebbe a navi sheker ch’v ch’v G-d save us all by using as ur source a sentence in the Rambam which the Rebbe knew like his name, as well as all of Shas I have to wonder what on earth ur thinking. Before calling a holy gaon with ruach Hakodosh documented on thousands of videos and letters a navi sheker I consider u think over the dirtied up grain of knowledge u have of the Torah vs him. Really think about it. I want to be nice, but I’m not going to play a long with u if u insult such an amazing person. That’s pure hatred. I’ll try to hold myself back next time from showing any hints of disrespect. I want to address ur point, in as much as any of it was sincere. The nevuah of “henei zeh moshiach bo” was not in anyway a false nevuah because it was not saying that moshiach is redeeming everyone right now and ischalta degeulah arrived. There is, as found in many mefarshim, the idea that there is the coming of moshiach as a person and then the actual redemption. The nevuah which is based out of a midrash on shir hashirim means that moshiach the wrist is here and is telling the Jews to prepare for geulah because it’s coming for this generation. And as the mefarshim explain, the geulah with mirror geulah of mitzraim. We saw by moshe that he told pharaoh to let the Jews go and then things got WORSE. We also see that Satan said moshe passed away(in fact the mefarshim on Zohar such as the ohr hachama say that Moshe’s concealment on the mountain resulted in his leaving his body. In a way the Satan was telling the truth). The Rebbe also points out that a Helem v hester of moshiach does not contradict the Rambam so let’s just consider this it shall we. Many places say that the times right before moshiach will be really tough and people will struggle to believe in him. In fact the Rebbe Rashab did an open nevuah(as the Rebbe says) in saying that there will be a time when Jews will scorn the idea of moshiach. Sources say that there is a korach and gang in every generation causing problems for the nasi hador. Gedolim all around are saying moshiach is due any minute, but where is the big test? Who is turning the world over with yiddishkeit? The holy hidden tzaddik (zveil) was once told that the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbes comments about the messiah are uncomforting to him. The tzaddik responded “the secret of moshiach has been given to the Lubavitchers and it is permissible for them to speak about it”. Nobody else yearned and cried and made such a focus on moshiach, wouldn’t u think that that is moshiach? Additionally Rav Heller of crown heights paskened that the Halacha’s of chezkas moshiach are only if we have no other way of knowing, but if moshiach makes a nevuah—which then means we are obligated to listen— then if he says he’s moshiach then we are obligated to believe it. And a good nevuah never goes away.
professor Menachem Friedman of bar ilan in a published a study on chabad history, says the student records of the Rebbe as a student in Berlin, and in Paris state he never graduated and dropped many courses
There is no good reason in the world you shouldn’t suspect the previous so called bochur is a fraud if there are people over here willing to write conspiracies about the rebbe taken straight out of Failed Messiah.com
@moshiach chat, can you please source where the called himself a Navi? Other lubavaitch and knowledgeable people of course can answer
I find it disturbing that one of the examples you brought as mesiras nefesh is not being a loving husband because Hashem comes first?! I believe Hashem gave the mitzvah if oina. Care to explain?
@sechelhayashar because until the world is in a geula state the full depths of Toraso shel Moshiach cannot be revealed, as explained in many places that you can probably quote me. Until then, we can just have a meayn. Hope your mivtzoim went well:)
Lastly, for everyone that is shaking their heads at how we were left without direction CVS, you should all know that the Rebbe definitely knew what was coming and prepared us for it. If you want to know how, we’ll be happy to explain. I’m referring to the sichos of Koach Nissan 5751 and gimmel tammuz sicha (not sure the year but the one about even though it looks like a heelam vhester, it’s really ischalta dgeula) respectively. The chassidim of the time understandably didn’t want to get the message, but we definitely have our path set out for us until Moshiach is revealed to all, iyh this year:)
@whoever felt I was insulting or digging at non lubavitchers
That was completely not my intention. Sometimes it can be hard to balance pride and excitement in my derech without coming across that way, but I have tried. In case I was misunderstood, let me just say I really respect the Satmar for their extra sense of aidelkeit that comes with bring shut off from the world.
I respect Lakewood for their extreme devotion to limud haTorah, and applaud their hard working wives.
I respect the general frum world for their ehrlichkeit…
Yes sometimes my emotions overwhelm my intellect so thanks to the males here for balancing that. I would like to think I add a balance with a woman’s natural tendencies of Bina yeseira, rakus, and excitement (middos) to what my be otherwise a combative, cold logic conversation, but In case that isn’t needed here, I’m happy to bow out and leave this to the learning professionals:):)
One more point: the whole debate is quite silly because it’s kind of a moot point until someone can bring an example of a leader in our generation who can rival the Lubavitcher Rebbe. And before you list names, make sure you know who the Rebbe is and was. If anyone can manage to find another gadol who has as much influence and care for every Jew as the Rebbe did, (and Joseph here if where I disagree and think the Rebbe changed much for the frum world as well, with regards to how they relate to their fellow not yet frum Yidden), then we can really discuss. Until then, even sechel hayashar would agree that no one can really replace the Rebbe as an actual candidate to be Moshiach.
If there will ever be someone who fits that bill, I’m sure the meshichists will sit up and take notice as well, and really, all everyone of us wants is just that Moshiach come asap!
@everyone
A gutte voch! As I said I will have a very busy week, so I’m really glad moshiachchat is helping out. And I’m also really glad sechel hayashar is on this chat so you can all kind of see the prototypes of the deios etc.
A few clarifications etc…
A friend of mine who has been following this thread with interest commented to me that when I contrast Daas with Bina an quote the maamarei chazal of nashim daaton Kalos and Bina yeseira nitna lisha, it’s quite likely that people here don’t know the difference between Chochma, Bina and daas an so I look like I’m insulting myself and all women to boot. So I should probably clarify:
Chochma is like a flash of lightning but intellectually. Like when you snap your fingers and shout, “Oh I got it!” But then then you say give me a minute because you need to concentrate to bring the idea down from a nucleus to a full understanding.
That process of taking the Chochma and developing it into a full understanding by both length and breath is Bina. Men have Bina and women have Bina yeseira. Obviously there can be exceptions but that is the rule.
Daas there are a few aspects. It is the bridge between sechel and middos. It’s about taking the intellectual abstract concept and making it personally relevant so that you can feel for it. Like you can know there is a rubber in the world and he is dangerous. And all the details of how he’s dangerous. That’s Chochma and Bina.
When you realize he’s on your block, that’s Daas. Then you feel the emotions. So this application aspect, women are really good. We love making everything practical.
The aspect we’re weak at is the weighing and contrasting the every possible hypothetical scenario before making a decision for someone else. Like what a Rav has to do. Or what you have to remember when you learn gemara.
Two exceptions: And first of all, doesn’t say we don’t have any Daas, just that it isn’t as strong as a man.
Also, if I have a vested interest, youd better believe my Daas will get really strong. That’s why there are complicated gemaras where the Tannaim and Amoraim who were incredibly brilliant, grappled with the complicated questions that women brought in taharas Hamishpacha. Since there was a vested interest, the women would be able to ask such crazy questions that even the Chachmei hagemara grappled with.
I think this is long, so I’ll continue soon.
@sechelhayashar
I wanted to apologise if I’ve been harsh or insulting. If I came across that way it was completely unintended and the only posts that may have been written that way were coming from a sense of shock that you wouldn’t know something I thought was famous, or that a chossid could express himself in such a manner. Either way it’s actually a sign of high regard, and I apologise in case I came across otherwise.@sechelhayashar and yes thanks for answering questions as well:)
Anyway happened to see a fascinating letter of the Rebbe over Shabbos which I think is quite applicable here. Chelek 11, gimmel tof kuf samech tes.
Some great points I have derived:
1) the Rebbe specifically gave room in his sichos and letters for the viewpoints of meshichists and non meshichists.My opinion is that whatever spurs you to make Moshiach a personal issue and do everything you can with an urgency to bring him is what counts, and that’s why there are these two legitimate directions to take.
2) As with everything in Torah, we need to have naase and then nishma with learning, and especially with learning chassidus which the yetzer hara specifically tries to oppose nowadays. And if something isn’t clear, then daven to be granted the true understanding.
So no matter what opinion you have fellow Lubavitchers, the important thing is to learn and process everything the Rebbe said without preconceived notions, and only afterwards try to make sense of it. We shouldn’t shy away from learning any sicha or any letter or try to twist it into what we think would make sense. Rather, naase vnishma…
Thought this is a beautiful point.
@mammele I don’t have an opinion as those are both important values. I would ask a Rav.@ChabadShlucha,
“Until then, we can just have a meayn. Hope your mivtzoim went well:)”
For the same price, the Rebbe says that the Neviim are Moshiach, because he says it’s also a meayn. (Two or three lines before).“sense of shock that you wouldn’t know something I thought was famous, or that a chossid could express himself in such a manner. ”
When did I express myself in a manner unbecoming for a Chossid? Other than perhaps calling someone here a fine specimen of a misnaged, and for that, I do apologise.
“We shouldn’t shy away from learning any sicha or any letter or try to twist it into what we think would make sense.”
Indeed. I can’t agree more. Please stop twisting the Rebbes holy words.“Either way it’s actually a sign of high regard,”
Thank you. I hold you in high regard too, and your level of learning is Lshem Ulesiferes for Lubavitch.
I respect your opinion, even though I vehemently disagree with it, and I do think that you (and other Lubavitchers on this forum) should think long and hard about the potential damage you can be doing to our reputation, and the Rebbes koved. I have no hard feelings to you, as I know very well where this comes from, but (even leshitoseich) there’s a time and a place for everything. A gute Voch, and we should be zoche to have achdus in Klal Yisroel, mutual respect for one another, regardless of his or her personal opinions.@Kcup,
“professor Menachem Friedman of bar ilan in a published a study on chabad history, says the student records of the Rebbe as a student in Berlin, and in Paris state he never graduated and dropped many courses”If you actually want to know what went on in Paris and Berlin, look it up in The Early Years, by R Boruch Oberlander (a shliach and respected dayan and posek in Hungary) and others.
Professor Friedman and his buddy Samuel Heilman have long discredited themselves as unbiased objective researchers with their blatant anti religious opinions. This isn’t the first book they’ve written, and they hate all frume Yidden, not just Lubavitchers. If you would like to see a rebuttal of their book, Rabbi Chaim Rappaport of London wrote one.@MoshiachChat,
“bar kochba, yoshke, and the laws of a possible person u mentioned) is because they were killed.”
So you think that the only reason why Yoshke can’t be Moshiach is because he’s dead????
I’m sure you didn’t intend it that way, but watch your words.
In general, most of what you wrote here is a true embarrassment to the Rebbe. The Rebbe said about Meshichistim, (certain ones) that they are stabbing him with knives, going against all the Rebbeim until the Baal Shem Tov, and are holding back the Geula from coming. ( This is printed in 5745 if I’m not mistaken. Off hand it might be Simchas Torah or somewhere around there.)This is very hard for me because it’s something that was so close to my heart, and my separation still hurts, but I feel I have to tell it from the inside.
Unlike nearly all others who left, I left Chabad a while after Gimmel Tammuz and not only did I stay frum I remained a chareidi and joined a more mainstream Chassidic group that doesn’t feed me lies.
So what I’m writing is from firsthand knowledge, not hearsay, and I myself believed most or all of it for years.
How much garbage is a person capable of believing before he finally realizes that it is garbage? An almost an unlimited amount, it seems.
You contributors who are not and have never been part of Chabad don’t understand how effective the brainwashing is.
For most outsiders their only encounters with Chabad chassidim is in the way of Chabad houses or shluchim who are trying to get someone to put on tefillin etc, but for those born into in and on the inside it is much more insidious.
And in virtually all cases it is not out of bad intentions. It is because Chabad people DO really care, but their caring is based on personal ego (and that is of course true with nearly all of mine and your interacdtions as well) and false views which are often antithetical to the Torah (I would rather not term it apikorsus).
Chabad is a huge movement, and it is very charismatic and fun to be part of. But when the veneer is stipped away there is very little there. Less than other chassidica and non-chassidic groups have.
Even now it hurts me to say it, so I have to have a break. But if anyone is interested for me to elaborate just let me know and I will force myself.
BurnTFACE: I would be very interested in hearing your expanded thoughts and experience in this subject. You also wrote most who left after Gimmel Tammuz didn’t stay frum. Why is that so, were most who left frum from birth or BTs, and how many left and became not frum? Gut Voch
Burntface, what do you mean lubavaitch has less? Lubavaitch has a tremendous amount of Torah from alter Rebbe to tzemach tzedek, RASHAB, ect. Do you mean Crown Heights?
bar kochba, yoshke, and the laws of a possible person u mentioned) is because they were killed.” So you think that the only reason why Yoshke can’t be Moshiach is because he’s dead???? I’m sure you didn’t intend it that way, but watch your words. In general, most of what you wrote here is a true embarrassment to the Rebbe. The Rebbe said about Meshichistim, (certain ones) that they are stabbing him with knives, going against all the Rebbeim until the Baal Shem Tov, and are holding back the Geula from coming. ( This is printed in 5745 if I’m not mistaken. Off hand it might be Simchas Torah or somewhere around there.)
That is not at all what I meant, and I thought it was pretty clear. I did not say the “only” reason. It was in context of moshiach being killed or dying and I said that the examples of people disqualified were disqualified because of being killed and not dying. I did not say, as it is in yoshkes case, that there aren’t other reasons not relevant to the conversation why someone could be disqualified. It was a very specific comment, but I’m glad I could clarify it.
When it comes to being an “embarrassment” to the Rebbe, I’m going to assume that this remark was coming from a good place which was looking out for the Rebbe and I, in which cause I’m going to politely but strongly disagree. And I hope, in keeping to the same theme as ur first comment, that u will be careful with how u phrase things next time(:p).
Regarding ur specific examples, I’ll start off by pointing out that they are 2 different stories. The “knife to the heart” story was in a private audience altho im unsure of the exact year. The second story was indeed during simchas Torah, mem hey. This was directed towards a Sholom Dovber Volpo. U can type in his name in beis moshiach magazine and see what he says there about it. Some points on that story which are conveniently left out is that 1. Some people celebrated after that sicha because the Rebbe did not deny being moshiach only that such talk would scare people away from learning chassidus. One big name amongst them was Reb Yoel. 2. The very next year the Rebbe said that he doesn’t care if people say that the ” nasi hador is THE moshiach because it’s the truth—nasi hador is moshiach hador”. When the editors came into the Rebbes office and asked him if they should leave this part of the sicha out because of what they heard last year during simchas Torah and how sharply the Rebbe spoke, he told them “what did I say[by the fabrengen just now]? I said I don’t care if they take it literally!”. I also have right next to me(and at my disposal) many positive answers. Dozens. One person, on video, told the Rebbe he hopes to see him as moshiach and the Rebbe smiled very big and tried to say it could be someone else. He was asked again and then the Rebbe replied “Nu, we will see what happens then.” Very very different. I have a video of the Rebbe from the early mems(80’s) encouraging a song “chayolei adoneinu” which says the Rebbe is messiah and he encourages it at multiple moments during the song without as much as a complaint. Worth noting that the Rebbe had similar reactions when people asked him to be Rebbe. But who here is taking his negative reactions and trying to say he never become Rebbe? Nobody. He went as far as to say that he “searched his soul” and being a Rebbe is not shayach to him. He said to one person that he would run away if someone asked him again. In fact it’s the Rebbe himself who made the connection. There is a story where someone went by him in dollars and asked if he is moshiach and he said “well didn’t want to be Rebbe”. It’s an understandable humility, which is explained in chassidus about kings. Kings don’t want to rule and the people have to make him want it by bringing it out of his essence. In fact, the same person yelled at in the simchas Torah sicha (sholom Dovber volpo) told the Rebbe to the affect of we “shouldn’t be ashamed of the halacha” that the Rebbe is clearly the messiah. And do U know what the Rebbe wrote back? Was it “I’m not the messiah and I dispute ur idea that the halacha is such?” No. The Rebbe went on about how telling people the halacha isn’t always a good thing. Like telling someone who doesn’t keep shabbos all the gehinnom he is gonna get. Again, no denial. Besides even pretending no positive answers existed, none of these negative stories can deny the clear realities laid out by the Rebbe in the sichas. Among which are:
We are the last generation of exile AND the first of redemption, this can’t be taken away, the Rebbe is the Moshiach hador of that very generation, Rebbe said moshiach was told he was moshiach according to the halacha laid out by the chosom sofer, moshiachs name is menachem mendel, 770 is gematrias beis moshiach, moshiach is here now fighting and winning the wars of beis dovid, moshiach was revealed and told people the redemption was coming in 770 in 1991, moshiach was appointed by g-d and all that’s left is to receive his kingship in a revealed way, moshiach WAS moshiach of the generation but was revealed in full strength.
Wasn’t 770 an illegal abortion clinic before Lubavitch bought it? Why is the address assigned by the Post Office (#770) made into such a big deal? And why do other cities copy the architecture of the building elsewhere; it was built and used for other purposes before Lubavitch.
@MoshiachChat,
“One big name amongst them was Reb Yoel.”
You conveniently ignore the fact that although Reb Yoel can be credited with kind of inventing Meshichistim, he publicly denounced it after Gimmel Tammuz, and is one of the most vocal critics of Meshichistim.“and I, in which cause I’m going to politely but strongly disagree.”
Do you disagree with the fact (seen quite clearly on this thread) that your ideas (correct or incorrect) are meracheik Yidden from Chassidus? And cause so many to hate Lubavitch? And cause such agmas nefesh to the Rebbe?
You are pouring gasoline on a raging fire with each and every comment you post here. Go learn a sicha, go learn a maamer, open a Gemara. Do something positive. Stop spreading your beliefs here. It does no good. Do you think by you explaining your shittos you’ll convince them? Do you think saying “the Rebbe said so clearly that he’s Moshiach” will make people believe that he is? All you are doing is turning people off Chassidus Chabad. You are fighting with the Rebbe, you are playing with fire!!CS: nice diplomatic answer.
Many years ago Tzivos Hashem kids’ magazine ran some sort of Mitzvah contest for girls. Among the Mitzvos to participate in was candle-lighting. A friend of mine contacted the magazine asking not to have to complete that one, but was answered something to the tune of “The Rebbe (he was still alive and pre-stroke) asks that all girls light a Shabbos candle to increase holiness and fight darkness.” This girl was NOT Lubavitch and was clear about it.
So while researching this topic tonight I came across this (mods please allow) http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1221742/jewish/Do-Young-Girls-Light-Shabbat-and-Holiday-Candles.htm
and found it “interesting” but not believable. For one I’ve never heard of young non-Lubavitch girls lighting Shabbos candles (even from some of these families I know listed in the footnotes) and two, in my family and many others, an additional candle is added by the mother when lecht bentching for each child born into the family. If candle scarcity had effected our original minhagim, wouldn’t this minhag have been lost as well?Sorry, but whatever respect any of us may have had for Chabad is flying out the window the more we realize how they have their own doctrine, whitewash their actions and look down at others that don’t share their beliefs.
(Incidentally, that is why IMHO DY has quietly bowed out of these conversations, you and your fellow Lubavitchers are doing a fine job on your own of digging your hole ever deeper. But the truth needed to come out so I’m glad it did.)
I like how most of this discussion, with some exceptions has been civil and respectful.
A few questions,
The notion of the Rebbe being the 7th Rebbe have any source besides for what the Rebbe said?This question has been asked before, but I will rephrase it. Is it possible for anyone else other than the Rebbe to be Moshiach?
Do you find it hard to understand why most people don’t follow your belief, mainly due to the fact that most of it originates from the Rebbe. While lubabitch considers the Rebbe to be more like a Navi, the rest of the world doesn’t share this belief. Therefore most stuff that explain why the Rebbe was or still is Moshiach, is not taken seriously.
You’ve all brought up the sichos and iggros a few times, can we talk about those? Rav Breuer ZT”L once said that any psak halacha that is not explicitly written down and published is a Horo’as Sho and cannot be relied up except for the specific person it was given to. Most Chassidish, Litvish, and Sephardish Rabbonim hold of this to varying degrees. The most well-known example is probably “Iggros Moshe”, 8 chelakim were edited and compiled by Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L himself and people still rely on them for piskei halachos. One chelek was put out by his children and is still a massive point of controversy as to whether we paskin like it or not.
But by Lubavitch, it’s the complete opposite. Every letter of inspiration written to some Russian apikores, every burp during a speech, every “Mazal Tov” given at a chasuna, is scrutinized and analyzed like it’s Torahs Moshe l’havdil. Furthermore, it’s well known that after he had his stroke, people claimed that Rav Schneerson ZT”L was saying all sorts of things, each one more outlandish than the last. I personally heard from one of his frum doctors that on his deathbed, they had a difficult time dealing with the constant stream of Chabadskers who would put their ears to his lips and run out crying because they took a subconscious mumble to be an admission that he’s Moshiach.
So sure, you can state that certain practices and beliefs are acceptable because the Rebbe said this or that, but don’t get upset when we call it problematic because you chose to interpret his letters in a certain (probably incorrect) way. What he allegedly said in sichos about “Navi HaDor”, and what he may or may not have written in letters about davening to dead people, is nothing more than an interesting vort at best, but more like a historical curiosities and הפקר ובטל כאפרא דארע.
What is wrong if the lubavitcher rebbe’s opinion was that all girls should light shabbos candles? You are certainly entitled to your mesorah but in Judaism there has always differing opinions. Exactly which “
@2scents,
“This question has been asked before, but I will rephrase it. Is it possible for anyone else other than the Rebbe to be Moshiach?”
I don’t know what answer you’re looking for, but in my opinion, shared by many other Lubavitchers, of course it’s possible for anyone who fits the Rambams descriptions to be Moshiach. It doesn’t have to be the Rebbe.are you transgressing by having the opinion that all girls should light? You provided a link to a chabad website where they answer according to the chabad hashkafah.
MoshiachChat and Chabadshluchah, 2 things:
1. Quoting different Gedolim who said big compliments about the Rebbe carries little weight- they were were very nice and humble people who would compliment other Rabbis.
2. MochiachChat, even if an Achron says a pshat in something and a learned person (who is not officially a famous Rabbi) finds it very shver, he is allowed to disagree (depending on the circumstances). Reading a Rambam about Moshiach is such a case. It is very straightforward. Plus, the Rebbe was not known as a huge Gadol ba’Torah on the level of Rav Aharon Kotler or Rav Akiva Eiger.We light shabbos candles to bring more light and peace to the world. Before the holocaust ALL girls lit shabbos candles but because of shortages they stopped so the mesora died down so to say .
Sechel hayashar reminds of an Israeli minister being interrogated by BBC, cnn, sky news and all other ymach shemonikin
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