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“Wrong. Anyone who goes off the derech is at least a little bit crazy. Ain adam chotei ele im kain nichnas bo ruach shtus.”
I absolutely cannot believe you would say something so awful. I truly hope no one who is struggling with Yiddishkeit is reading this thread, but if you are, I hope you know that there are many more people out there that want to help you, that know you are NOT crazy, but struggling for whatever reason.
Clearheaded -Saying that a person cannot go OTD for “mental reasons” is clearly K’neged Halacha. If you defined different levels of “mental reasons” it could be that it wouldn’t be k’neged. But to generally say all “Mental reasons” is. Didn’t you learn a Shoitah is Putter in mitzvos? Even a Cheresh is Putter. You seem to misinterpret Dan l’caf zecus. We were judging them up at the time they went off and at that time they were keeping mitzvos. You have no reason not to give these kids the benefit of doubt.
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Health, answer me clearly
1. Aren’t there or are there people with borderline personality disorder, bipolar, and clinical depression and other mental diseases and they are frum?
2. Do you think that those who are diagnosed with mental diseases would agree to be called shoitim?
“We were judging them up at the time they went off and at that time they were keeping mitzvos.”
I thought you’re not judging them? Anyway that’s you’re interpretation of the application of halacha.
“It seems you need to look down on all not-frum Jews, esp. the teenagers”
I don’t look down on non-frum Jews in general and never indicated as such. I do look down on those that could so carelessly and callously shed all vestiges of our holy religion under the guise of “mental illness caused them to”.
“Do you need to feel superior than them for your ego?”
This is not the first time you attacked me regarding my opinion where I don’t agree with you. I think you need to work on your ego first and maybe your urge to attack others who have a different opinion than yours will recede.
“No one is condoning their behavior, but they have to realize whatever the reason -the benefit of being Frum outweighs that reason! “
And therefore I need to agree that there OTD behavior stems from mental health? What’s the connection?
1. Even if so, it doesn’t mean others may not fall into the halachic category of shoitim.
2. There opinion if they are in that category, is irrelevant whether they are or not.
That being said, I agree with you that often excusing OTD behavior on mental illness is just an excuse for a Baalei Aveira.
I didn’t say that all OTD comes from mental problems. For #1 & 2- I didn’t define which mental ilness has a Din Shoitah -you did that by saying no mental disease is an excuse for OTD. I don’t know if people with mental disease would like to be called shoitim, but I was discussing if they fall into that catergory for Halacha purposes. You seem to think you are a poisek by saying no mental disease is an excuse -you’re not!
“I thought you’re not judging them? Anyway that’s you’re interpretation of the application of halacha.”
Of course I’m judging them -L’caf Zecus! You are correct, it’s my interpretation based on many years of learning. How many years did you learn in Yeshiva?
“I don’t look down on non-frum Jews in general and never indicated as such. I do look down on those that could so carelessly and callously shed all vestiges of our holy religion under the guise of “mental illness caused them to”.”
This is an Oxymoron. You equate people with mental illness with Mummer L’hachas. By saying “guise”- I guess in your mind there is no such thing as mental illness -something that was just made up by a bunch of shrinks!
To Health, I know what OCD is.
I’m saying this. The Mental Ills are not functioning! If they want to cry out, their cry is not- A cry out (its A cry in), Their help is not- A healing. It’s like A Non functioning car which keeps moving by people pushing it.
No wonder that Revolution doctors are saying what I previously mentioned that “WE ARE IN A FAST” from birth.
1. Even if so, it doesn’t mean others may not fall into the halachic category of shoitim.
2. There opinion if they are in that category, is irrelevant whether they are or not.
What exactly is the definition of a shoiteh?
The parent that abused me when I was growing up also is mentally diseased (probably boderline personality disorder – they never thought they have a problem and needed to get diagnosed, but I’ve read about the symptoms of BPD and my parent sounds exactly like they have this disease). Anyway, they are definitely mentally ill.
Now can one say, for all the pain and hurt this parent has done to other people they will not have to give din v’cheshbon because they were sick? (I’m working on forgiving this parent-I don’t want to give out whether it was my father or mother as I want to stay as anonymous as possible and I feel that would be a point to identify me). Interesting how when it came to their stuff they knew exactly what they were doing.
Now lahvdil a murderer (I’m not comparing-I just want to illustrate a point)that took the life of another person, do you think he’s normal? Obviously not. Nobody normal takes the life of another person. I’m not going to go into ruach shtuss or not. The point is that sinning is sinning. Hurting others, trampling on the laws of the Torah, whatever it is, there is a din and a Dayan.
I didn’t say that all OTD comes from mental problems.
And I didn’t say that you said that.
You seem to think you are a poisek by saying no mental disease is an excuse -you’re not!.
What gives you the right to extrapolate and say that I think that I’m a posek? As far as I know poskim don’t sit in the coffee room (especially as much as I do).
You are correct, it’s my interpretation based on many years of learning.
Interesting how you feel you have the right to interpretate halacha and when I do it you say that I seem to think I’m a posek. Talk about double standards.
This is an Oxymoron. You equate people with mental illness with Mummer L’hachas. By saying “guise”- I guess in your mind there is no such thing as mental illness -something that was just made up by a bunch of shrinks!
Please try to comprehend better what I (and maybe other people as well) am saying.
I didn’t equate people with mental illness with mumar lhachas. That’s false. I have said that mental illness is not an excuse for dropping Yiddishkeit.
When I say that they dropped their Yiddishkeit under the guise that “mental disease caused them to” that’s exactly what I mean – that they used their mental illness as a guise for dropping Yiddishkeit. You twist my words out of context.
Sam -A lot of mentally ill function just fine. Plenty of people with OCD have become normal due to professional mental help.
Not eating tons of Fat- doesn’t mean we are fasting!
Clearheaded -Not everybody who is mentally ill can’t control themselves and are Putter. Some can and some can’t. Stop trying to paint every mental patient the same.
“Interesting how you feel you have the right to interpretate halacha and when I do it you say that I seem to think I’m a posek. Talk about double standards.”
How can you call this a double standard? Even if you went to Rabbi Weiss’s school and you are a Rabbah, you can’t pasken.
“What gives you the right to extrapolate and say that I think that I’m a posek?”
I didn’t extrapolate anything- you said -“mental disease is not an excuse for going OTD”. This is a P’sak Halacha.
“I have said that mental illness is not an excuse for dropping Yiddishkeit. When I say that they dropped their Yiddishkeit under the guise that “mental disease caused them to” that’s exactly what I mean – that they used their mental illness as a guise for dropping Yiddishkeit. You twist my words out of context.”
What your saying is -mentally people are so twisted, that they know they are mentally ill and that they know they really can control themselves, but they want people to think that they went off because of their mental illness (which isn’t the case acc. to you) in order to fool everyone why they went off. Or are you saying people like pretending they are mentally ill, when they are not. You actually need a mental health professional to diagnose mental illness. People or even YOU saying that guy’s crazy doesn’t mean anything. I never heard a person who was OTD say -“I’m OTD because I’m mentally ill”. People only admit to mental illness when they have a real diagnosis.
This sounds twisted to me and you call yourself “Clearheaded”!
Clearheaded -Not everybody who is mentally ill can’t control themselves and are Putter. Some can and some can’t. Stop trying to paint every mental patient the same
This is my opinion – if you don’t like it lump it – that mental illness is not an excuse unless someone can be called totally meshuga (don’t know a nicer way to put it)as to not know how to take care of themselves. When they don’t know right from left then they don’t know right from wrong either. Otherwise my personal opinion is that no one has the right to do aveiros under the guise of mental disease or other excuses. Take it or leave it.
How can you call this a double standard? Even if you went to Rabbi Weiss’s school and you are a Rabbah, you can’t pasken.
I didn’t extrapolate anything- you said -“mental disease is not an excuse for going OTD”. This is a P’sak Halacha
Maybe in your book this is psak halacha. In mine, if someone states an opinion I can agree with it or not, but I certainly don’t look at it as someone’s halachic psak.
What your saying is -mentally people are so twisted, that they know they are mentally ill and that they know they really can control themselves, but they want people to think that they went off because of their mental illness (which isn’t the case acc. to you) in order to fool everyone why they went off.
I don’t think they want to fool anybody. Some people use their mental illness as an excuse for going OTD.
Or are you saying people like pretending they are mentally ill, when they are not.
I never said that. I only said in previous posts that sometimes the underlying roots of the mental illnesses are not addressed.
People or even YOU saying that guy’s crazy doesn’t mean anything.
Whatever that means.
I never heard a person who was OTD say -“I’m OTD because I’m mentally ill.
Because you didn’t hear any body say that, does that mean that they could use mental illness as an excuse for going OTD? What’s your point?
People only admit to mental illness when they have a real diagnosis.
Obviously. Who said otherwise?
This sounds twisted to me and you call yourself “Clearheaded”!
This is the second time you are commenting on my posting name. I see it bothers you. Truthfully, I don’t like this posting name myself. I registered under that name once when I wanted to comment on a news post and was too lazy to try to change it untill the name really got on my nerves and I tried again yesterday, but it didn’t work.
But when I saw your post today I got second thoughts of changing the posting name and thought of davka leaving it like that.
But it would be immature on my part to not try to change a posting name that annoys me just because an anonymous poster has a bone of contention to pick.
clearheaded here. Oh boy, my new nickname worked before I wanted it to.
Thanks moderator for removing the bold in the text.
sometimes the personalities of a parent and their child clash, and leaves the blame out of the equation entirely.
Nunu.
I have researched a phenomena called “poorness of fit”. In short, it explais how sometimes the personalities of a parent and their child clash, and leaves the blame out of the equation entirely.
Hashem is the one that gave the children to their parents created their personalities as well, and I certainly think He designed the perfect fit.
philosopher/clearheaded:
To say that in order to be Putter from mitzvos you have to be so severely impaired that they don’t know how to take of themselves is clearly against Chazal that says a Cheresh is Putter. What deaf person can’t learn basic life skills? What they can’t learn is mitzvos due to lack of communication. A person who can’t control themselves due to mental illness would be Putter in mitzvos. (Included in the din Shoitah.).She also puts in bold -“Otherwise my personal opinion is that no one has the right to do aveiros under the guise of mental disease or other excuses.”
Like this is some sort of Chidush. Either you fall into the catergory of Shoitah or not. People who go OTD don’t need excuses -they don’t care. People who claim to be frum -they need excuses. I can do whatever I want -it’s not my fault because of mental illness or whatever.
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“Perfect is relative.”
LOL, not MY relatives!
Health- Didn’t you learn a Shoitah is Putter in mitzvos?
That what you’re holding so, fits only if you say That Mentally Ills are Not functioning. for D’on L’caf Z’chu’s for itself doesn’t mean that you are puttering him.
What deaf person can’t learn basic life skills? What they can’t learn is mitzvos due to lack of communication.
Health, so if a deaf person will ask a Rov a shailoh if he’s puttor from living a frum life because he c”v wants to give it all up, do you really think a Rov will say they may do that? Quoting a Chazal to prove how a halacha is applied in all relevent situations is not the correct way to come to a conclusion of what the actual halacha is.
Maybe a parent was given a child whos personality irittated them, in order for them to learn to grow.
movingmountains, That’s why IT IS a perfect fit!
We are in this world to grow and to become better people by doing the mitzvos. That’s the only reason we are in this world. That’s not to say we can’t enjoy the pleasures of this world in the right context, but we are primarily here to grow spiritualy, by overcoming challenges. Life for a lot of us (and maybe all of us-although some do seem to have an easier life than others) can be VERY challenging, with parents, children or spouses. They are all the perfect fit our spiritual growth.
That what you’re holding so, fits only if you say That Mentally Ills are Not functioning
sam responsible, thanks, that’s exactly what I meant to imply. If one feels that mentally ill people are NOT functioning and fall in the category of shoitah then that’s their opinion.
My opinion is that while there are non-functioning humans that cannot take care of their basic needs, those who fall into the category of mentally ill people are oftentimes very high functioning indeed. Some of them (of course we’ll blame this on their disease) can be so cruel to others and terribly selfish and yet are very smart when it comes to themselves. Other people who were diagnosed with mental illness can be exceptional, accomplished human beings whom others would be shocked to realize that they are mentally diseased.
So here’s my opinion. Down syndrome and the like probably fall in the shoiteh category. But those who were diagnosed with mental disease, generally, cannot use that as an excuse for going OTD.
Lets just say that when a child, nebech, is shoved off the derech they go down a very dark journey and go through many different nisyonos. They carry a lot of pain and a lot of baggage with them. Some from the difficulties that sent them on this path and much from the journey itself. Is it any wonder that a child would need some form of therapy to help them on their journey back? Do you think that they just leave their baggage at their last stop and just rise above it?
There is a lot of healing that has to be done when a child returns and realizing that Hashem is on their side is just the beginning. You don’t just dunk in a mikveh and come out purified mind, body and soul.
Sam- I never understand what you are saying. A shoitah doesn’t have to be non-functioning to be in this catergory. Other less levels are also included. Also, with the methology of teaching hearing-impaired nowadays, some poskin hold that deaf people can keep the mitzvos.
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