Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

There’s an important post by CS a bit back that no one commented on, but I think is very important.
I’ll quote it to remind people:
“In a famous sicha 5751 the Rebbe got very emotional and poured out his heart, which was highly unusual.

He said that he had done everything to bring moshiach, and that klal yisroel as a whole, throughout the genesis,had accumulated enough zechusim to me r it moshiach so what more could Hashem be waiting for!?!

He continued that it must be that Hashem doesn’t want the Nossi hador to bring moshiach because he wants moshiach. Rather, it needs to matter to every man woman and child.

Ave then shockingly the Rebbe concluded that he’s giving it all over to us regular people-is up to us to bring moshiach.”

To me, this means that the Rebbe realized that the Massiach campaign went off track, people got carried away and started focusing too much on the Rebbe. So he backed off, had the stroke soon after, and eventually was niftar. It sounds like he abdicated being the “Nasi HaDor”. And he expected his Chassidim to back off too, but their actions indicated that they did not.

If they had listened to what the Rebbe actually wanted, and not what they wanted to hear, things would be very different today and Chabad would not be so different from everyone else.

Daasyochid asked if we noticed the לשון רבים in the quote from Tanya.

I noticed it too, but you beat me to it 🙂

It’s very important because it means that the Baal Hatanya did NOT write that there is a nossi hador and that it seems he believes that there isn’t one!

@RSo

Are you saying there is no rational basis for our knowing that the Torah is true?? That our Emuna requires a “leap of faith”?

Do you realize the implications of what you are saying?

@Rso

it certainly turned into CS and a few others trying to explain to non-lubavitchers why they should believe or at least accept the possibility that the lubavitcher rebbe is moshiach.

Where has CS done that? She said it was rational for her and other Lubavichers to accept the teaching of their Rebbe.

Based on one of her earlier posts I suspect she would agree with your understanding of Emuna though…

There are seven generations from the gra until moshiach the seventh generation comes out to be Rav shneur kotler even though he was niftar on gimmel tammuz my mashpia told me nothing changed lo haya histaklos.rabosai let us all do teshuva there are no misnagdim there are no chasidim only briskers moshe rabeinu will lead us once again

@Winnie

Ch’v Ch’v that the Rebbe ever backed off the moshiach campaign. He dedicated decades to it and it’s the Torah of the Rebbe. He did not “give up”. There are plenty of sources to the idea that “it’s all up to you”. Not trying to offend, but that’s just not how the Rebbes sichos work. They don’t work as “well I’ve done all I can do. Idk what to do next exactly. Might as well give it all up”. He has a whole other year of sichas after that which are even more moshiachdik than before. There is an interview in 1992 where he says “Moshiach is ready to come now and it is only on our part to add in the realm of goodness and kindness”. One person came crying to him after the sicha and he said the avodah depends on you. Him not being able to do more and the jews doing the rest has to do with his being a tzaddik, the spiritual avoda, and HaAlos M’an(isarusa delisata) of the yidden. It’s a lot more complicated and holy than a social psychology approach. Also the Rebbe says to live at every moment with the teachings of the nasi hador. We are if anything, failing to live up to them, not changing them. I found a source outside of chabad literature which says that moshiach will come and say it’s time for geulah but the geulah won’t come because some deeper things need to happen first. Just a thought.

CS, your last point I think everyone can agree with- and it’s true of all tzaddikim. Which is why when we learn, we say “Rashi says” and not “Rashi said”, not because we think he is still alive and talking, but because his influence and teachings live on beyond him. If this answer truly reflects Chabad Hashkafa today, then we can end the discussion here.
But even so, we still need live leaders and teachers to guide us, we can’t just live based on what was taught and written before us, trying to interpret these teachings and apply them to our times.

@BurntFace,
“Being formerly on the inside”
You sound like you’re reading one of those scripted “documentaries” of people who left Yiddishkait (lehavdil, I’m not comparing) with an axe to grind.
I’m actually quite curious to know who you are, because you seem to have a vile agenda to bashmutz Lubavitch here.
And also, because there are only a very small handful of Lubavitchers who left to other Chassidusen after the Rebbes histalkus. (The Liozna Rebbe, a certain Belzer Dayan, and that’s all I’ve heard of)
And I highly doubt that your are the Liozna Rebbe.

“You sound like you’re reading one of those scripted “documentaries” of people who left Yiddishkait (lehavdil, I’m not comparing) with an axe to grind”

just curious, was that an expression of support to an obviously pained, suffering soul who had a very traumatic experience, or somewhat an expression of frustration at the negativity he is expressing toward Chabad?
I think most readers are able to see the difference between posts that come from scholarship and those that come from pain and the main focus towards pained and suffering individuals should be mercy and tefillos only and always, regardless of how their words reflect personally.

@Slominer,
“How many Lubavitchers left Lubavitch after (because of) the Rebbe’s petira?”
I don’t know of exact numbers, but it was a handful, individuals. There was no mass exodus.

“Why did they leave? And where’d they leave to? You both say few of them left to other Chasiduses; so where did they go?”

Most of them left Yiddishkait entirely, perhaps because they never really believed too much to begin with, but the Rebbes presence and the environment that created left them within Lubavitch for the time being.

“And how did the Liozna Rebbe and that Belzer Dayan explain their leaving?”
I don’t know their explanations, you’d have to ask them. I can tell you that as early as 1987 this Liozna Rebbe was expressing his doubts in Lubavitch and the Rebbe. He only got up and left after the Rebbes histalkus.

of course he left. his perception is that he was being force-fed a whole dangerous system of lies, absurdities and foolishness. if he was, then he was honest and courageous to leave, and of course he has an axe to grind.

I cannot comment on whether Rabbi Berger is a Talmud Chocham or not. Never spoke to him, read his articles, or heard his lectures. I did read his book. In it he expressed:
1) His great admiration for the Lubavicher Rebbe
2) His concern for the direction certain elements within Chabbad where headed which he saw as deviations of the Lubavicher Rebbes teachings
4) His conviction that more needs to be done by the Agudah and RCA Rabbionim to
A. Publicly come out against those deviant elements
B. Strengthen the Rabbonim in Chabbad who where fighting these deviations.

@SH
“The premise that it is legitimate to hold such a belief undermines the very fabric of the Halachic process itself”
We’ve been through this so many times here…
As I asked earlier, which Halacha does this contradict?

You missed my point. Before discussing whether a specific practice or belief is or is not against Halacha there has to be a comittment to the Halachic process itself. Siting an Agadah to sanction an unprecedented theological shift among Klal Yisroel is unacceptable. It would be problematic even if it was done by a Gadol. As you yourself have pointed out repeatedly there has been no Gadol who took this position. I would be able to use such a meathod to uproot many established practices and beliefs (among other them Ikrai HaDaat.

Congratulations, ChabadShlucha, I believe this is officially the longest thread bearing a poster’s username in the title in the history of the CR. If this lasts a few more days, it could even become the longest thread in general.

@NonPolitical,
“Siting an Agadah to sanction an unprecedented theological shift among Klal Yisroel is unacceptable. ”
This Gemara is a very strong precedent. Agada only isn’t a proof if it contradicts Halacha, which as explained, it doesn’t. The Rambam does not say that Moshiach isn’t min hameisim, or from one who was zoche to Techiya before the process of Geula began, (and that is a legitimate possibility, צדיקים קמים מיד, and other sources,) and there was such a possibility accepted by no less than Amoraim. Was the Gemara not accepting your definition of “Halachic process”?

@NonPolitical,
“Siting an Agadah to sanction an unprecedented theological shift among Klal Yisroel is unacceptable. ”
You probably mean “Citing.”

Hey @phil

I made some replies, but it seems they weren’t put up, so I’ll say them again here.

The believe isn’t that the Rebbe wasn’t buried. He was. I believe nearly all of us, except for some very confused individuals, can agree to that. The Shtefaneshter Rebbe said about Yaakov Avinu, that since “Yaakov Avinu lo Mes” he is obligated in mitzvahs. The specific mitzvah pointed out was eating matzah on pesach. So he asks how Yaakov avinu can fulfill this mitzvah. He says there that since Hashem is כל יוכל so hashem is able to give him matzah to eat in pesach in the grave. Now, this isn’t what I think to be the case, but it’s still Torah and I respect the opinion. Rashi says it appeared that Yaakov had died in his commentary on Chumash, and tosefos quotes Gemara in Taanas when commenting on the “Yaakov avinu lo mes” Gemara which says Yaakov avinu laughed after he passed away. The Rebbe says these two take it literally. He also asks some questions which make it difficult to say otherwise. So the Rebbe says Yaakov is alive b’guf. He also says in another sicha that there are others who say Lo Mes Moshe means also bguf, but the Rebbe doesn’t hold by that vort. Nevertheless it is an opinion. The Rif on Ein Yaakov says that Yaakovs כח to move was nullified and they mistakenly buried him. The Rebbe has a letter going through different tzaddikim and sources which say they didn’t die and how there are different levels and opinions. If ur interested in that letter I’ll send the source. The bnei yissachar has an opinion that tzaddikim who never had nanah from this world, on the day of their passing, look like they died but live neshamah bguf. There are also many sources for a guf dak(ethereal second body) which is discussed about many different tzaddikim. Another thing, the Rebbe says the Baal Shem Tov could have lived forever but he chose to die and fulfill the Loshon of the phrase “from dust u shall return”. There is also a famous vort about how the Baal Shem tov and the Maggid of Mezrich visited the alter Rebbe in prison after their passing. One of the chabad rabbanim asked someone who visited the alter Rebbes cell if there was enough room for 3 people, clearly showing he though they appeared in some kind of actual body. When it comes to applying this to the Rebbe it comes from chassidic explanations that moshiach will live forever. These explanations were applied to the Rebbe in 1992 with the chezkas moshiach psak din and that the time for geulah had arrived based on the Rebbes nevuah. They therefore said the oath of hashem that moshiach will live forever applies to the Rebbe. So coming from that direction, we see how it would work. Personally, I went to the Rebbes kever, and put my hand on his gravesite. As soon as I did I felt some type of shock, l’maalah min hateva. My heart felt like it was bubbling and my head was buzzing and there was kinda like a current going through my arm. It was unlike anything I can put into words and lasted until I took my hand off the stone many seconds later. I’m personally telling u this to help bring out that tzaddikim are beyond us and that something is going on down in that kever. u don’t realize the depth of it until u experience the Rebbe, I guess. And no, aside from being sassy my mental health is normal. Altho I can understand wanting to paint me as a crazy anon so as not to have to believe this story. But I experienced it for myself, and I generally tend to keep it to myself but I felt it necessary to say this in context of this conversation.

@SH

Please see the Ramchal regarding interpetIons of Agadah. There are Agados that are not to be taken literally for example. It is not a free for all when anyone can interpret as they see fit as long as it doesn’t contradict a Halacha. And even if we somehow know to take it literally we still have various ways of interpreting it as you saw In the beginning of the thread. Would you accept an argument based on a different Chazal that would deny that Moshiach is coming altogether? What about proofs from Chazal that there is no problem playing an organ in Shul on Shabbos? What about women getting called up to the Toarah? All of these are deviations from normative Jewish beliefs and practice. Halachic process dictates that innovations to Jewish beliefs and practice are to be initiated or, in the event that they arise spontaneously, be sanctioned after the fact by the Gedolim of the generation. That has not happened in this case and therefore contradicts normative Halachic process. Whether a Tanna or Ammorah did or did not historically hold this position is not relevant.

In relation to my remarks about Professor Berger:
“In my mid-teens, I experienced periods of perplexity and inner struggle while reading works of biblical criticism. While I generally resisted arguments for the documentary hypothesis with a comfortable margin of safety, there were moments of deep turmoil. I have a vivid recollection of standing at an outdoor [sabbath service] in camp overwhelmed with doubts and hoping that God would give me the strength to remain an Orthodox Jew. What saved me was a combination of two factors: works that provided reasoned arguments in favor of traditional belief and the knowledge that to embrace the position that the Torah consists of discrete, often contradictory documents was to embrace not merely error but [heresy].”
-From his autobiography published in 1993.
I’ll let all of you decide for yourself if these comments disqualify him from opining on whether or not these beliefs are kfira, and “beyond the pale of orthodoxy”.
(As an aside, when a 50 year old writes an autobiography, it speaks volumes about his character, and specifically his ego.)

@NP,
“That has not happened in this case and therefore contradicts normative Halachic process. ”
I fail to see the logic in that.

“Would you accept an argument based on a different Chazal that would deny that Moshiach is coming altogether? ”
I wouldn’t, because Halacha as brought in Rambam clearly doesn’t hold like that Deah.

As for the organ playing in Shul etc, I think you should come up with more rational arguments.

All of your arguments are based on the myth that somewhere in Halacha it says that Moshiach cannot be min hameisim, or have an early Techiya. To answer that with “well the Gedolim didn’t say he could be” I’m not aware of which Godol spoke or wrote about these inyanim “Lepilpula b’alma” not in connection to Lubavitch or the Rebbe.

@NP,
“Now if we had direct or public testimony from The RAV that would be something. Do we have that??”
I believe he said this at a Yud Test Kislev gathering in Boston in the late 60’s. I gave the source for this earlier (before you joined the conversation).

Cont

So that sicha made it obvious to the chassidim that the Rebbe can’t be nistalek, as understood from the previous information mentioned in this thread.

Id really love to know if SH was taught this sicha,and if yes, how he reconciles it with having no problem saying ztzal etc

@NP,
http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/livingtorah/player_cdo/aid/575008/jewish/An-Encounter-with-the-Alter-Rebbe.htm
@mods, please allow, this isn’t copyright.

Cont’

But as you all know, gimmel tammuz came along. So according to what I learned in this class, I had no clue of any is this before, the chassidim were split in 3 camps.

1) we don’t know what happened here, but it’s apparent that the Rebbe was nistalek, so we’ll go with that reality, and admit we don’t understand the sicha

2) exactly the opposite. Moshe emess vsoraso emess, the world is Olam hasheker, so the Rebbe is still alive.

How exactly?

There are different ways that it can be, all based on torah of course. I’ll mention a few pointers and if you’re not familiar, or anther person can explain :

1. Like Rabbeinu Hakadosh who came after his padding, to his family, in his body, and made kiddush for them (they could not have been yotze if he didn’t come in his body)

2. Rabbeinu Bachya s concept of tzaddikim possessing a guf gas and guf dak. So the guf gas can be buried while the guf dak is active.

3. A sicha of the Rebbe, I think MC referred to it before, on Yaakov Lo mes. The tosfos says that Yakov was buried, but at the funeral he opened his eyes.

Ie for a tzadik there could be such a thing as the body being alive although there is no pulse, no eating etc to answer Phil

3. Mainstream position that the Rebbe’s body is alive as per the last point of 2, in the ohel. This makes it that he doesn’t disconnect from us and continues to guide us, unlike tzaddikim when they pass away they undergo nhar dinur I think it is, and forget all associations with this world.so we visit the ohel, acknowledge gimmel tammuz and continue being guide by the Rebbe,the Nossi hador, whose influence has only grown worldwide since gimmel tammuz

@SH
All of your arguments are based on the myth that somewhere in Halacha it says that Moshiach cannot be min hameisim, or have an early Techiya.

Nowhere in any of my posts have I stated that the Halacha says this. Nowhere in any of my posts have I used it as a premise for anything I did say. You are either misunderstanding or misconstruing what I did write.

Re: Rabbi Berger. Not sure why his openly discussing a struggle he had in his youth is relevant.

Rabbi Yaacov Emden wrote an autobiography. I don’t think it says anything negative about him. Do you?

Re: Poskim, Talmidai Chochamin and Tzadikim.
What criteria would you propose we use for

Re: Brisk Meaorah
You did not witness this personally. Did you see / hear a recording of this yourself? Did you at least hear first hand testimony from someone who did?