Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

@ChabadShlucha,
I referenced earlier a Ksav Yad of the Rebbe. I’d love to upload it, but I don’t know if that’s possible. I’m sure you can find it just like I did. I’ll include the Rebbes exact words here, with no explanations or translations.
*אין כל* חיוב *כלל* לחפש מיהו משיח וכו’ אבל *מ”ע מה”ת:* [מצות עשה מן התורה] אהבת *כאו”א* [כל אחד ואחד] מישראל ושלילת המחלוקת וכו’ *בתכלית* – ופשיטא שלא לעשות במזיד הפכו *וד”ל* [ודי למבין].
An asterisk indicates the Rebbe underlined the word, some were underlined twice.

@ChabadShlucha,
“The other was that on the one hand the neshama is a nivra, but we learn that at it’s core, it’s one with Hashem. I wanted to understand how we experience that…”
Interesting question, bhashgacha protis, last night I was learning a maamar which speaks about this, (ואברהם זקן, מלוקט א’)
Secondly,
“Impress like I said, you may be living in denial? I’m actually quite curious”
This is why I gave my credentials as a bonafide Lubavitcher:)
It’s a good question, and will take a long time to answer, since most of the nuances of it aren’t of relevance to many readers here, and it’ll take a long time to write up, I’ll give you a few references to look up.
1. Alot of what I’m saying comes from R Berel Levin (guy who put together many of the Rebbes sforim, Head Librarian of the Rebbes library, wrote the footnotes to Alter Rebbes S”A )
which he wrote it “Kovetz Moshiach Ugeula”, it’s quite hard to find today, maybe your husband has seen it.
2. In the Bosi Legani 5711, the Rebbe concludes with “Vehu Yigoleinu” (the frierdiker Rebbe), then on the bottom, the Rebbe adds a footnote referencing Bamidbar Rabba, look it up. Also when the Rebbe was asked how this could be, he explained on Yud Gimmel Shvat.
3. Please see Likutei Sichos Lamed Hey, page 206 (vayigash Gimmel) footnote 6, where the Rebbe explains why Dovid Hamelech can’t be Moshiach, even though it says so “vedovid avdi nosi lohem leolom”, though the Gemara says that Moshiach could be min hameisim.
I’m sorry I didn’t take the time to spell out everything, but “Yagayta umatzasa taamin” if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)
Thirdly, I definitely wish and hope the Rebbe will be Moshiach, is it rational? Not at all. Is it probable? No. Could it happen?
The Aibershter can do anything. But the focus needs to be on bringing Moshiach, regardless of who he will or will not be.
Fourth,
“there is a joke within Lubavitch that Moshiach must be a Litvak, because otherwise not all of klal Yisrael will accept him, whereas lubavitchers will be happy to accept whoever it is…”
This was actually said by the Alter Rebbe, as such it has more bearing than a simple joke.

@LitvisherChossid,
“or rather your husband took over for you completely.”
I take offense on ChabadShluchas behalf. That’s quite an assumption to make. I don’t know how many Chabad women you know well, but from what I’ve seen, many of them are quite knowledgeable in Torah. Chabad women study Chumash with meforshim, some Gemara, Rambam, and Chassidus.

“Do you think he would wave you on?”
I can assure you the Rebbe would be very upset by what goes on today in 770. To quote R Yoel Kahan (a leading Rav in Chabad today, miziknei hachassidim)
“What the Meshichistim do to the Rebbe, even the communists didn’t do”.
Many Chassidim are appalled at what goes on there, some won’t even daven in the downstairs shul. This is why there’s a legal fight over 770, so mishogoyim can be thrown out once and for all.

Cs: I’m sorry you missed out on that point in Chabad chinuch. It was in grade school when a boy came late to class and the rebbi asked why he was late. He responded that he had gone to wait for Moshiach. Rebbi asked him if he doesn’t believe in Eliayahu Hanavi. I also know first hand that Bais Rifka high school in Crown Heights had the same field trip.

@Neville,
1. Clapping on Shabbos: According to many Chassidim, not just Chabad, it’s muttar if it’s to a song. Ie, not for clapping after a speech.
2. Tefilin size: I have never heard anyone say it’s borderline passul. These measurements come straight out of Shulchan Aruch Harav. And before you disparage him, look what the Mishna Berura says about him.
3. Benetictine: Follow the guidelines of your local Kashrus agency or talk to your Room.
4. Shas vs Chassidus:
Funny one. On Yud Test Kislev every year (which we call the RH of Chassidus) we make a Chalukas HaShas, and every Shul finishes Shas within the year. Additionally, many Lubavitchers learn Daf Yomi.

@ubiquitin I can’t have a serious in depth discussion with you if you are too impatient to read up on the background concepts because it’s too boring for you. If you just want aquick pat answer well then this song was written when the Rebbe was sick, and everyone was davening he should recover. As to the other answer, it’s a long one and involves explaining a concept which frankly would bore you as you write. So I don’t see a reason to write it up.

@ubiquitin no of course Hashem Hashem kel rachum is addressed to Hashem. They were begging Hashem to make the Rebbe better. The song is still popular because it expresses the depths of the connection between the chossid and Rebbe and touches us in a deep way.

“Or should I say chabadSHLIACH since it’s quite obvious you are getting information from elsewhere, or rather your husband took over for you completely. You almost had us fooled as how much more knowledgeable in Torah you lubavitch woman are than the rest of us, but that’s not my point.”

I set aside the times I feed my baby to reply to this forum. I will take your words as a compliment but no I haven’t yet asked anyone for any sources. I told you I try to learn a sicha or maamar a few times a week and there are tremendous amounts knowledge from all parts of Torah contained within. I wouldn’t say the typical lubavitcher shlucha could remember this all offhand, but I am on the academic side BH. And no my husband isn’t much of an academic so he doesn’t have much patience to read this all, least if all reply for me. Besides he teaches all day. My time is up for now but will continue responding it at my next opportunity.

@Sechel HaYashar- They claim, you have to understand what that response meant. Also some question if that letter existed as a coverup.

“And I think the first one to claim there other legitimate leaders of Benei Yisroel at the time of Moshe Rabbeinu, was none other than Korach”

Not that there are other legitimate leaders, no one denies that the Shvatim or Aharon were leaders. Korachs claim was that there can be more than one Moshe Rabbeinu per generation, or that there is no need for one at all and everyone can be equal. Yes this is a very important point.

@Joseph
“As a self-described “avowed non-mesichist” who nevertheless you say you believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach and you believe that “zt’l” should not be said when mentioning the Rebbe (for the reason that the earlier explained), how do you see yourself being different than the meshichists who you avowedly are not one of?”

I do not recall describing myself as a self annoyed non Meshichist. In fact, I like most girls, really don’t care because it’s not the main point anyway. The point is to bring Moshiach. And this is what the Rebbe emphasized as well, although husband does remind me that I should lean more to the Meshichist side, because the Rebbe wouldn’t hint all this for nothing. At the end of the day it’s a matter of the heart. I’m happy to understand all sides, I find it quite interesting and as long as a shita makes sense, I’m happy to follow. Which is the good side of noshim daaton Kalos, I don’t have to be stuck to any one side.

“Do you find it objectionable for others to refer to the “Rebbe zt’l” or is that only something you choose not to utter?”

I choose not to pass judgement on anyone. As a saying goes the last time Moshe Rabbeinu was hidden for just a day, chet haegel happened. It is really tough, and I’m certainly not going to pass judgement on anything less than an aveira or lack of chassidishkeit.

“If so, are you trying to say that the only real difference between non-mesichists such as yourself and meshichists is which side of the 770 property dispute you believe is right — as both sides believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”

The above should clarify. Those people fighting know that sholom jus most important, unfortunately they got sucked on by their yetzer Hara. Hope it resolves itself soon

“Is saying “Yechi” a dispute between the meshichists and non-meshichists?”

Yes although among the girls it’s not a topic that w discuss much at all, amongst the boys probably more

“Is there a way to join this elite/chosen group? If so
how?”

I don’t like your choice of words as I don’t think like that but I understand why you use them. We use the terms front lines, because every group in klal Yisrael is needed and adds as discussed. If you are being serious, then just know that when Moshiach comes he will thank every You for their part in bringing him ie making the world a G-dly place.

If you’d like to join the front lines I’d suggest to do whatever you can to help and be mekarev your fellow Jews, such as inviting not yet frum Yidden over for Shabbos, there are loads of things that anyone can do in that direction it’s just a mindset- help as many Yidden as you can do as many mitzvos as possible.

Work on yourself but don’t wait till you’re perfect before you help others. “If you know an aleph, teach an aleph”

Sulearn as much as you can about the geula and what you can do to bring it. I highly suggest the 2sefarim set of shaarei geula-hoemuna vhatzifia, and shaarei geula-hoemuna ymos haMoshiach. The more you know the more motivated you will be.

Learn chassidus so that you will be in touch with what your neshama is and who you really are, so that you don’t have an identity crisis when Moshiach comes, and you will enjoy the process so much more, and you will be able to identify all the giluim that you were just learning about till then, ie you will know what you are experiencing.

@LitvisherChossid
“Also some question if that letter existed as a coverup”
And vaccines cause autism, Obama was born in Kenya,
Bush/Mossad did 9/11, and man didn’t land on the moon.
It’s all one giant cover-up. Once it was the mythical Elders of Zion, today it’s the Elders of Chabad.

I wrote about R Baruch Ber crying that the lubavitch rebbe wouldn’t become his talmid: “No, I didn’t know that, and I wonder whether anybody else outside of lubavitch does. In fact, I wonder whether R Baruch Ber himself knew of it.”
Chabadshlucha replied: “I would be happy to bring proof but the cynicism here dissuades me…”

OK. I admit. I’m a cynic. But the question is still a good question. Everything you’ve posted that some of us find objectionable has as its source only Lubavitch, no outside source. And as we are disputing the properness of these thoughts bringing proof from the rebbe or Chabad statements is not a valid reply.

I’ll give you another example that I have heard elsewhere: the lubavitch rebbe had smicho from the Rogatchover Gaon. And they also corresponded. (Has anyone else out there heard that? I’ve both heard it and seen it written.)

I have asked and there is no source for the semicho story – I believe not even from the rebbe himself.

And as to the alleged correspondence: I have been shown a letter written by the rebbe addressed to the Rogatchover Gaon but I hve never been shown a letter in reply. If I wrote to President Trump would that latter prove that “we” had corresponded.

Please allow me to point out that I believe that you are upright and honest, and that you seek the truth, but you have believed everything you were taught in and out of school by the lubavitch system and you have no external sources that back any of it up.

Even your source about nossi hador = moshiach/Moshe Rabbeinu hador is from the sichos. The only external reference is to Rashi who says that Moshe was Yisroel and Yisroel was Moshe, and the nossi is everything. No referentce to the leader of the generation being nossi.

And anyway, the idea that there is a nossi nowadays is itself a lubavitch invention.

@RsO,
“I have asked and there is no source for the semicho story – I believe not even from the rebbe himself.”
You’re raising an interesting topic. There’s a new book called The Early Years, where this is discussed. If I recall correctly, there’s no hard proof or documentation that the Rebbe received semicha from Rogatchover, but the correspondence definitely did happen, and you can see the letters from both of them in this book. It’s probably available elsewhere as well.

Sechel:
It would make more halachic sense to permit clapping for applause, but not for music. However, you are correct; Chabad is not alone in that one. My point was more that Chabad encourages people to deviate from their minhagei avos even where serious issurim are involved.

We are supposed to be able to fit 2 batim in the space between the hairline and baby-bump. This is objectively impossible with Chabad tefillin.

I could see why you would want to brush off the Benedictine controversy:
This is not just a kashrus disagreement. Lubavitchers consume it because the Rebbe drank it. Most of us prefer our mashgichim to be alive. It is very likely that the willingness to hold by a dead mashgiach goes hand and hand with the belief in a dead moshiach.

@RsO,
In case they won’t post a link here, the story of R Boruch Ber and the Rebbe was told by R Yosef Krupnik, of Detroit (not a Lubavitcher) if the link doesn’t go up, you can simply Google “Reb Boruch Ber Chabad” and it should be the first result.

Rso
“lubavitch rebbe had smicho from the Rogatchover Gaon. And they also corresponded. ”

In regards to ‘correspondence’ I don’t know what difference it makes, anyone familiar with the Rogatchovers works knows that he “corresponded” with anyone who wrote, (especially f you were a decendent of the Alter Rebbe – as he was Chabad, ,, though of the Kapuster, obviously he didn’t go for the seven does) as long as it fitted into his postcard size reply page.

However, if you would to say the “titles” addressed were somehow on the high caliber, then that would be something, knowing the Rogatchover… And I don’t think that is the case…

Chabadshlucha one thing you forgot to mention is that in a sicha and a maamer it has all leveles of learning it has פשט רמז דרוש סוז

@Neville,
“It would make more halachic sense to permit clapping for applause, but not for music. However, you are correct; Chabad is not alone in that one. My point was more that Chabad encourages people to deviate from their minhagei avos even where serious issurim are involved.

We are supposed to be able to fit 2 batim in the space between the hairline and baby-bump. This is objectively impossible with Chabad tefillin.”

Do you fancy yourself such a great posek of the stature of the Baal HaTanya veShulchan Aruch Harav, that you will denounce what he says as “serious issurim” and “bordeline posul”??
If you were to reference an actual Acharon with such an opinion, fine. But for you, Johnny come lately, to have such disrespect for a undisputed Godol B’yisrael as the Bal HaTanya, someone revered by all Poskim (you can see for yourself what the Mishna Berura says about him) is totally and utterly disgraceful! You should go to his Kever in Haditch with a minyan and beg for mechila.
For all the talk you have about Lubavitchers not respecting other Gedolim, I’ve never in my life heard someone talk like this about the Psokim of (for example) the Mishna Berura or Aruch HaShulchan. You give a bad name to the majority of Litvaks who truly don’t have an issue with Chabad.

A “funny” joke I heard plenty of times:

A litvak, a poilisher and a Lubavitcher were in gehenim together and the litvak said rosh yeshiva save me. So the rosh yeshiva shlepped him out by his feet. And the poilisher said rebbe save me so the rebbe shlepped him out by his payis. And the Lubavitcher said rebbe save me so the rebbe smiled and gave him a dollar and said Hatzlucha oif denim shlichus.

“Just wanted to sincerely ask as someone who knows a lot about chabad and has spent unfortunately too much time in crown heights, why is it ok to stop in middle of davening kabbalas shabbos to Hashem, in the middle of lecha Dodi, to start jumping up and down fervently and sing yechi adoneinu for TEN minutes at the top of your lungs towards the Rebbes chair in 770!”

Firstly it’s not in the middle, it’s afterwards until tzeis:) let’s be accurate here.

“Quite honestly would you do that if you truly saw the Rebbe in front of you? Do you think he would wave you on?”

Well quite honestly, the frenzy of Yechi was really after the stroke and yes the Rebbe did wave them on…

Would I personally? No but I’m in a different generation and once Moshiach comes there won’t be a need so it’s really irrelevant. The chassidim started the whole Yechi singing for long periods of time when the Rebbe had the stole because they thought maybe this would break through this heelem vhester and then the Rebbe could be revealed as Moshiach once and for all. Unfortunately, they really missed the whole point of famous koach Nissan sicha, where the Rebbe was so upset… But that’s for another time. But it seems that’s why gimmel tammuz happened. Anyhow…

“I don’t care that it’s meschichist tzfatim, this goes over the line and it’s happening in front of your eyes.”

Yeah I use the extra time to say my chitas or catch up to the minyan. Seriously, do you want me to tell at them from the ladies section?? And anyhow they don’t listen to anyone

“The Rebbe at one point even scolded people looking at him during davening and was very emotional about it.”

What does this have to do with singing Yechi in between parts of davening?

“And you dare to pull this off in middle of davening!”

Most of us roll our eyes the first time, but then we get used to it and learn a sicha or something. Anyhow these are the bochurim who get violent for the most part so I wouldn’t advise you to yell at them. That’s what the court case is all about apparently, stuff like that

@gaon. I looked it up. Yeah I know the difference between speech and breath-that wasn’t my question. My question was: I know the experience of the nivra part of my neshama because when I feel love towards Hashem, I feel myself as a separate entity loving Hashem. My question was if my essence is one with Hashem, Borei, how do I get in touch with that party of myself?

@yiddishekop the first chassidim were definitely not am haaratzim. If you’d like to know where to read the history I’ll be happy to direct you.
As far as the peyes afaik, it’s because according the the kabbala of the Arizal, they should be short. Don’t know why everyone else wears them long, would love to know if anyone does know, please lmk