Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

Moshiachat: “The first pshat of Rashi is min hameisim idk why ur saying it’s not. ”

We’ve been through all this before and once again it is being ignored by those who don’t seem to care about CHazal or Rishonim. Rashi explains that the Gemoro means that if Moshiach WAS [note past tense] someone who has already died then it WAS [again past tense] Doniel.

That Rashi does not allow room to say that Moshiach was any dead person other than Doniel. To use it to say, “The GEmoro says it could have been a dead person so I’m saying it was the lubavitcher rebbe” is IMHO close to apikorsus because it is מגלה פנים שלא כהלכה.

Moshiachat again: “There were plenty of nonlubavitchers who said the Rebbe couldn’t be moshiach because nobody today is worthy of it and it will be someone from the dead.”

There are many non-lubavitcher who said that yoshke is moshiach!

Can you name me ehrliche Yidden who said that nobody [alive] is worthy of it and it will be someone from the dead? I have never heard anything more ridiculous.

Moshiachat wrote: The Rebbe said in the footnote, being a devoted chosid, that we specifically say “Yosef is his name” based on the Previous Rebbes first name.

Did you intentionally omit that in the same footnote (perhaps it was one or two later) he wrote that Menachem is his name?

Thanks DaaS for the upload!

While we’re talking about different Gedolim, I want to add, that one of the major Poskei Doreinu, the Shevet HaLevi, Harav Hagaon Rav Vosner z”l, was an admirer of the Rebbe and Chassidus Chabad in general, he had a relationship with the Frierdiker Rebbe going back to the 1930’s, and had a Yechidus with the Frierdiker Rebbe several times.

In Sivan of 1976 Harav Vosner had a lengthy (three quarters of an hour) Yechidus with the Rebbe, and the Rebbe personally escorted him out.

During the Shloshim for the Kedoshim of Mumbai, (who’s Yartzait is this week) in a telephone address, Rav Vosner said the following:

“Regarding the shluchei Chabad it is fitting to apply the saying of our Sages in the Midrash Raba: ‘There is none more beloved to Hashem than a shliach who is sent to do a mitzva and is moser nefesh to be successful in his shlichus.’ How fitting these words are to the Chabad shluchim, who are undoubtedly beloved to Hashem for being moser nefesh to spread Judaism and to make the name of heaven beloved all over the world.”

At the Siyum HoRambam in Yerushalayim in 5772, Rav Vosner spoke, and among his remarks said the following:

“This great thing that the Rebbe did, that we unite in the study of Rambam, and by doing so we hasten the coming of Moshiach. The Rambam begins with the laws of faith in the Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah and ends with faith with the Hilchos Melachim. That is the uniqueness of the Rambam’s work that it begins and ends with emuna and it includes all the mitzvos that pertain nowadays and that do not pertain nowadays.”

The Shevet HaLevi would send his seforim to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe would send back comments on his Tshuvos.

After meeting with the Rebbe, Rav Vosner remarked that he was prepared for the Rebbes memory, as it was well known, but he remarked, “ober aza amkus”.

Rav Vosners reputation as a Posek and Tzadik speaks for itself, and his relationship with Chabad speaks for itself.

I still dont understand how you guys (lubavitchers) are still playing the underdog and using the “everyone hates us”. How can anyone even take you seriously or have any repect for you when all you have done all these years was to bash litvishe and chassidishe Gedoilim. Saying things about the Chazon Ish things like jealous of a little boy learning tanya in tomchei temimim lubavitch? How dare you! Look at pictures of the heilige Tzaddikim and you will be sitting in awe! The GR”A, Chazon Ish, the Chofetz Chaim, the Stiepler Gaon, Chasam Sofer, Rav Aron Kotler, the Brisker Rav just to name a few. You will bite your tongue for saying such stupidity. You think any of these undisputed Tzaddikim and Gedolei Hador who were versed in ALL TORAH nigleh and nistar, (which even Chabad Rebbes recognized as Gedolei Hador) would be jealous of a kid? This is just truly shameful. If anyone would criticize chabad rebbeim you would go ballistic but you freely say what you want about others who are on an infinite higher level than you will ever be.
To tell another Yid who does not follow chabad that if he hasnt learned tanya then his Torah is basically meaningless?
This whole thread we are seeing so many excuses and answers for literally everything, even if it means twisting things in order to get your way, including taking the Rebbes words out of context and applying them to your defense when it suits you. And when it doesnt you simply ignore or manipulate it in order for it wo work out for you.
You claim that everyone is a chabad hater when you disrespect everyone freely including their Gedolei Hador. Enough of all these excuses just accept that chabad lubavitch are not the only Yidden in the WORLD! In fact they are a tiny minority. And the only reason you think that only chabad does good or that they dominate is simply due to your close mindedness and constantly making news out of any chabadnick who makes a peep. Ever heard of Satmar Bikur Choilim? Show me something similiar in chabad. Ever heard of Tomchei Shabbos in the Litvishe World? Ever heard of any organization that does 100 times more than Chabad? Obviously you havent because that would be impossible right?
The litvishe and chassidish world have no hatred towards chabad so stop thinking that we are all sitting talking about you nonstop as if we have nothing better to do!
This whole topic/thread only brought out how much more arrogant you are than everyone previously knew.

@NP,
I’m not going to comment on all the names you mentioned, but these two I take issue with:
“The Satmar Rebbe

Rav Hutner”

The Satmar Rebbe, (Rav Yoelish Teitelbaim):
The Satmar Rebbe is often portrayed as a fierce opponent of the Rebbe. This isn’t really the case. The Satmarer did indeed criticize the Rebbes approach to some things, Mivtza Tefilin is one of them, and it’s not inaccurate to say that they definitely didn’t see eye to eye. However, on a personal level, there is no evidence that they “didn’t get along”. In 5714 the Rebbe had a deep discussion with the Satmar Rebbe about aveilus and Kabboloh, and the Satmar Rebbe once attended a Lubavitcher wedding (1948, R Avrohom and Chaya Landa) and the picture of it is possibly one of the clearest pictures of Rav Yoelish in existence. (This was published in the Ami Magazine, December 2013). The Rebbe also took issue with some things that the Satmar Rav said, (Nishtakcha Toras HaBaal Shem) but they always had the greatest respect for one another. The public fight in the 70’s and 80’s was in no way instigated or encouraged by the Satmar Rebbe in any way. The Satmar Rebbes vast knowledge of Torah is well known and respected in Chabad, and 21 Kislev is mentioned on Chabad.org with a brief biography of the Satmar Rebbe.

Rav Hutner Z”L:

Rav Hutner corresponded with the Rebbe many times, and met the Rebbe first in Berlin, and had multiple Yechidusen with him (Mibeis Hagenozim, S.B. Levine, Kehot 2009, p. 88). Rav Hutner even asked the Rebbe for brochos on occasion. It’s definitely possible that he had criticisms of certain things, but it’s quite wrote to portray him as a fierce opponent of the Rebbe. The notion that he was, is based on “anonymous sources” cited by Hillel Goldberg in Between Berlin and Slobodka: Jewish transition figures from Eastern Europe, Ktav Publishing House, 1989. I have certainly never heard such a thing in Lubavitch, and if there was any truth to it you can be sure that it would be known within Chabad.

Regarding Rav Weinberg, do you mean Rav Noach Weinberg?

@nonpolitical

I have enjoyed your posts and questions- you have been unbiased and open to understanding. I think your last post of the three part post, was addressed by my posts last night.

The middle one I agreed with immediately.

Now the first one.

“1. The rebuilding of Yeshivos, Baitai Chinuch, and Bais Yaacov’s is no less an expression of Avavas Yisroel for every Yid then sending Shluchim.”

Agreed.

” It was (and is) and disagreement regarding what you is the best meathod of Harbatzas Torah.”

Not really. Both are necessary. Many leaders of klal yisroel focused on a specific segment of klal yisroel and engaged in one or the other.The Rebbe, as Nossi hador, was responsible for the wellbeing of every Jew, so engaged in both our whatever was necessary.

“2.Demanding Halachic proofs against Mashichist beliefs is besides the point. If you make an error regarding a Halacha in Shulchan Aruch or Ramabam that’s one thing. But let’s say you believe in something for which there is no direct positive evidence and insist that it is your religious duty to believe so based on personal feelings, revelations, miricles, etc. You have just legitimized the revelation narrative of every world religion and cult.”

If a missionary confuses you with his proof and gets you to understand that Torah is cvs wrong, so you would agree to go by this new understanding and believe in AZ cvs because something in Torah doesn’t make sense?

Obviously not. The difference is Yiddishkeit is true, everything else takes a point of Yiddishkeit and mixes in garbage. So you can usually convince an open-minded person to this effect.but the basis of Yiddishkeit needs to be emuna.

The proof we have as lubavitchers is that the Rebbe was a tzadik continuing a line all the way up to the Baal Shem Tov. If you say that we can’t believe something the Rebbe said, then how can we believe anything he says? And the frierdiker Rebbe says,as he was his successor? Etc until the Baal Shem Tov? And as these people were holy tzaddikim, how can you believe any Torah authority? Maybe they’re wrong too? May as well just be a tzeduki or reject torah altogether cvs.

That’s the problem with this rationale. So we don’t understand everything. But the facts are the facts. Moshe emess vsoraso emess.

@3. I take personal offense at the statement made by CS that the Vilna Gaon saw the Alter Rebbe of Lubavich through a key hole, realized that if he would meet him he would have become a chossid and ran away. But this is just a symptom of the above stated problem.”

I didn’t make it up or I would get your personal offense, this is a story I watched the descendent of the Vilna Gaon’s top talmid say is the tradition passed down through the family. Admittedly, knowing the greatness of the Gra, it is a bit shocking, and is not our version.

But people seemed more interested in hearing non lubavitch sources. Maybe take it up with the one who said it.

CS

“* The Bais Hamikdash will not be built in Eretz Yisroel but in 770 and then transported to Eretz Yisroel, since 770 is “the place of Moshiach”

Yeah but again you need to learn the source for context. See kuntres beis Rabbeinu shebibavel 5752”

Can you please explain the context?

@CS

I wrote:
” It was (and is) and disagreement regarding what you is the best meathod of Harbatzas Torah.”

You responded:
Not really. Both are necessary. Many leaders of klal yisroel focused on a specific segment of klal yisroel and engaged in one or the other.The Rebbe, as Nossi hador, was responsible for the wellbeing of every Jew, so engaged in both our whatever was necessary.

It may well be your contention that both are necessary. And I will even grant you that this is not uniquely a Chabbad position. Other Gedolim have certainly expressed support and admiration for the Shluchus program. But it is a matter of FACT that there where (are) others who:
1. Disagree with such an approach altogether for multiple reasons.
2. Hold that regardless of if such an approach is correct or not available resources should be channeled to the other approach.

@ CS

The difference is Yiddishkeit is true, everything else takes a point of Yiddishkeit and mixes in garbage. So you can usually convince an open-minded person to this effect.but the basis of Yiddishkeit needs to be emuna.

An adequate response to this would really go well beyond the scope of this forum. Suffice it to say that Emuna does not mean choosing to believe based on emotion and then using the mind to rationalize that belief.

When you made this point and used it as the Yesod for believing in the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe there where other posters who attacked this as irational. I’m inclined to agree which that (sorry). It is likewise irrational to use personal miricles, success in kiruv, rapid expansion of Chabbad, and their many good works as a Yesod for the belief in the Lubavitcher Rebbes teachings.

What I did was to show that it is eminently rational and appropriate for Lubavitcher Chasidim to follow the teachings of their Rebbe for the reasons that I have already explained earlier.

Which is why I am at loss how you could possibly write the following…

If you say that we can’t believe something the Rebbe said, then how can we believe anything he says? And the frierdiker Rebbe says,as he was his successor? Etc until the Baal Shem Tov? And as these people were holy tzaddikim, how can you believe any Torah authority? Maybe they’re wrong too? May as well just be a tzeduki or reject torah altogether cvs.

@Rso
Practically, even antiMeshichistim disagree with ur reading. They nearly all say it means daniel is the moshiach but, they argue, Rambam doesn’t paskin this way. It’s used ALL the time in arguments. I’ll also add that the Artscroll doesn’t understand it your way either. And for good reason. It cannot mean “if moshiach was from the dead it was Daniel” which would mean moshiach already came and died and was daniel because this clearly contradicts Rav Gidal in the name of RAV earlier on the very same page which says he disputes the idea that moshiach came and died already. A total contradiction. Besides, the Rashi in Ein Yaakov says it differently. As for not applying to anyone else, why not. The reason given for Daniel is hardly particular. Dovid is davka Dovid because there are psukim for it being dovid. But davka Daniel isn’t based on any Psukim. Besides the sdei chemed quotes an opinion which seems to say it’s not davka daniel. And as I’ve already said Reb Nochom of Chernobyl and the Shtefaneshter Rebbe said moshiach would be the Baal Shem tov or the Ruzhiner after their passing. They did not say Daniel.

If ur asking cause ur trying to test me then I wouldn’t answer u. If ur asking because u wanna kno, so then see Rambams Halachas on nevuah. There is a difference between the two but I believe the ruach Hakodosh point was meant to say he was fitting for it. Altho I’m not sure what his kavanah was there. He knows loads of mefarshim on the issue tho, wouldn’t discount it so quickly. Especially when he knows a simple Rambam. Also the Rebbe himself said it is a Nevuah. It’s not about what I say

@SH
While we’re talking about different Gedolim, I want to add, that one of the major Poskei Doreinu, the Shevet HaLevi, Harav Hagaon Rav Vosner z”l, was an admirer of the Rebbe and Chassidus Chabad in general.

We wher not just talking about different Gedolim. You asked for a list of 3 Gedolim who opposed the Rebbe. This was provided.

What is the relevance of this post of yours other then smoke and mirrors? You appear to be attempting to deflect the fact that there where Gedolim who came out against the Lubavitcher Rebbe by quoting a Gadol who held of him.

NP

You haven’t addressed my question to you, above, regarding the Satmar Rebbe and Rav Hutner.

Regarding the Gedolim, I think that we can all agree that we have it established that there were Gedolim who held highly of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a Godol and there were Gedolim who were staunchly opposed to the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

Chat,

“Also the Rebbe himself said it is a Nevuah. It’s not about what I say”

What and how exactly did the Rebbe say so?

Please provide the exact wording.

Phil,

The issue about Moshiach living was addressed by the Ramban (not that it has anything with the Rebbe):

אמרתי לו, … ואתה אדונינו המלך שאלת והקשית לי יפה מהם, שאין במנהג האדם לחיות אלף שנה. ועכשיו אברר לך תשובה לשאלתך, הנה אדם הראשון חיה אלף שנה פחות ע’ שנה, ואלו לא חטא, חיה יותר ויותר או לעולם, והגוים והיהודים כולנו מודים שחטאו וענשו של אדם הראשון יתבטל לימות המשיח, אם כן, אחר שיבא המשיח יהיה בטל מכלנו, אבל במשיח עצמו בטל הוא לגמרי, אם כן ראוי הוא המשיח לחיות אלף ואלפים שנה, או לעולם, וכן המזמור אומר, חיים שאל ממך וגו’, וזה מבואר…

רמב”ן – ספר הוויכוח

@5ish-“This would be no different than saying someone who did not learn a blat gemarah, or a perek mesilas yesharim, or a X Y or Z will be jealous of someone who did.”
Actually it is very different because thats not what was said. If a litvisher would say something about a chabad Rebbe you would not handle it as “calmly” as in this case. It brings you great pleasure to hear such things and to belittle Litvish Gedoilim. In fact the “chossid” who said this said that “he would be jealous of a LITTLE BOY”!
You are only making matters worse how can you dare say that a little boy who knows nothing but introduced to tanya is already on the same level as a FULL GROWN TZADDIK!
All you chabadsters are talking like the tanya is a new TORAH! Its all based on pre-existing Torah and Kaballah which btw Yidden and Tzaddikim have learned throughout the ages. Why do you spew out such hatred towards other Yidden in the name of your tanya? You are doing the opposite kavana of whom wrote it and in fact making people not want to learn it when you degrade even ones Gadol comparing his greatness to some little boy who knows nothing of torah or even life experience but was “introduced to tanya”
Gedoilim were versed in all nigleh and nistar which would include what the tanya is about since it comes from the same Torah. Absolutely despicable.
And stop giving examples of Gedoilim who had respect for the Rebbe. What does that even prove? Does the fact that they had respect for the Rebbe one of your “proofs” that they secretly admitted that they are wrong and that everyone should become lubavitch? What fantasy world do you live in! Many Tzaddikim respected the Rebbe and the Rebbe also respected Tzaddikim outside of chabad.
Everyone had their Gedoilim and Rebbes its only chabad that choose to not quit about “showing off” and putting things in your face about how “great” they are or about how “holier” they are from everyone else.
You meet any Yid Samar,Livish,Belz, Chassidish non chassidish, boro parker, flatbush, queens, lakewood,monsey and so on, you get along right away. You meet a “lubavitcher”, its right away my Rebbe is better than yours and tanya tanya tanya. You have no Torah I have Torah. “You are afraid by Rosh Hashana we arent we crown Hashem, you are scared if you sin we arent the only thing that matters to us is whether we hurt Hashem or not which is scarier to us than if we sinned.” And yes I heard this straight from the mouths of lubavitchers including “shluchim” in my conversations. Stop it already, you and then you ask why there is conflict between you and everyone else. Dont you realize? You are causing it!

@SH
My point in bringing Rav Vosner was to show that when people say “all the Gedolim” that is absolutely false.

This is a textbook case of a straw man argument. Who, in the context of our discussion said “all the Gedolim”?

Re: what you wrote:
You named several names. I demonstrated that one was mislead, and two we have proof to the contrary.

You demonstrated nothing of the sort. It is pure conjuncture on your part to say that HaRav Aaron Feldman was mislead. There is nothing in his letter indicating how many or how few elohistim there are in Chabbad. Also, as already mentioned, his name was not on my list as he did not come out against the Lubavitcher Rebbe in that letter. I have no Idea What his opinion is regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

Proof to the contrary? Hardly. At best you can call me out on that I did not bring evidence for their positions. In the case of the Satmar Rebbe his opinion is regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe is expressed in writing in Divrai Yoel on Parahas Tzav. If you want to disregard what I said regarding HaRav Hutners position because I did not bring written proof for his position that would is OK with me. But know this. It is not called proof:
1. When a Gadol can be shown to hold the Lubavitcher Rebbe in high regard at some early point in their life when there is evidence that they later changed their opinion.
2. To claim that if the Gadol did not hold of the Lubavitcher Rebbe we would know about it in Chabbad. This supposition is absurd. If a Rav makes his opinion know to his talmidim yet chooses not to publicize his views or launch an all out war against Chabbad it would not be known to Chabbad. This in no way impeaches the reliability of his students testimony regarding what they heard from their Rebbe.

Gaon,

I’m fine with the Ramban; the issue I raised is with Chat specifically saying that “Hashem took an oath that Moshiach can’t die”. Where in the world does he get that?

@Slominer
You haven’t addressed my question to you, above, regarding the Satmar Rebbe and Rav Hutner.

Please see my response to SH

““Hashem took an oath that Moshiach can’t die””

Another of his illusions – there is none.

And based on the above Ramban – all he says that it is “possible” NOT it is absolute or anything like it…

im not avoiding it, I tried to address it but since I put a link in my message it was deleted. Besides, as I’ve already said, dozens of people message me and I can’t respond to it all at once. Someone was kind enough to list a source from ramban.

The Rebbe said he was a navi, not me. For what reason is he a navi sheker? I think calling him a navi sheker stems from, all due respect, not knowing enough about the sources the Rebbe quotes. The Rebbe knew much more than u. Don’t pretend ur a fraction of what the Rebbe was or u will just be disappointed. He knew all of shaas like his own name. The Rebbe quoted the Rambam that it’s forbidden to overly question him because he’s BEEN established as a prophet. If u honestly think u can argue with the Rebbe I really don’t know what to say to u. Ur head is too big. If u knew who the Rebbe was then u would be a lot slower to call such a tzaddik and gaon a navi sheker.

CSת

“I take personal offense at the statement made by CS that the Vilna Gaon saw the Alter Rebbe of Lubavich through a key hole, realized that if he would meet him he would have become a chossid and ran away. But this is just a symptom of the above stated problem.”

I didn’t make it up or I would get your personal offense, this is a story I watched the descendent of the Vilna Gaon’s top talmid say is the tradition passed down through the family”

I already addressed this point – way back.

Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

Do you really believe everything someone says on a video – only because he claims to be a descendant?

I have read plenty of material on that issue, good and bad– sorry, but this is utterly nonsense. The Gra never bothered seeing the Alter Rebbe, nor did he have any issues with emotions. Meaning, if he felt there is real kedusha,he would have no issue facing it.
You are not speaking about some nowaday Rosh Yeshiva!

The Gra when he completed writing his pirush on Shir hashrim, he stated to his talmid: he has completed all torah, Niglah and Nistar to the level of keSinusei m’Sinai, he has only one question in nistar, which he would travel to the other end of the world to find an answer…

Do you really think he couldn’t face the truth?!

In any case, the Machlokes was not based how people portray it was…and is a discussion on its own.

Anyways, see the following link for the Rebbe The Tzemach Tzedek’s take on the very Machlokes. His opinion (as related to the Aruch Hasulchan) is that it actually benefited Chassidm:

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48315&pgnum=81

Read it carefully and you will see, that It’s really interesting how history repeats itself…how Chassidus did go overboard these days..

“If ur asking cause ur trying to test me then I wouldn’t answer u”

Chat,

Sorry. No need to test – you obviously have no inkling how Navuah or a Navi is defined…

If you really want, I can prove it. Just don’t fool yourself – be truthful. Navuah is a very complex topic that the Rambam himself says (Hakdomah To Zerayim) it deserves an entire sefer/chibur on its own.

It is just amazes me how a few “Mochin ketanim” decided what Navuah is and are basing their entire beliefs on their very Am Ha’aratzes!

I am sure you were already greatly versed on this topic prior to you deciding whatever…

Raboisa keep protecting hashems Torah from this….what rav belsky call it.A little bit of light could push away alot of darkness(No it’s not a Chabad concept).The Tanya is like other Seforim ,it may have his own chidushim ,it may have things that are agreed about it may have things that are argued about, who knows if the gra and other agrees all that is written in it.Remember the alter rebbe wanted to convince the gadol hador.There were things that made the gra sign charamim to ,yet the lubavitchers know exactly mammash what went on ,the problem is ,it’s all from their side of the story sorry Rav solovotchiks story isnt our mesorah like all you chabadskes dream it is.