Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

“@chabadshlucha, I agree with most of want you’re saying besides one thing. “Moshiach Shebador” isn’t a halachic concept, it’s not based on the Rambam, so it’s not the greatest point to bring in an argument.”

Correct me if I’m wondering but I don’t recall saying it is from Rambam, I said the other two are. It comes up allot in chassidus and I’ve read stories of the Baal Shem tov to that effect as well, so it is not a recent concept.

Also I’m not arguing. I think the Litvishe world has the right to understand what we are thinking and where we disagree so I’m educating, not arguing. I feel there is a real interest for the most part as you can judge for yourself by the feedback.

“Secondly, nowhere does it says that the משה שבדור is משיח שבדור.”

Please look up the phrase “Nassi Hador hu haMoshiach shebador.” Nassi Hador is another way of saying Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation, just shorter:). If you still can’t find it, I’ll Google it myself and tell you an exact source, although as a fellow Lubavitcher I’d be surprised if you haven’t come across it yet.

“Saying it will not help you prove you point. I don’t understand why you are seemingly trying to validate or legitimise beliefs that are based on emotion, not intellect through logic.”

Certainly everything we do as Yidden is it most certainly should be sourced in emuna which is an emotion. However, especially especially as Chabad chassidim, we endeavor to bring this emuna down into the rational would so our mind can agree with it as well. And this is very very important. If you believe you are a butterfly, people will think you are crazy because that is not their experience. Some extreme people may even label you an apikoris:) but if you can prove how you are, you won’t seem silly anymore.

I’m just giving over what I’ve taught and seen for myself. I think the world has the right to know it especially as there some people running around looking crazy because they don’t bother explaining how they got there. To the uninitiated eye btw, all Jews can look crazy too. So it’s not about how why look it’s about why. You’re welcome to disagree with me and explain how you draw a different conclusion. But I think it is high time that all lubavitchers as all Jews, should stick together, because people don’t differentiate, and if you label meshichistim crazy to the oilam you come in contact with, they’ll in turn ok at you as bring crazy for being a lubavitcher. So pirud doesn’t help anyone, achdus helps everyone. That’s what I believe and that’s why I’m here. And I know this is a Torah value, not just my belief.

If I were trying to defend or explain it, I would simply say, that Chassidim believe that their Rebbe was the most worthy of being Moshiach, were he to come in his time. Such belief is no novelty, it’s seen in the Gemara, and in past generations there were other Chassidim who believed this about their Rebbe, (such as Vizhnitz).

This is true. Another point to bring in eventually. But you do yo see we are a bit different, no one else goes to the lengths we do and are as passionate about it. So I though I’ll just give the inside scoop.

To conclude, never ever, not even once did the rebber ever declare or otherwise insinuate that he was Moshiach. ( Once, Rabbi L Groner, a secretary of the Rebbe handed the Rebbe a letter which had been received and was addressed to “Moshiach”, the Rebbe said “I’ll give it to him when he comes”.

I haven’t addressed that yet.

That said, if someone chooses to believe that the Rebbe or any Rebbe is Moshiach, that doesn’t make him a Kofer or anything. It may be foolish to believe so after his passing, but definitely isn’t assur in any way, shape or form.

See above as to why I think this attitude ruins things for everyone.

Chabadshlucha,

The part that’s universal is that we all have a breakfast, which at it’s core, is one with Hashem

Right, but some (Chabad) eat it before davening, while most wait until afterwards.

to 770 Chabad: re your first post . Maybe you should have left out the “mamish” at the end to preserve achdus and put some distance between this and minut. A fig leaf. ynwim?

twisted, a refugee from Chabad.

@Chabadshlucha

The Rebbe explicitly said the Nasi shebedor is the Moshiach shebedor, and he aknowledged that he was the Nasi. The Rebbe also explicitly said that the memaleh makom contains all of the qualities of the previous Nasi plus more. The Rebbe also referred to himself as being the last Nasi.

The Rebbe also said Moshiach is alive in this world and it is a mitzvah to be mekusher to him.

If somehow you believe that The Rebbe was not the last Nasi, and is therefore not by his definition Moshiach, then if you were truly a chossid of The Rebbe you would follow his directive to seek out and become a chossid of the new Nasi, who by The Rebbe’s definition is currently holding the office of Moshiach of the Generations.

Please reconcile your above stated opinions with the fact that neither you, nor anyone accepted in mainstream Chabad, have sought out or bound yourselves to a new Rebbe.

?????

“However, we do have the old klal of the Rambam in sefer haMorah, that logic prevails over simple pshat.

Is there anything logical about saying that in every generation, there is a leader (or leaders) who essentially don’t have bechirah?”

Well, to be honest, and speaking about the Rambam – the Rambam in sefer HaMorah P/2: 32 regarding נבואה calls that logic:

“דעת המון הפתאים”

I will quote it in full:

דעות בני אדם בנבואה כדעותם בקדמות העולם וחידושו – אני רוצה בזה כי כמו שאלו שהתבאר אצלם מציאות האלוה יש להם שלש דעות בקדמות העולם וחידושו כחו שבארנו כן הדעות עוד בנבואה שלש. ולא אפנה לדעת אפיקורוס שהוא לא יאמין מציאות אלוה כל שכן שלא יאמין נבואה ואמנם אכון לזכרון דעות מאמין האלוה בנבואה:

הדעת הראשון – והוא דעת המון הפתאים ממי שיאמין בנבואה וקצת המון אנשי תורתנו גם כן יאמינהו – והוא שהאלוה ית’ יבחר מי שירצה מבני אדם וישרה בו הנבואה וישלחהו – אין הפרש בין שיהיה האיש ההוא אצלם חכם או סכל רב השנים או צעיר השנים אלא שהם יתנו בו גם כן קצת טוב ותקון מדות – כי בני אדם עד עתה לא אמרו שישרה האלוה שכינתו על אדם רע אלא כשיחזירהו למוטב תחלה לפי זה הדעת:

Sechel/Chabad:

“@daas yochid @gaon I remember learning, Chet can mean chisaron, meaning for their level, more was expected of them, not that it was an actual aveira.”

Well, I know that is the answer they generally give… However, as I have said, its quiet difficult to recreate the entire Pshat and literal meaning of a Pasuk.

On the other hand, I will give you an answer ‘Al Pi Chasidus :
(Disclaimer, I’m not Chabad ’: ) –

Read carefully how The Magid of Mezritch explains the Chet of Avrohom Avinu in Sefer Magid DeVorov L’Yaakov – Ohr Torah” in the הוספות part — אות ג Read the footnote as well.

Based on that, it is possible to have a Chet no matter which level you are, being that after all you are an immortal Baser V’dam. Though, the Chet is not due m’Zad haNefesh HaChiyuni, rather from the Guf, which can be very well be the way he would interpret “chet” mentioned in Kehales as well.
I will quote:

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19784&st=&pgnum=421
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19784&st=&pgnum=422

ויפול אברהם על פניו ויצחק, ויאמר בלבו הלבן מאה שנים יולד ואם שרה הבת תשעים שנה תלד — ומשה רבינו מסביר להם להילדים — בי כל הפירושים’ אמת הם. ואין מקרא יוצא מדי פשוטו, ואם תאמרו איך אפשר הדבר אשר אברהם יהי׳ מסתפק במאמר השם,
תדעו אשר זהו מצד הגוף ואשר גם גוף קדוש בשר הואי

In the footnotes:

..,בעת ההיא ששמעתי את השיר והזמרה דאמירת מזמורי תהלים ]של האנשים פשוטים, כפי שהראה הבעש״ט לתלמידיו החבריא קדישא[— מספר כ״ק מורנו הרב המגיד לכ״ק רבנו הזקן — הי׳ לי כעין שפיכת הנפש וגעגועים גדולים באהבה בתענוגים אשר כמוהו לא זכיתי עדיין עד אז, והפאנטאפעל שלי היו רטובים מזיעה ודמעות של תשובה פנימית מעומקא דלבא

. …כ״ק רבנו הזקן מספר להוד כ״ק אאזמו״ר אדמו׳׳ר הרה״ק צמח צדק, אשר כ״ק מורו ורבו הרב המגיד אמר לו, אשר זמן רב היי בצער גדול על אשר הרהר אז אחרי רבו, ועשה כמה תיקונים לתקן דבר זה ולא יכול להרגיע את עצמו מדוע הרהר אחרי רבו.

באחד הלילות ראה מחזה נעלה ונשגב — מה המחזה לא סיפר אז כ׳׳ק רבנו הזקן לכ״ק אאזמו״ר אדמו״ר הרה׳יק צמח צדק, כי אם בשבוע שקודם הסתלקותו’ סיפר לו —

בהלכי חזרה — מספר כ״ק מורנו הרב המגיד לכ״ק רבנו הזקן — בהיכלות דגן עדן עברתי דרך היכל אחד אשר תינוקות של בית רבן יושבים ולומדים חומש, ומשה רבינו יושב בראש השלחן, כל התינוקות אשר בהיכל ההוא למדו פרשת לך, ואחד התינוקות אמר בקול רם הכתוב ויפול אברהם . . בשר הוא[כבפנים
אז — מספר כ״ק רבנו הזקן לכ׳׳ק אאזמו״ר אדמו״ר הרה״ק צמח צדק — כשמוע כ׳׳ק מורי ורבי אשר מצד הגוף יכולים להיות כמה מחשבות והרהורים הבאים בדרך ממילא ומאיליו, הנה זה הרגיע את רוחו של כ״ק מורי ורבי נ״ע.

@avik and @chaimeliezer if you stick around to the end and follow the discussion, I think you won’t be left with these questions. If you are I’ll be happy to answer.

@WTP:
1. You called these concepts “chassidus 101” which means that they are true for all chassidus, and are not just Chabad/tanya tenets?

what is unique about Chabad chassidus and why it is termed this, is because the Rebbeim too these lofty neshama and Elokus concepts, some of which we have been discussing, and made it understandable to the laymen. All other chassidus groups follow the ways of chassidus such as having a Rebbe, but don’t have a systematic understandable path of how the layman can grow in his avodas Hashem without the tzaddiks direct influence. So when I say chassidus 101 I am referring to Chabad chassidus.

Presumably, every group will believe that their Rebbe is a tzaddik.

There were more tzaddikim before the war, but it seems train now are in short supply as per a conversation I had with the granddaughter of another Rebbe.

You stated that the tzaddik has the neshama of Moshe Rabbeinu, and every generation has one. But if every group has a tzaddik, then every group has its Moshe Rabbeinu? Or are some Rebbes/Tzaddikim bigger than others, and the rest are just imposters (no disrespect to any Rebbe meant, just trying to understand how this fits the bigger picture).

Neither. Just like by Moshe Rabbeinu, there were many leaders- the 70 judges, the Princes of the Shvatim etc. who we all leaders and tzaddikim, but there was only one Moshe Rabbeinu, so to in every generation…

Along a similar vein, when you quoted from the Rebbe that he was the 7th generation, implying that like the Avos, each Rebbe brought the shechina down one level, with the last Rebbe having the mission to complete the process and bring Mashiach, my question is: what about all the other great Tzaddikim/Rebbeim thru the generations outside of the chain of Chabad- they were not capable of this too? why exclude the Besht and the Maggid of Mezeritch and Rav Shmelke and the Noam Elimelech, just to name a famous few?

Firstly it wasn’t just the Avos, it was the leaders of seven generations from the Avos through Moshe. Amram was one as well, I can look up the medrash or maybe seven hayashar or anyone else can fill in the others. I think it was Levi Kehas Amram, Moshe.

2. I think you are saying that being a tzaddik is not a process a person can do himself, as you call it a gift from Hashem. It is not that someone worked on himself to get to this level, but that Hashem chooses a leader in each generation and bestows on him the level of Tzaddik. Would that be correct?

Sort of. A person does all within his power, and once he reaches the level of beinoni and tries to also feel disgust for bad like a tzaddik, then Hashem will bestow the madreiga of tzaddik upon him.

Does that explain the Rebbe hierarchy (in any chassidus)- how automatically a son/son-in law/ nearest relative takes over from the previous Rebbe and becomes a Tzaddik, no matter what his age or level of Torah learning?

Firstly, it doesn’t always work that way, the Maggid of Mezritch was not physically related to the Baal Shem Tov and neither was the Baal HaTanya related to the Maggid for two examples.

But if the son/in law merits the title he comes before everyone else.

Secondly, I’m not sure if this is unique to Chabad, but the chassidim have to approve and accept the new Rebbe- one of the reasons no one became the new Rebbe- we haven’t found anyone of the Rebbe’s caliber or a tzaddik, to replace him.

Hope that answers and I really enjoyed these questions

It is therefore deeply troubling that R’ M.M. Schneersohn did not designate a successor.

He thought he was moshiach and didn’t need a succesor.

GAON, your quotation in post #1408986 seems to have nothing to do with what you claim it’s talking about.

Continued:

So in nun aleph, nun beis, when this Moshiach excitement was going on, along with the hints, every chossid, from what I hear, expected the Rebbe to reveal himself as Moshiach and lead all Yidden to eretz Yisrael.

Halfway through nun beis- 1992, the Rebbe had a stroke. After the stroke, the chassidim thought this must be an obstacle we must go through before Moshiach is revealed, so they kept up their belief and hope in the Rebbe’s words. They also would quite often burst into the song of Yechi, addressing the Rebbe as Moshiach and the Rebbe would nod his head encouraging the song. Up until gimmel tammuz, nun daled -94, no one would dare even say that maybe the Rebbe won’t get better…

Until one day. Gimmel tammuz hit us. And there was no sicha of the Rebbe to explain what happened. (Some chassidim see a sicha said on gimmel tammuz years earlier to address this situation.)

Here for the first time there was a split.

Some chassidim said Look things didn’t work out according to plan, so that’s it. The games up and the Rebbe was nistalek and there must be some explanation for this but that’s it, we’re orphaned from our Rebbe and we’ll try to live by his teachings and continue in his party and keep his memory alive. These people will speak of the Rebbe in past tense etc.

So in nun aleph, nun beis, when this Moshiach excitement was going on, along with the hints, every chossid, from what I hear, expected the Rebbe to reveal himself as Moshiach and lead all Yidden to eretz Yisrael.

Did he announce, on erev Yom Kippur in nun aleph, that moshiach had come and there’s no need to fast?

The Rebbe never did anything that Rambam say that Mashiach will do. He did not fight wars. He did not bring Jews back to EY (in fact, Chabad is anti-aliya) , he did not build the Bet HaMikdash, he did not bring universal peace. Moreover, Rambam says in Iggeret Teiman that Mashiach will arise in EY and the Rebbe was never here in his life. Not to mention the fact that Mashiach will be a political leader and the Rebbe (unlike Bar Kochba) was not.

Rand0m3x,
your quotation in post #1408986 seems to have nothing to do with what you claim it’s talking about.”

I won’t quote the entire Rambam, but if you really learn through the Rambam in entire, then yes, the very concept (regarding Nevuah which is to applied here) of just “picking” someone without him having to work on it is “silly”.

Chabadshlucha,

So when I say chassidus 101 I am referring to Chabad chassidus.

For the purposes of respectful interactions, it’s probably best to write out Chabad chassidus when interacting with Jews who are not Lubavitchers. If someone explained a non-Chabad idea to you and told you he was explaining Judaism to you, you’d probably be offended.

Chaim Eliezer,

How could the Rebbe have been so irresponsible as to orphan his Chssidim? Is it any wonder they have been subject to troubling ideas about him?

This doesn’t make sense. We’re not talking about young children here, but grown adults, who, per Chabadshlucha and Sechel HaYashar, are as learned or more learned than other Jews.

I don’t know where you get these sheer and utter nonsensical statements from

Which statement are you referring to? Are you referring to my question (not statement) about erev YK?

There’s a video of him saying something which sounds like that; it is touted both by meshichists to prove he is moshiach, and by antis, to prove he was delusional.

I’m asking for CS’s take on it.

@ChabadShlucha,
Who told you that ‘וילחם מלחמת ה means sending out shluchim and being mekarev Yidden? Is that the pshat in the rambam? Please read the Rambam again, with an intellectually honest outlook, and you’ll see that the Rebbe wasn’t Chezkas Moshiach. FYI, I’m a regular Lubavitcher, I do Chitas and Rambam, and I go on Mivtzoim every Friday…

Chabadshlucha I eagerly await your answers to my questions. Obviously you would not mislead the public about The Rebbe’s teachings, so I am sure you must have gevaldig answers.

@Joseph
The reason there is no Rebbe after The Rebbe is because The Rebbe said he is the final leader of Chabad. He said in his very first discourse that there were six generations which preceded him, i.e. The Baal Hatanya, The Mitteler Rebbe, The Tzemach Tzedek etc. and that the 7th generation is the final generation and will draw down the shechina into the lowest world and will greet moshiach.

Please read the Rambam again, with an intellectually honest outlook, and you’ll see that the Rebbe wasn’t Chezkas Moshiach.

Of course. So why does such a high percentage of Chabad believe he is moshiach (with the prime disagreement being whether to be public about it – perhaps it’s not “Bkeilim dtikkun- in ways that are acceptable within this world”)?

I think if Chabad would place more of a focus on regular learning (the lack of which is lamented by many old time Lubavichers), they wouldn’t twist things to fit their emotional agenda.

Daas,

ואין מקרא יוצא מדי פשוטו”
Can’t we just leave it at that?”

Well, if we leave it at that – it will be going ‘’לכתחילה אריבער 🙂
(ask Chabad what that means)

In any case, not always doi we apply the Klal of ואין מקרא יוצא מדי פשוטו .
There is a known rule of ר’ סעדיה גאון in ספר אמונות ודעות

I will quote the highlights:

ספר אמונות ודעות, מאמר שביעי :א

ואומר תחלה, כי מן הידוע באמתות הדברים שכל דבר שנמצא במקרא הרי הוא כפשוטו, זולתי מה שאי אפשר לפרשו כפשוטו מחמת אחת מארבע סיבות:

…..או מפני שהחוש דוחה אותו, כעין אמרו
….או שהשכל דוחה אותו, כאומרו
….או שיש מקרא מפורש הסותרו, צריך לבאר את שאינו מפורש, כגון אמרו
….וכן כל מה שנאמר לנו במסורת שיש בו תנאי נפרשהו פירוש המתאים למסורת האמיתית.

The Tanya does bring Psukim and other Chazal to back up his statement …so we need to see how it may fit into the above.

“Who told you that ‘וילחם מלחמת ה means sending out shluchim and being mekarev Yidden? Is that the pshat in the rambam? Please read the Rambam again, with an intellectually honest outlook, and you’ll see that the Rebbe wasn’t Chezkas Moshiach.”

If I’m not mistaken there may be a sicha on it, I definitely learned that somewhere but I don’t remember the exact source unfortunately, and I would think that it it is a sicha you would have come across it. Look, when you read it it reads wars, but notice the Rambam doesn’t use a lashon like milchamos haumos, milchemes got umagog or what have you, he specifically said milchemes Hashem, and as all mefarshim, geonim etc through the Taz and Bach wrote their peirushim with ruach hakodesh, I could definitely see how this could refer to a spiritual was for Hashem. Being that you’ve seen the Rebbe express this many times when explaining the exact words Rashi chose, I’m not sure why this would surprise you?

“FYI, I’m a regular Lubavitcher, I do Chitas and Rambam, and I go on Mivtzoim every Friday…”

Lol this cracked me up. I don’t have any doubts on your chassidishkeit, your understanding of a Rambam has nothing to do with your chassidishkeit so really I’m sort of honored you feel the need to excuse yourself, but no need at all!

@5ish I’m trying to answer the questions in order, and I don’t recall skipping yours. Can you either repost, or wait until there are no more questions and I’ll scroll through all until I find yours?

@avrammd if you want to ask these kind of questions, it would be a good idea to see the Rambam in the original. It’s hilchos melachim prakim 11-12. Just to answer, it says Yilchom- as in present ongoing tense. Then if he finishes it, plus the other two conditions, then he is Moshiach vadai.