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@gaon no I’m sure there was much much more to it but there’s books to read and I’m not supposed to write one in one post. My point in bringing up that incident was to show that even though the Gra sincerely meant well, he accepted misinformation. And if he only would have agreed to meet the Alter Rebbe instead of running away, the whole conflict would have been avoided. (I watched a video of his descendent testifying to the above. That the Gra saw the Alter Rebbe through the keyhole of his door in Vilna, and realized there was so much kedusha there that he would have become a chossid, so instead he ran away, jumped out a window or something and the meeting never happened: ()
א”ין כל* חיוב *כלל* לחפש מיהו משיח וכו’ אבל *מ”ע מה”ת:* [מצות עשה מן התורה] אהבת *כאו”א* [כל אחד ואחד] מישראל ושלילת המחלוקת וכו’ *בתכלית* – ופשיטא שלא לעשות במזיד הפכו *וד”ל* [ודי למבין].”
Thanks for sharing! 1000%!! But why do you think the Rebbe gave so those very obvious hints in the nuns? You have to look up the context but it seems this letter was written to some overzealous chassidim who were trying to lord it over everyone that the Rebbe is Moshiach… If you ask why I’m sharing here, well quite simply it seems the Meshichistim Israelis have done a great job at letting the cat out of the bag, and mostly in a way of Oirois dTohu. So what’s left for us is to pick up the pieces, bkeilim dtikkun. I don’t think you’re not spending another it means the oilam doesn’t know what the majority of Lubavitch think, aderabe by your (and I mean your as a klal not you as a yochid as you spoke up, albeit reluctantly) silence, your letting them think we have no basis and we’re all simply crazy
…@sechel hayashar
Interesting about the maamar. I got my answer but I should look this up over Shabbos.
so you have no problem with the Rebbe saying in Basi lgani that the Frierdiker Rebbe will be moshiach, but you have a problem with the Rebbe saying that Rebbe will be moshiach? Especially as you know I’m the nuns when the Rebbe said Nossi doreinu would be Moshiach, he said the author of likutei sichos, and that was not the Frierdiker Rebbe, so I don’t get why you even think that’s an answer as to do you selectively learn what for with your comfortable beliefs?
“if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)”
Ummm… This would make me suspect your credentials as a bonafide lubavitcher much more than your understandings of the sichos… But thanks for the vote of confidence I suppose.
As far as the ikkar-agreed I’ve mentioned that many times.
As far as the non joke- if the source is the Alter Rebbe then youre right it’s inappropriate to call it a joke. Didn’t know where it was from
@yw mods thanks so much for allowing and facilitating this discussion, much appreciated to see this openmindedness to understanding our path…
@joseph seems you didn’t see my previous response regarding shlucha.
@slominer actually funnily enough I gave my first underground chassidus shiur there on a maamar in derech mitzvosecha I think it was, when I was 19. The next night there was a lchaim of a friend of mine from there but I was not allowed to greet anyone from the shiur as it was apparently a big deal if they’d be caught.
@Slonimer,
That’s a question deserving of it’s own thread, but I’ll try give a few points in short. I’m sure @ChabadShlucha will answer too.
1. “What does learning “Chasidus” mean and entail?”
Learning Chassidus means studying the works of Chassidus Rebbeim in general, and what I learn specifically as a Chabad Chossid is Chassidus Chabad. It entails beginning with the Yesodos of Chassidus, usually with a Chavrusa or a sefer with biurim until you can fully understand it yourself. On a practical level, I’d recommend learning the first few Prokim of Tanya, and then learning a few Prokim in the second section of Tanya, Shaar Hayichud Vehoemuna. I’d also recommend reading the Hakdamah.
Another basic sefer of Chassidus Chabad is Kuntres Umaayan,
which is often the first sefer Chassidus learned by young Cha ad bochurim, this you may not need a biur, it’s quite self understand and doesn’t introduce many concepts from Kabbala. As an aside, if you are a Slonimer, you may find a part of the sefer which has some writings of the Frierdiker Rebbe and the Slonimer Rebbe a and R Chaim Brisker (if I’m not mistaken) are mentioned there.2.”What is Chasidus (does it include seforim from non-Chabad Chasidishe Rebbes/talmidei chachamim) and why would non-Chasidim learn it?”
Chassidus has the a similar tafkid to mussar, to refine a person and make him serve Hashem with an emes. (In very short). To do that, Chassidus and mussar employ very different methods. Chassidus defines a persons neshama, and helps you understand who you really are as a Yid. It helps you understand what a Yids relationship to Hashem is.
A good explanation can be found in Kuntres Inyonoh Shel Toras HaChassidus, also available in English as “On the Essence of Chassidus”.Much of what Chassidishe Rebbeim wrote is Chassidus (not everything, of course Shulchan Aruch Harav for example isn’t Chassidus) Kedushas Levi from the Berditchever, Noam Elimelech from the Rebbe Reb Elimelech of Lizhensk, Nesivas Sholom from the Slonimer, Sfas Emes from the Gerrer Rebbe, just to name a few. All these are Chassidus, albeit a different style than Chassidus Chabad. (It’s been often said that Sfas Emes is similar to Likkutei Torah from the Baal HaTanya)
3. “How’s it different than non-Chasidish seforim?”
You’ll have to see for yourself:) I think I’ve explained a little above.4. “As a practical matter, is it widely learnt by non-Chasidim?”
Definitely. I personally know many Litvaks and Chassidim who learn Chabad Chassidus. I know a Toldos Ahroner dayan you delves into Chabad Chassidus. I’m sure wherever you live you can find a group of serious Yungerlait learning Chassidus.
I hope this helps.@LitvisherChassid,
I love the way you just come and tell me what I really think, when I spell out what I think you just brush it away, and explain what I really think. If we’re going to have an honest respectful discussion, you’ll have to make my word on my personal beliefs. Also, I dare say that you are getting some of your information from a certain anti religious site that has recently been shut down. Vehameivin yovin.@ChabadShlucha,
““if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)””
No disrespect meant there, I was referring to what you love to say “noshim daatan kallos hayn”.As for Bosi Legani, look up the reference the Rebbe adds at the end, and you’ll see what I mean.
@ChabadShlucha,
“and Israeli shluchim will tend to say it within their communities as well…”
As an alumnus of Kiryat Gat (top Chabad yeshivah in EY)
and someone who spent much time with local Israeli shluchim, I’d say that’s quite inaccurate. Majority of actual official Shluchim (under Tzach/merkos) do not say Yechi. I know it’s convenient to blame Israelis for our problems, but alot of this began right in Crown Heights.@ChabadShlucha,
“he said the author of likutei sichos”
Really? Not only have I never seen this, I’ve never even heard of it. Please share your source.@ChabadShlucha,
Amazing Hashgocho Protis, as we speak, I’m learning the same maamar I referenced before, veavraham zakein 5738, and the Rebbe brings the pasuk אין צדיק בארץ אשר יעשה טוב ולא יחטא and the Rebbe says Cheit milashon chisaron. Look it up, end of ois daled.Re olam habo: there’s a story of a chossid who entered into yechidus with either the Rebbe Rashab or Rebbe Mayarash and said Rebbe it’s not fair. As Lubavitchers we have it worse off in this world and olam having!
The Rebbe motioned how?
He continued:
Imagine a Poilisher chossid. He tells his wife he’s going to the Rebbe, and she’s all happy because he’ll get them. Less of brachos so she packs him a nice bag and off he goes. He gets to the Rebbe such inspiration watching the Rebbe daven the Rebbe’s Tish etc. A mechaye. Before he leaves he gets brachos from the Rebbe and off he goes.After 120 years he comes to shomayim and they ask him what’s with your davening? Learning? Etc. Here says he’s from the chassidim that live by the emuna of their Rebbe. He’s dismissed to gan Eden.
Meanwhile a lubavitcher wants to go to the Rebbe and he barely escapes as his wife is upset he’s leaving again. No lunch. Gets to lubavitch tries to hear a few words of the Rebbe’s maamar, the place is packed he can’t really hear.
He goes into yechidus forgets all his physical work and asks how to serve Hashem better.
After 120 years, he comes to shomayim, the Malachim ask him Nu who are you? He says he’s a lubavitcher. They say, ah. Your Rebbe taught you plenty of how to serve Hashem in your own. So let’s see where your Ahavas Hashem, yiras Hashem? Not exactly up to par. They send him to gehennom.
But, the chossid continues, I would never exchange my gehennom for their gan Eden…
@ChabadShlucha,
“I watched a video of his descendent testifying to the above. That the Gra saw the Alter Rebbe through the keyhole of his door in Vilna, and realized there was so much kedusha there that he would have become a chossid”
Interesting you bring that up. In Lubavitch our version is that the Talmidim of the GR”a didn’t let the Alter Rebbe in, however the descendants of the Gra, (specifically Rav Yoshe Beer Soleveitchik) had a different version, the one you mentioned. Another difference in the versions is who the Alter Rebbe went with. In our version, he went with R Mendel of Vitebsk, in Rav Soleveitchik’s version, he went with the Berditchever. I can’t post links here, so Google “alter Rebbe vilan gaon” should be the second result where you can watch Rav Leibel Schapiro (Rosh Yeshiva and Rob of Chabad in Miami) say it over the way he heard it from Rav Soleveitchik.Chabad shlucha. Was mordechai hayehudi great enough to be considered the Moshe of his generation? If he was, was he the potential moshiach? It couldn’t because he was a descendant of
Shaul hamelech not Dovid . Not everything you learn in midrash needs to be taken literally. Dovid hamelech is also considered a moshiach. We say in kedushah ofnshabos davenong ol yeday Dovid moshiach tzodkecho. Moshiach is first and foremost a halachik status but it’s also a generic term.@slominer
“What does learning “Chasidus” mean and entail?”For practical purposes let’s say starting with learning Tanya is a good start.
“What is Chasidus (does it include seforim from non-Chabad Chasidishe Rebbes/talmidei chachamim) and why would non-Chasidim learn it?”
There are non Chabad chassidus sefarim but as it is not written in Chabad fashion, you would need to learn Chabad chassidus to understand that too. Not sure if not chassidim learn the chassidus of other kreizen.
“How’s it different than non-Chasidish seforim?”
Well that’s a great range lol. Generally, because it’s pnimiyus haTorah so it gives the neshama view. For example, say parshas korach- mefarshim will be debating the technicalities of what korachs complaints were and how the story happened, chassidus will address the underlying dynamic of what does this represent in our avodas Hashem? Because everything in Torah is a lesson for us. Torah milashon horaah. For some chassidus on the parsha, try likutei sichos-the first four volumes especially are referred to as the basics. Others have more shakla vtarya. I actually go on a spiritual high when I delve into a sicha with a chevrusa. It’s awesome. I didn’t think I would say that before but now that hopefully I’ve given you cause to believe I’m a rational person, I can tell you about my sicha highs.
“As a practical matter, is it widely learnt by non-chasidim?”
Yeah.
@ meno it’s all the same. Chabad is an acronym for Chochma Bina Daas, because Chananya chassidus was written in a way to be understood and applied practically.
Lubavitch is the town in Russia which was the seat of chabad chassidus for years. Incidentally, Lubavitch means City of love.@joseph guess we’ll see what happens…
Chabadshlucha – So, the short and sweet of it, a Brisker, a Gerrer and virtually every other frum Yid would be wise to become a Lubavitcher.
Because, as you put it, a non-Lubavitcher’s gan eden is not as good as, even, a Lubavitcher’s gehenom.
Sechel,
“Re olam habo: there’s a story of a chossid who entered into yechidus with either the Rebbe Rashab”
Interesting, the very same story is told regarding ‘Kotzk’ in comparison to other Chasidus….just without mentioning it to the Rebbe .
@sechelhayashar interesting but I want referring to the ones in Israel, I was referring to the ones that go to the farthest reaches of the planet. Youknow who takes the most crazy shlichus positions in rural India etc. Yeah it’s those crazy Meshichists. Seems their chayus helps them out,.
What’s the Lubavitch position on women’s equality with men in religious/shlichus matters?
@sechel hayashar nice! You recall I said chet as chisaron in the beginning of this thread? But good to know an exact source, thanks!
Really? You’ve never even heard of it? That’s the problems with these yeshivas they teach the convenient sichos that can be explained away… I’ve not only heard of it but seen it myself. It’s in one of the nun aleph nun beis… Will let you know an exact source iyh @slominer here is where my husband comes in
@put down the gun
Fascinating point because the Rebbe says straight out that Mordechai was the Moshe of his generation. Wow lots of things to research here… When an I gonna do it all? Any volunteers to help me out? Lol I’ll do my best but got a buddy week ahead. I’ll put it in my list of things to do though.
@ChabadShlucha,
“There are non Chabad chassidus sefarim but as it is not written in Chabad fashion, you would need to learn Chabad chassidus to understand that too. ”
Is that a typo? If they’re not written in Chabad fashion, why would you need to learn Chabad Chassidus to understand it?Maybe you mean that one enhances the understanding of the other. The Rebbe certainly quoted the Kedushas Levi and the Noam Elimelech. I’ve heard from people who learn both, that you can gain alot more depth in say a Kedushas Levi with the background of Chabad Chassidus.
@Slonimer,
“So, the short and sweet of it, a Brisker, a Gerrer and virtually every other frum Yid would be wise to become a Lubavitcher.”
Well, I personally wouldn’t have written this, I don’t see what you gain by it. However now that it was written, do you really find it so surprising that a particular group feels that they are special and unique? I’m sure a Belzer Chossid feels that Belz is the most special Chassidus, and a Vizhnitzer will tell you that his is the greatest.
If I didn’t think my Chassidus was so special, even more than all the others, then why would I be a Lubavitcher? (Or Belzer or whatever).
In the Oilom Hayeshivos, if I learned in Mir, it’s probably because I felt it had the most to offer, or it’s Roshei Yeshiva were the most special.@slominer oy you completely missed my point! The point was that even if we would need to suffer for learning chassidus, because more would be expected from us as a result, I would do it. Can’t get enough of it.
Did you get the term tzaddik?
Sure, but nobody but the Rebbe and his chassidim considered him a tzaddik by that definition.
@ChabadShlucha,
“the most crazy shlichus positions in rural India etc. Yeah it’s those crazy Meshichists. ”
I’m sure you realize that these people aren’t Shluchim, they’re private people doing their own thing. They do not operate under Merkos L’inyonei Chinuch.
“But good to know an exact source, thanks!”
Likkutei Torah, Matos 82 first column. It’s quite similar to what’s explained in Tanya.@ChabadShlucha,
“Fascinating point because the Rebbe says straight out that Mordechai was the Moshe of his generation. Wow lots of things to research here…”
See what the Rebbe says in Likkutei Sichos Chelek 35, Vayigash, Sicha 3. Page 206. It will interest you, and explain alot of what I’ve been saying. Primarily footnote 6.I am a non chabad bochur who goes to a chabad yeshiva.
in my yeshiva they are mostly meshichists and I would sometimes consider it apikorses.
I constantly am told by fellow bochrim that the rebbes kaver is empty and there was nothing in the coffen when he died.
in addition they also claim the rebbe is literally hashem in a human guf!Sechel:
If I said telling an Ashkenazi he can eat kitniyos on Pesach is a “serious issur,” would you accuse me of “being disrespectful to Sphardi poskim?” I didn’t think so. I never said anything against the Baal HaTanya, but trying to get people to abandon their minhagim and adopt ways that can be considered assur by their actual minhagim is a big problem; you keep screaming discrimination to avoid dealing with that reality.The tefillin size thing I mentioned is brought down in Mishnah Berura (authored by the Chofetz Chaim who, in your mind, loved the Baal HaTanya so much he thought we should all ignore our minhagim and become Lubavitchers). However, I believe it’s straight from the Machaber. I think Chabad is alone with the jumbo tefillin shitta. I did actually learn Shulchan Aruch HaRav on hilchos tefillin (I remember specifically because he writes a good argument, ironically, on why we SHOULD wrap during chol hamoed). I do not recall any mention of the giant dimensions, but I will look.
@Yid123,
“I am a non chabad bochur who goes to a chabad yeshiva.”
Let’s say that your account is true, ( I do find it hard to believe, because there are very few non Chabad kids in Chabad Yeshivas.) why would your parents have sent you to the wildest most off the wall “Yeshivas” in North America? There exist plenty of fine Chabad Yeshivas here, to name a few, Chicago, New Haven, Los Angeles, Morristown, Baltimore…
The list goes on.
Of the kind of Yeshivas you speak about there are only two on this entire continent, Queens and Cincinnati, and both are quite small. I consider those people to be absolutely crazy and aan embarrassment to the Rebbe, the Frierdiker Rebbe, all the way up to the Baal Shem Tov. If you so want to be in a Chance ad Yeshiva ( I honestly don’t know why a nice Litvishe boy would) then do yourself a favor and head off the any of the Yeshivos I listed above.Listen Reb yid123. If you are not lying and you are in a yeshiva that believes in heresy then you are probably mechuyav to leave literally without a seconds delay and immediately find yourself a different yeshiva. There is no shortage of excellent litvishe yeshivos for all types.
For those of us who have been fortunate to be able to travel in many of the remote locations in the world and have spent shabbosim with shiluchim in places where one would never expect to find other yidden much less a welcoming “home” for Shabbos, all I can say is they have done a great job “hiding” their moishichist meshugaas from the world. Yes, there are some who have drunk the cool aid (or O’d on Moishichist chulent) but the majority are incredibly intelligent and talented yidden with a degree of mesiras nefesh and ahavas yisroel that it would be wonderful to see replicated in other chassisdus and the Litvish velt.
@Neville,
“but trying to get people to abandon their minhagim and adopt ways that can be considered assur”
You seem to be quite an intelligent person and a knowledgeable one too, so surely then you would have heard of the many Lubavitchers who came from other kraizen who were instructed by the Rebbe not to change their minhagim?
And the countless letters of the Rebbe to people telling them to keep to their original mesora?Rebyid123, did you leave yet?this is no joke.
I think we are facing the following problem (it has been voiced a number of times in the thread but I don’t believe it has been pointed out on its own, so thats what I’m trying to do here clearly):
Chabadshlucha seems an honest well meaning woman who is convinced of her view and who is trying to make us understand it and perhaps even agree with her, and I commend her for her honesty and metchlichkeit. What she quite likely doesn’t realize is that it is all based on one thing – the rebbe made up the concept of dor shivii because he decided to start from the Baal Hatanya, and that makes him dor shveii. Wouldn’t it have made more sense to start from the Be”sht, if you were indeed forced for some reason to cound seven generations? I assume every non lubavitcher would answer yes.
So we now have two points – 1. dor hashevii is significant 2. he is dor hashevii – all based on his own say-so. (I know it’s been pointed out as circular, but as I wrote I just wanted to make it clear as a standalone point.)
Everything else Chabadshluca has written to back the above up, or to show how it works is from the lubavitch rebber himself or from Chabad sources “interpreted” to fit in.
So please, if it is at all possible, give us some outside Torah sources – pure and unadulterated – that would get us “cynics” to believe.
(Btw I found the story about Reb Boruch Ber and it fits in with all the other stuff. Told by a lubavitcher on a lubavitcher website. And regardless I can’t believe that Reb Boruch Ber would ever say to anyone at all that he guarantees that he will “be the leader of the Lithuanian yeshiva world.” Reb Boruch Ber himself wasn’t the leader of the Lithuanian yeshivah world as at the time there was basically no such thing. How could he guarantee that any individual would become one?)
Slominer: there’s actually a Chabad house in (North) Williamsburg…
And CS: A bit off topic, but what’s your opinion about young girls lighting a Shabbos candle if it’s not their family minhag?
Sechel Hayashar: “…the many Lubavitchers who came from other kraizen who were instructed by the Rebbe not to change their minhagim?”
SOmeone pointed out to me some years ago that this was only true when the person in question stood out and it therefore looked good for lubavitch when people saw that so-and-so is a lubavitcher even though he appears not to be. One outstanding case in point is the son of a prominent Israeli rebbe who abandoned his claim to the dynasty and became a lubavitcher. The rebbe allegedly told him to keep his white socks, shetreimel, peyiss etc and now whoever sees him is told something like, “Look! He is the son of the ploni rebbe and he became a lubavitcher!” I was in 770 some time ago and exactly that was pointed out to me.
Can you give me an example of someone who doesn’t dress obviously different to a lubavitcher and, for example, who still puts on tefillin the way he used to before beoming lubavitch e.g. winding like Ashkenaz or like Eidut Hamizrach?
Rso. You won’t get a source of door hashivii that is not from the lubavitcher rebbe. A rebbe is not a rosh yeshiva to give a shiur in gemara. His main focus was showing the way in avodas hashem as he saw fit. Don’t believe he was a holy man?that’s your business, but the rebbe is a rebbe for lubavitcher chassidim. You asked for her viewpoint and you got it.
CS,
” (I watched a video of his descendent testifying to the above. That the Gra saw the Alter Rebbe through the keyhole of his door in Vilna, and realized there was so much kedusha there that he would have become a chossid, ”Do you really believe everything someone says on a video – only because he claims to be a descendant?
I have read plenty of material on that issue, good and bad– sorry, but this is utterly nonsense. The Gra never bothered seeing the Alter Rebbe, nor did he have any issues with emotions. Meaning, if he felt there is real kedusha,he would have no issue facing it.
You are not speaking about some nowaday Rosh Yeshiva!The gra when he finished writing his pirush on Shir hashrim, he stated to his talmid: he has completed all torah, niglah and nistar to the level of keSinusei m’Sinai, he has only one question in nistar, which he would travel to the other end of the world to find an answer…Do you really think he couldn’t face the truth?!
Anyways, i’m sure in Chabad they think the Gra was no comparison to the Alter Rebbe, and had they met he would surely convinced him…
Rso. I would presume that part of “becoming” a lubavitcher is putting on tefillin the way that they do. You have a problem if someone decides to become a lubavitcher?!Shivim
ponim latorah!@RSo,
““Look! He is the son of the ploni rebbe and he became a lubavitcher!” ”
Let’s look at the facts, why resort to conspiracy theories? I think I know why, and this applies to other commentators here as well.
You have a preconceived narrative of exactly what Lubavitch thinks and is about, it might even be based on “something I heard in 770″, no matter.
As soon as you narrative comes crashing down like a pile of bricks in the face of hard evidence to the contrary, then all the conspiracy theories come pouring out, like vomiting with a finger down your throat.
When I posted a Ksav Yad where the Rebbe strongly protests the goings on in 770 by some Chassidim, someone screamed out ” It’s a cover up! They just want to look good!”
When I tell you the Rebbes opinion about changing Minhagim, an even deeper conspiracy forms, “He said it so people will see and point and say, look a Lubavitcher with white socks! And he’s the son of a Rebbe!”Do you really believe in the Elders of Lubavitch conspiracy foundation?
Chabadshlucha wrote: “Re olam habo: there’s a story of a chossid who entered into yechidus…
(conclusion of story) But, the chossid continues, I would never exchange my gehennom for their gan Eden.”(I wonder whether I will ever get used to this story and fail to get angry at the implication…)
I know chassidim of all types and I have cousins who belong to Satmar, Vizhnitz, Belz and yes, Lubavitch. Some of the Lubavitchers have Chabad houses, some are in business and some are teachers in non-lubaitch schools. I know all of these people very well and as I see it, and believe me I look at these things carefully without hype, the same percentage of each group do things with mesirus nefesh, and the same percentage in each group don’t. I’m not blaming or looking down at anyone but those are the facts on the ground.
In my line of work I travel often and i have made use of Chabad houses on four continents: North America, South America, Europe and Asia. I have found fantastic lubavitchers in all places, but mesirus nefesh?! Lav davka! That’s another piece of hype put out by Lubavitch.
The standard line is “these people go out and do the rebbe’s bidding with nothing and all they care about is helping other yidden. What mesirus nefesh!”
Sorry but in 9.5 out of 10 shlichim get their jobs because they need parnossoh (nothing wrong with that) or because they can be “special” in their area among yidden who don’t know the difference between a Rabbi who knows halochoh and one who doesn’t. That’s often – not always, of course – why the existing Chabad houses and schools are often shortstaffed and looking for more help, while there is never a shortage of people willing to open a Chabad house in a community where there may be only relatively few yidden, and who only have to travel a short distance to find a different Chabad house.
I am not making any of this up. Every Chabad person knows the facts. It is true of where I live (out of town) and in many of the communities I have visited.
It seems (sorry for boring you with such a long post) that Chabad has tried to copyrite the concept of mesirus nefesh and defined it as SHOWING how much you care about other yidden. Some of my Satmarer relatives are moser nefesh to learn and daven (aside from the amazing things they do with bikru cholim as mentioned) and my Vizhnitz/Belz cousins are often yelled at by their wives (some of the wives are actually my cousins!) for not spending more time at home helping, or just plain being loving husbands. And the reason they don’t is not because they don’t get on with their wives, its because their first and foremost desire is to serve Hashem. Plain and simple. That is at least as much mesirus nefesh as someone driving around with a Chanukiyah on his car roof in a non-religious neighborhood.
But once again, if we can quote one of the doros 1-7 saying how “we” are moser nefesh that’s all we need to look donw at everyone else.
Put down the gun – I don’t mind that the well-meaning writer believes what she believes because the lubavitcher rebbe said so. What I mind is that she thinks that her arguments are convincing or in any way meaningful to someone who does not see the lubavitcher rebbe as a primary source for all of the Jewish world. In other words, I’m not trying to convince her, I’m trying to show her how her arguments are not at all convincing on any sort of rational level.
And as far as your point about someone deciding to become a lubavitcher and changing his minhogim: it doesn’t bother me at all. But Chabadshlucah wrote that the rebbe often told people not to change their mesoira and I asked for a case where this did not involve a public relations coup, as was the case with the son of an Israeli rebbe. Perhaps there are many cases like that, but I know many Sefardi lubavitchers and not one puts on tefillin in the Sefardi manner and not one eats rice on Pesach.
Sechel Hayashar: “When I tell you the rebbe’s opinin about changing minhogim…”
No conspiracy involved. Lets only talk about people who have come to lubavitch from other chariedi communities and have been committed Lubavitchers for a number of years. How many do you know who have not changed to the Lubavitcher nusach hatefilloh? How many wear regular Ashkenazi type talleisim like their fathers did? How many wind tefillin differently, as their fathers did.
Of couse I’m not talking about baalei teshuvah who have to start fresh and can choose whatever they like.
That’s it for me until after Shabbos. Gotta go to work… after all… I don’t own a Chabad house 🙂
” Let’s say that your account is true, ( I do find it hard to believe, because there are very few non Chabad kids in Chabad Yeshivas.) why would your parents have sent you to the wildest most off the wall “Yeshivas” in North America? ”
That post is unfair. To accuse a boy of lying because you cannot envision his situation is not an appropriate justification. I don’t think this suspicion toward posters is fair. I can think of a handful of reasons why he may be in his situation. And if he is living in some corner of yehopitzville where there are only him and a handful of meshichists, he can’t just “head off” somewhere else. I think we need to be a bit more supportive and empathetic and a bit less suspicious.
Outside of this one case, that advice really does not apply to you, SH, as you have been respectful, but calling every sound argument against Chabad teachings “hateful posts” is wrong. There are very legitimate reasons why people have tainas against Chabad and getting lectured on it is not obligating anyone to change their mind. If anyone is being hateful (besides GH’s typical), look at the digs and “jokes” putting down non lubavitch that CS keeps throwing out that have thus far gone without much public protest.
So enough of the calling racist. You can explain yourselves and take questions, and accept that many points being presented go against Torah as we know it, and we have an obligation to say so. Yes, each chassidus believes their rebbe is THE rebbe, but not one of them has trouble with others being in their own derech. So it’s not the same, it’s very specific to Chabad, and just as you defend the derech you are on, you can expect no less from us.
And lastly, I have to say that all that I have heard in these explainations have done more damage to my view of lubavitch’s authenticity than any yellow flag waving nutcase who lives on my block. Except for Seichel Hayashers balanced interjections, this thread has enlightened me to the extent that this lubavitch lifestyle you describe is much less connected to Judaism than I would ever have dared think on my own.
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