Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

Cont –

The ONLY Rambam that really describes the above situation is the following:

:ואלה הדברים שקדמה הבטחתם ע”י הנביאים שהודיעונו כמו שאמרתי לכם”
“שבקרוב לימות המשיח האמיתי ירבו הטוענים והחושבים שכל אחד מהם משיח, ולא תעמד טענתם ולא תתאמת, ויאבדו הם ויאבדו עמהם רבים <<

– אגרת תימן – Rambam

The Rambam needs no pirush other than Ruach haKodesh Hofia B’bet Midrusho
שבקרוב לימות המשיח האמיתי ירבו הטוענים והחושבים שכל אחד מהם משיח, ולא תעמד טענתם ולא תתאמת

“tzaddikim seem to be in short supply nowadays”

Chabadshlucha: There are definitely NOT a shortage of tzaddikim nowadays. You are looking in all the wrong places if you feel that way. You should definitely ask people outside your circles who the tzaddikim are.

There are many huge tzaddikim today.

I’ll ask this again:

Can anyone, anyone, please quote the exact words (and source) of the Lubavitcher Rebbe saying he himself is Moshiach?

I challenge you to prove based on a source that you can specify in Shulchan Aruch or Rambam why her beliefs are “Halachically problematic”.

You don’t think it’s halachically problematic to throw all known sources describing moshiach in the garbage based on a purely emotional need to believe your rebbe is moshiach?

.” In fact, for me, it is more surprising you don’t take Rebbeim and tzaddikim more seriously Maybe because as mentioned, tzaddikim seem to be in short supply nowadays, so you weren’t raised with this concept? ”
Your defense mechanisms are in full force, I see but your above statement regarding my personal levels of emunah is crossing a line. You want to comment on my impression or my beliefs go ahead, but that was a disgusting attempt to reclaim your post, and you will get no mechila. It brings to question whether or not you are actually someone on shlichus who would never dare to stoop so low to a fellow yid.

The Holy Admur of Lelov, Rabbi Moshe Mordechai Beiberman said of the Lubavitcher Rebbe to Reb Binyin Rabinovitz ” 1. With regard to Moshe Rabbeinu we are taught the Shechina spoke from his throat. From the Lubavitcher Rebbes throat one hears the shechina. 2. The Lubavitcher Rebbe is the only one who is fully carrying out the mission of the Baal Shem tov 3. The Rebbes powers completely transcend the natural order”

Sefer hazikaron relates that when the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe met with the Sfas emes, the Sfas emes took the previous Rebbes hand and said “Ah! A holy hand!”.

The hidden tzaddik Reb Slomke of Zvhill said “Its proclaimed in heaven “Rebbe Rayatz[Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe] Tzaddik HaDor!”

Another tzaddik since we’re in the topic of tzaddikim now…

The Shpoler Zeide would refer to himself with all sorts of derogatory names like beheima (animal). He was once in Liozna during the nesius of the Alter Rebbe and he stayed in the attic above the shul. The Alter Rebbe once went up to see him and while he was on the stairs, the Shpoler Zeide said the verse, “Who will go up on the mountain of Hashem etc.” When the Alter Rebbe got upstairs, the Shpoler Zeide said, “you are going to an old beheima,” and he began denigrating himself.

My father [the Rebbe Maharash] told me that since his neshama was from b’n, he referred to himself as a beheima. Generally, the souls of b’n need to nullify themselves.

(Toras Sholom)

SINCE THEN I’VE FELT WARM

The Shpoler Zeide was a man of intense fervor, far more than any of his colleagues – the Maggid’s other disciples.

When he visited the Alter Rebbe in Liadi in 5569 or 5570 (1809 or 1810) he related that when he was a child of three he saw the Baal Shem Tov. “He placed his holy hand on my heart and ever since I have felt warm.”

(HaYom Yom 14 Teves)

HIS REVELATION

Somewhere else it is told that when the Shpoler Zeide was about three or five, he went to see the Baal Shem Tov when he was in Shpole. The Baal Shem Tov blessed him and after blessing him, he placed his holy hand on the child’s head and heart. Ever since, said the Shpoler Zeide, I felt my mind open to Torah study and a yearning of the heart for serving the Creator and Ahavas Yisroel.

Source: Beis Moshiach

“Whoever hears about the Admur[Lubavitcher Rebbe] stands in awe at the greatness of his personality, knowledge, influence, and activities. Aside from the Aura of Awe and exaltedness that he radiates. We learn from him the meaning of greatness, the meaning of perfection, and the power of Torah. The human mind finds it hard to fathom: how can a human being whose abilities are limited, and whose time is limited, attain such a broad range of knowledge? How can one individual lead with grandeur such a large enterprise of activity? How can one man provide guidance, assistance and strength to millions of Jews as a whole, and to all of them as individuals? Even more difficult to comprehend is how all these people are integrated within and embodied by, one individual, renown as a tzaddik, chasid, and Anav in all his ways?”- Rabbi Bakshi-Doran, journal Hadar Hakarmel 5742

The gaon Rabbi Nachum Kornbisser, rosh yeshiva of the Chiddushei HaRim yeshiva related’ the following:

During the month of Shevat 5730 (January-February, 1970) when letters were being sold for the Torah scroll of Moshiach, I was staying with the Beis Yisroel at his home in Kfar Shmaryahu. Some Chabad shluchim came to visit the Admur in connection with the matter of the Torah scroll. The Admur later told me: ‘I inscribed a letter, and I also gave them money. I heard a rumor that there is someone who opposes the Rebbe’s declaration that this Torah scroll can bring the Redemption; I am completely incapable of fathoming this opposition.’

At that time, there was also a rumor that a certain individual described the matter of the Torah scroll as idolatry, G-d forbid. In reaction to this, the Beis Yisroel told me: “I find it very hard to believe that so-and-so said this; but if I were to find out that he did indeed say it, I would no longer wish to meet with him. I once had a visitor who called Breslov “idolatry”; after that, I was no longer prepared to meet with him. You should know that the Lubavitcher is an awesome person [a moradiker mentch], leader of Israel.’ I heard many times from the Admur’s holy mouth that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the greatest leader of our generation”

@MoshiachChat,
“Reb Yoel Kahn, much to Seichal Yashars dismay, is on video saying nothing happened gimmel tammuz. He is here just as before”

I can’t confirm that or deny as I haven’t seen this video. But I can tell you, as everyone in Lubavitch knows, that R Yoel definitely doesn’t believe that today. I doubt he ever did.

CS wrote: “I guess i see that even though the sources haven’t been addressed and the logic had not been accepted, it is too much for the litvishe world as a whole to take in one foot, which is why I decline to further discuss perhaps even more sensitive subjects.”

I am not, have never been, and (hopefully) neve will be part of the Litvishe world yet I still reject virtually everything you have written because the basis of everything you have written has been “inside Luvavitch” sources.

The lubavitcher rebbe invented the conept of dor shevii. He invented the idea that it starts with the first Lubavitcher rebbe. He (or perhaps his predessor, but I don’t think so) invented the idea of nossi hador. He invented the idea that the (imaginary) nossi hador is the moshiach of the dor. And the conclusion of all this is that he must be moshiach.

Yes, accepting any of the above logically as fact is way beyond my intellectually capabilities.

I have one request: if you can find anyone who does have the intellectual capabilities of accepting the logic of the above, please send them to me. I have a bridge in Brooklyn they may be interested in buying.

CS you wrote: “I have experienced the Rebbe’s greatness myself on many levels.”

I find this very significant.

If I recall correctly you worte that you were born a few months before the lubavitcher rebbe did/did-not (strike out whichever is inapplicable) pass away. So you clearly never saw him, spoke to him face to face etc..

How then can you say that you have experienced his “greatness myself on many levels”? Don’t you believe tht Hashem is running the world? Maybe, just maybe, it was Hashem you experienced and not the rebbe at all.

If c”v someone beseeched oisoi ho’ish to heal him, ahd the person was then healed, we would all laugh at the idea it was o-h who healed him and we would all agree that it was Hashem who did so.

So please tell us how you know it was the rebbe you experienced.

And NOW I KNOW why Moshe Rabbeinu had to be Mispalel to HaShem to show the Yidden that Aharon was Niftar. (רש”י ויראו כל העם כי גוע אהרן), and HaShem had to show Malachim carrying Aharon’s bier. This Rashi mamesh comes to life!!!!

Thank you, all you crazies, for explaining to me a piece of Torah!

Here is something else that has bothered me since I first heard it many years ago and it or its relative has been used often in this thread.

“The Gemora says that a dead person can be Moshiach. So what’s wrong with saying that the rebbe can be Moshiach?”

The Gemora does NOT say that a dead person can be Moshiach. The gemora (Sanhedrin 98b) says that “if he [Moshiach} is from the dead, it is Doniel”. Rashi gives two possible explanations:
1. If Moshiach was someone who has died, it was Doniel (note the past tense “was”).
2. if you want to find someone among those who have already died who Moshiach will resemble, it is Doniel, i.e. Moshiach is someone ALIVE who will be similar to the way Doniel was in his lifetime.

For anyone to say that that Gemoro allows us to say that ploni is Moshiach even though he died is the equivalent of saying tht the gemaro says there are 39 Ovos Melochos so I am justified in saying there are another few. If it was a dead person it was Doniel – not the Lubaitcher rebbe!

The relative to that statement is “the Gemoro says Yaacov Ovinu lo meis, so I can say the rebbe didn’t die either.”

Same objection as the first.

I hope all the close-minded Litvishe out thre can understand this difficult piece of logic 🙂

One down.
Who’s next?

Hmm?

“Can anyone, anyone, please quote the exact words (and source) of the Lubavitcher Rebbe saying he himself is Moshiach?”

Of course, he was smart enough not to say it explicitly. Yet, he managed to have (almost?) all of his chassidim convinced that he was, and perhaps made some disclaimers in private.

Haga atzm’cha; he knew they thought he’s moshiach (otherwise why the disclaimers) yet the same way we don’t find any explicit claims that he was moshiach (although Bosi L’gani is pretty close) we don’t either find any explicit public disclaimers.

Let’s go to the source of the issue/problem:

MC or ChabadShlucha,

You claim there was a “נבואה”..

How do you define a נביא?
How do you define נבואה?

And don’t tell me he predicted once something…or some other miracles. That is not what a Navi is all about.

I challenged anyone to prove that these beliefs are “Halachically problematic” by giving a specific source in Shulchan Aruch.

No, you said Shulchan Aruch or Rambam, and the Rambam has already been quoted several times here, if I’m not mistaken by you as well.

@Daas,
“Rambam has already been quoted several times here, if I’m not mistaken by you as well.”
Quoted to prove that her beliefs are Halachically problematic? I didn’t quote anything for that purpose. I said that according to the Rambam the Rebbe didn’t fulfill the criteria of Chezkas Moshiach. I never said that means it’s Halachically problematic to believe that he will rise from the meisim and become Moshiach. And I challenge you to prove that it is.

I never said that means it’s Halachically problematic to believe that he will rise from the meisim and become Moshiach.

I will rephrase what I wrote earlier – is it not halachically problematic to ignore/twist that Rambam?

I’ll note also that your response to me, insulting my parents, didn’t even make an attempt to dispute the very logical argument that the Rebbe caused his chassidim to believe that he was moshiach. I understand that you’re passionate, but you’re falling into the same trap as the meshichists allowing passion to overcome sensibility.

You should also note that I never challenged the Rebbe’s Torah knowledge, or accomplishments in spreading Yiddishkeit.

Some of my posts aren’t coming through. Is it to do with Hebrew?

@Daas,
You certainly seem to insinuate that chas vesholom the Rebbe was a devious, two faced, self aggrandizing person (It’s hard for me to even type those words) who privately mislead his Chassidim while attempting to maintain a good image for the public.

And that I find disgusting.

“Shame on the people who raised you to speak like that.”
“I’ll note also that your response to me, insulting my parents, ”

I don’t know your parents, and I never insinuated that they raised you to speak like that. I honestly have no idea where you picked up such ideas.

I’ve said it before but I still can’t get over the line that “the rebbe loved every Jew” and that it is self-evident.

How do we know he loved every Jew? Because he initiated all those mitzvah campaings and he had mitzvah tanks etc?

I’m not saying he didn’t love every Jew, but I fail to see how someone having his followers promoting his movement is a sign of love or even of concern for others.

Now before you jump all over me and call me all the standard names like Misnaged and Sonei Lubavitch, I am not attacking Lubavitch or their rebbe here. I am merely pointing out that having CHABAD (uppercase because it is a brand name) houses advertising the greatness of their movement all over the world, and having mitzvah tanks with pictures of the rebbe on them, could also be taken as self-promotion.

Yes, yes. I know that they do great things in their Chabad houses, and I’ve already written that I visit them and use them, but I still want to know how you can be SURE that he loved EVERY Jew.

Remember: reply logically, don’t attack.

I don’t know your parents, and I never insinuated that they raised you to speak like that.

What, you think I was adopted?