Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

A fascinating interview with Mr David Berger ( macher in Yeshiva University, and misnaged par excellence) was done by R Dovid Lichtenstein of Halachic Headlines, about this very topic. I highly recommend listening to it if you want to hear what a rational Litvak (Lichtenstein, not Berger) has to say about this issue.
@putThegunDown, shabbsai Tzvi always comes in the same way Yoshke comes in. It’s the irrational fear of Lubavitchers that causes it.

@DaasYochid,
“Precisely. All those wonderful things you do should be for the sake of the mitzvah, not to hasten moshiach. Hopefully that will occur too.”
They are done to fulfill our obligation to care for another You, which hastens Moshiachs coming. Do you not believe that an increase in Torah and Mitzvahs is mezarez the Geula?

“The Rambam is referring to belief in Moshiach, not specifically belief that the Rebbe is moshiach.”
Have you understood from my posts that I believe the Rebbe is Moshiach? I think I’ve been pretty clear that it’s not the case.
My point of bringing the Rambam was to stress how important believing and and anticipating Moshiachs coming is, and how it’s not a Lubavitcher novelty.
Also, I’m quite sure the Chofetz Chaim spoke and wrote alot about Moshiach.

Litvisher chossid . I think the attitude of zilzul that you may detect in some lubavitchers may just be a defense reaction( obviously not justifying it) against certain individuals in the yeshivishe world that are unfortunately lhachris against them. And I think some individual posts in this coffee thread testify to this theory.

@DaasYochid,
“I disagree with the way the chinuch today is to do mitzvos for the Rebbe and for Moshiach. You’re supposed to do mitzvos for Hashem.”
In which Chabad schools or Yeshivas were you educated?
Mitzvos are רצונו יתברך. I haven’t heard otherwise.

“have I indicated that I don’t believe in Moshiach or think it shouldn’t be talked about, hoped for, prayed for?”

When we do exactly that you called it an obsession. I refer you to the Chofetz Chaims sefer ציפית לישועה where he beseeches people to learn the dinim of Korbonos, because Moshiach is coming any day.
Why when we do concrete peulos to be mezarez the Geula do you deride them? Do you not think it’s high time for Moshiach to come and we must do our part in readying the world with Torah and Mitzvahs, and Teshuva to hasten it?
Do you disagree with the Gemara in Sanhdrin צז
“כלו כל הקיצין ואין הדבר תלוי אלא בתשובה”.?
Do you disagree with the Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva ז)
“אין ישראל נגאלין אלא בתשובה, וכבר הבטיחה תורה שסוף ישראל לעשות תשובה בסוף גלותן, ומיד הן נגאלין”.?

Sechel,
“He also wants us to fulfill the ultimate purpose of creation, Yemos Hamoshiach”

The Rambam nor anyone else mentions that He wants US to fulfil that purpose. If anything it’s the other way around. The ultimate purpose of משיח is that in itself that we should be able to learn etc.

As stated in Rambam Ch 9 of Hilchos Teshuva:
הל”ב
ומפני זה נתאוו כל ישראל נביאיהם וחכמיהם לימות המשיח כדי שינוחו ממלכיות שאינן מניחות להן לעסוק בתורה ובמצות כהוגן. וימצאו להם מרגוע וירבו בחכמה כדי שיזכו לחיי העולם הבא. לפי שבאותן הימים תרבה הדעה והחכמה והאמת שנאמר {כי מלאה הארץ דעה את ה’ ונא

CS, thanks for addressing my questions.
One point- I don’t think the fact that there was a Nasi or Av Beis Din supports the 1 Moshe in a generation concept. There needed to be a leader, practically, and usually he was the greatest, but that did not mean that he was the main source of spirituality of that generation. Remember the chain did not include the shoftim or melachim- the acknowledged leaders of the time. Other than Moshe, there were always multiple Neviim in the generation, with different missions- and while one may have been more prominent- like Shmuel, that did not mean there were not other Neviim. Once Nevua ended, the chain went to the Anshei Keneses Hagedola- the Rabbanim as a whole, it does not say the mesora went to the Av Beis Din or the Nasi. The task of passing on the mesora, bringing down the Shechina was on all Rabbanim as teachers of Torah Sh’Bal Pe. Moshe as one leader was necessary since the Torah that he received is One. But that came with a danger- relying too much on one individual mortal to connect to Hashem- as we see what happened with Chet HaEgel.

You have acknowledged what most of us have suspected, that chabad thinks they are the true and only derech, the only way Mashiach will come, the rest of us are left out in the dark, nebach, but that is how it is in the world of hierarchy. well, the rest of us disagree. Mashiach can come from anyone. We are all trying to be oveid Hashem in the best way for each of us, and hope our actions will make us worthy to bring Mashiach. There are 70 Panim L’Torah, 12 shevatim, multiple LEGITIMATE paths to Avodas Hashem. Elu V’Elu Divrei Elokim Chaim. There is much Torah out there that supports that there are other derachim. In fact, you might argue that since the 7-generation-7-Rebbes–bringing-Mashiach concept did not work out the way Chabad expected it to, that maybe the concept was wrong. It’s funny how you bring the GRA down as an example of someone who could not be Mashiach or bring Mashiach because he was not Chabad, Well, the GRA sent his talmidim to E”Y. Many thought that was the beginning of the days of Mashaich. He was supposed to join them. There are many stories about how he set out for E”Y but turned back, because the time was not yet ripe for Mashiach, implying that the GRA had a lot to do with bringing about Mashiach. I know a story is not evidence, and no one knows what went on with the GRA, but it shows you that there are sparks of Mashiach everywhere. Chazal say that Chizkiyahu Hemelech could have been Mashiach, but the generation was not worthy. R’ Akiva believed at first that Bar Kochva was Mashiach. Neither Chizkiyahu nor Bar Kochva were Chabad Tzaddikim. So if in the past Mashiach could come from other sources, same applies for now. And good thing for that, since as you admitted, there are no Chabad TAzddikim right now.

Since we are all being intellectually honest here (I think): can you answer this question:
Tomorrow Mashiach comes. And he is Litvish. Or Sefardi. Or a Gerrer Chassid, etc. Will you accept him?

@sechelhayashar
I don’t think Daas yochid deserves to be attacked. I don’t know why you’re so surprised she doesn’t have Moshiach on on her mind whenever she does a Mitzvah. If you’re not a lubavitcher you probably don’t study inyonei moshiach ugeula, and then it seems like some fairy candyland that’s obviously not gonna be the focus of your life even though you believe in it.

About misnagdim in general: the Frierdiker Rebbe said that there is no such thing as real misnagdim anymore. There was-once upon a time, misnagdim who honestly thought that Chassidus-and here I mean all, not just Lubavitch- was a danger to yiddishkeit and fought tooth and nail against them out of a real sense of yiras shomayim. Like the holy Gra for example.

The gra was fed cnn style news about the Alter Rebbe: he was told how the head of the “Katt” was seen eating on Tisha bav with his chassidim with a female on his lap. His informers conveniently forgot to mention that Tisha bav the year of the incident had fallen out on Shabbos, so it was nidche, and the female was his 3 year old granddaughter…

But any old legitimate suspicions against chassidus has been debunked over a century ago. So now there are no real misnagdim, and if someone has an axe to grind against Lubavitch and refuses to have any serious discussion, it’s just a poor fellow with some middos that can use allot of work.

Like that fellow who boasted how he tries to insult or embarrass every Lubavitcher her comes in contact with by telling him his daughter once saw a Lubavitcher putting on Tefillin close to shkiah… Like I don’t even know what to say. At least this Lubavitcher was trying to accomplish a positive thing, albeit in the wrong time. But relishing a chance to insult a fellow Jew is not any kind of Mitzvah, in fact it’s quite the opposite. And as a person who has an ego, I try not to flaunt my flaws in public, much less boast about them so I can’t even understand this guy. The best response to these people is silence, and don’t honor them with the title misnagdim because they can’t be called that if that have no clue what they are against and haven’t ever looked into it. Their unfortunate middos have nothing to do with yiras shomayim.

But someone like Daas yochid i completely understand and I don’t think she is an unfortunate fellow at all. She strikes me as quite smart with a quick grasp of the nuances at play here. She’s just checking what we’re actually saying. A normal fellow doesn’t hint to be a Navi, much less Moshiach (that’s why I first explained what a tzaddik is, no a tzaddik is not”normal”), so she’s just checking he also didn’t say other things like eat on yk CVS. Which, once you get what a tzaddik is you’d realize that wouldn’t happen because a tzaddik would never contravene Torah.

And in general, when people feel attacked they’re less likely to really be open to anything you say vdal.

@daasyochid one thing I should clarify is that if a lubavitcher tells you straight out that he doesn’t think the Rebbe is Moshiach you can believe him. He won’t lie to you-an aveira, because he thinks it’s not bofen hamiskabel. So there is no valid reason to not believe our friend sechel hayashar, who seems quite dismayed that I would even discuss such sensitive subjects and has flat out stated he does not think the Rebbe can be Moshiach.

At the same time, I should say the guy who was out to insult Lubavitch actually gave a big compliment ironically. The worst thing he could find was someone trying to do a Mitzvah in the wrong time. Halevai… We’re for the most part normal people, not tzaddikim not even beinonim. Just hopefully wanna be beinonim. Hopefully we can aspire to reach the expectation that the guy who is out to get Lubavitch expects of us… We should be only involved with positive things. Lchaim!

@WTP I don’t think this is deliberate, but I think you’re taking what I said the wrong way. So let me explain again. I think I was the one who pointed out there were many other legitimate leaders of BY at the time of Moshe Rabbeinu and they all had their own drachim that were legitimate paths to serve Hashem. There still was a Moshe Rabbeinu though. Also with the Rebbe- many other leaders of klal Yisrael from all walks of life came to consult with and visit the Rebbe, but they all led their flocks in their own ways, and that’s how it’s meant to be. No one said everyone is meant to be Lubavitch, there are meant to be many complementary paths to Hashem and each one supports the rest. For example, Chabad primarily focuses on outreach, while Satmar focuses on bikur cholim and chesed within the frum world. Both add, both are important and both are necessary. As stated earlier klal Yisrael is like a body, all parts need to function differently to create a healthy whole. If even the feet don’t work, the whole body, including the head, is missing out. The Rebbe once said that it’s a good thing Satmar protests Zionism so we don’t need to take that on. They do that it’s their job. Should everyone learn chassidus? Yes, as that mindset is the mindset of geula. Should everyone become a lubavitcher shliach? No we need diversity to be a healthy whole.

Now something I realized I haven’t been clear. I don’t think the 7 generation correlation was meant to say that were the only ones drawing down the shechina as that’s quite ridiculous an clearly wrong. Every time any he does a Mitzvah, he brings down more Elokus to the world. The 7 generation thing was meant to answer why us? Why are we the ones tasked to bring Moshiach? Why not a better earlier generation? We’re not even worthy and maybe not even interested… So the Rebbe brought the 7gen thing to answer that just as Moshe Rabbeinu was the one to bring down the shechina, even though the process began with Avrahom avinu, and Moshe Rabbeinu wasn’t a greater tzaddik than Avrahom avinu, he just merited this zechus because he was seventh. Same with us. We’re not amazing that we have this mission, aderabe many other generations were much better. We just merit this because we’re seventh.

So chizkiyahu was the Moshiach shebador until it failed. Don’t get what the problem is.

“Tomorrow Mashiach comes. And he is Litvish. Or Sefardi. Or a Gerrer Chassid, etc. Will you accept him?”

Of course! As long as he comes already! That’s what I’m saying this whole discussion is a side point the main thing, and this every Lubavitcher should agree on, is to bring Moshiach!!

“Certainly everything we do as Yidden is it most certainly should be sourced in emuna which is an emotion”
Emunah is NOT an emotion. That would validate every belief system out there. Emunah is rooted in absolute knowledge. Much as the uman (aleph – mem – nun) KNOWS his profession, so too the one with emunah (its root being, once again, aleph – mem – nun) is one with complete KNOWLEDGE, NOT FAITH-based and certainly not emotion-based belief, of HaShem’s existence.

“Sorry but I still can’t find where it says Nasi hador hu hamoshiach shebedor or anything like it. Can someone please give me an EXACT source?”

Here is the link. If it is not allowed, then just Google the above words in Hebrew and click on the chabadapedia page that comes up for a full list of sources and definitions.

http://chabadpedia.co.il/index.php/נשיא_הדור

Also “from what I’ve read so far the Lubavitch rebbes are the Moshe Rabbeinus of the dor because that’s what they said. Did I miss something here?”

Not to my knowledge, meaning I don’t know of another source that supports that, you obviously wouldn’t find it in gemara as it wasn’t applicable then, but I think any rational person who is looking for emes will count the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a reliable source.

“And another thing: the Tikkunei Zohar (112a) says that the ispashtuso of Moshe is in each generation “in each tzaddik and chochom who learn Torah up to [the number] 600,000”. So why does ChabadShlucha say there is only one person in each generation?”

Hmm I was not aware of that thanks for sharing! I will look into that and be happy to be corrected. I’ll lyk iyh.

“No, I didn’t know that, and I wonder whether anybody else outside of lubavitch does. In fact, I wonder whether R Baruch Ber himself knew of it.”

I would be happy to bring proof but the cynicism here dissuades me…

So many points to address… I’ll try to get to some of them.

Mitzvos are רצונו יתברך. I haven’t heard otherwise

I wouldn’t have expected you to, but the clear message I’ve gotten from the Lubavicher people I know is that their kavana when doing mitzvos is to please the Rebbe and bring Moshiach. Of course, if you would ask if it’s Hashem’s ratzon, the answer would be yes, but you seem to misunderstand my objection as being against moshiach, ch”v, buy it’s not; it’s against the unhealthy focus.

I’ll put it this way, I’m young enough to be born after the Rebbes histalkus.

I hope what you seem to experience, focus on other things besides moshiach, is more prevalent than is my impression.

I’m puzzled by your use of the word “histalkus”. Why does it seem to me that even non meshichist Lubavichers can’t seem to directly acknowledge that the Rebbe passed away?

The normal term people use for this is “petirah”.

“One hundred and sixty nine posts later, you still have not answered what is the disagreement between the Lubavitcher “meshichists” and the Lubavitcher non-meshichists. (And what percentage of Lubavitchers are meshichists and what percent non-meshichists, in your best guess.)”

Ah an important point. Fine. So I think if you’ve been following much of the discussion, especially between me and sechel hayashar, you’ll see it’s very nuanced, and these terms can mean something else to everyone, especially my generation which never saw the Rebbe. And as it gets more nuanced, and we study more of what the Rebbe said, the differences become much more lessened until you can have today, someone like me can marry someone with the views of sechel hayashar, because we both follow the Rebbe and it’s teachings and a way of reading Rambam isn’t gonna make or break a marriage.

Whereas 20 years ago, feelings were running steering, shuls split over this, communities split over this because they were still in shock and reacting strongly to gimmel tammuz.

In general, meshichist means someone who thinks the Rebbe is Moshiach, and non meshichists means the ones who don’t.

Alternatively, meshichists are the ones who think they need to convince everyone that the Rebbe is Moshiach, and non meshichists think this is something applicable just to lubavitchers and there’s no reason to yell this loud and proud, especially without context as this is not bofen hamiskabel.

So it’s kind of tough to define to an exact number because what people can mean can be very different.

Then there’s some people like mother of shluchim was saying, who are thugs. Well there’s very harsh, another way to term them is irresponsible teens who just go after excitement, kind of like what people were talking about lots of the peleg bachurim.

Everything in discussing doesn’t apply to those people because I’m talking about a legitimate path in avodas Hashem, and obviously, immature teens who don’t learn and just create trouble, don’t qualify to me. And what I was saying about not minding my son going a bit extreme as a teen, this is definitely not what I meant. Violence is never ok, I meant taking his learning a bit over the top, like Oirois dTohu without the keilim of tikkun kind of thing.

So according to definition a) I’d think many Lubavitchers subscribes to the Meshichist description besides maybe two yeshivos- so let’s say 50% or up.
10% average- not meshichist
40% don’t really care either way. This is all the young people, and based on my experience, so it’s an opinion and I can be corrected.

According to the second definition:

Meshichists: 20-40% -ie almost all lubavitcher Israelis, and everyone else with an exception here and there, non Meshichist.

Also “from what I’ve read so far the Lubavitch rebbes are the Moshe Rabbeinus of the dor because that’s what they said. Did I miss something here?”

Not to my knowledge, meaning I don’t know of another source that supports that, you obviously wouldn’t find it in gemara as it wasn’t applicable then, but I think any rational person who is looking for emes will count the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a reliable source.

That’s not at all rational. We accept people as gedolim because of the opinion of other gedolim, usually from the previous generation.

In this case, some considered the Lubavicher Rebbe to be a gadol, and some most definitely did not, but outside of Lubavich, I don’t think anyone considered him to be THE gadol hador.

We don’t accept someone’s greatness on their own say so. That’s silly.

If I told you that I see Eliyahu Hanavi every night, you would probably believe me – because, after all, would someone who has gilui Eliyahu lie to you?

@chabadshlucha
Or should I say chabadSHLIACH since it’s quite obvious you are getting information from elsewhere, or rather your husband took over for you completely. You almost had us fooled as how much more knowledgeable in Torah you lubavitch woman are than the rest of us, but that’s not my point.

Just wanted to sincerely ask as someone who knows a lot about chabad and has spent unfortunately too much time in crown heights, why is it ok to stop in middle of davening kabbalas shabbos to Hashem, in the middle of lecha Dodi, to start jumping up and down fervently and sing yechi adoneinu for TEN minutes at the top of your lungs towards the Rebbes chair in 770!
Quite honestly would you do that if you truly saw the Rebbe in front of you? Do you think he would wave you on?
I don’t care that it’s meschichist tzfatim, this goes over the line and it’s happening in front of your eyes.
The Rebbe at one point even scolded people looking at him during davening and was very emotional about it.
And you dare to pull this off in middle of davening!

it says strait out in rambam that whoever doesn’t believe in moshiach is a koifer.

“The gra was fed cnn style news about the Alter Rebbe: he was told how the head of the “Katt” was seen eating on Tisha bav with his chassidim with a female on his lap. His informers conveniently forgot to mention that Tisha bav the year of the incident had fallen out on Shabbos, so it was nidche, and the female was his 3 year old granddaughter…”

I know that is what they say and it is quoted in Sefer Bais Rebbi, however do you really think the entire Cherem was only based on that so-called fact? Do you think that was the ultimate factor.

Even according to the above mentioned בית רבי there was the issue with Chasidus of Kalisk, who even Chabad considered them as Apikorsim , which was another factor. (It is mentioned that there was a debate in the town of Shklov, and they lost the debate due to the above chasidim – they were extremists – similar to nowadays Meshichists’)

In fact, the ones familiar with the shitas Talmidie haGRA have a total different story, they say the hisnagdus was not what people think it is. It went way beyond that and, it is really based on the core of Kaballistic yesodos in Emunah .

did u know that Vizhnitz sings Yechi too? they just leave out melech hamoshiach part

Litvisherchosid, that’s nothing. There’s a group in Tzefat that davens to his picture. Some years ago I was told that they had “Rebbe wine”. I said that all they need now are rebbe cookies and they can say “This is the blood and this is the body”.