Menahel's Decision To Expel A ?Good? Boy

I understand that point, but our actions often have repercussions beyond our intentions.

A harsh punishment such such as arbitrarily expelling one of their friends may very well unite the other students in focusing anger at authorities in the yeshiva.

SJSinNYC, seriously? Do you really think it is just so easy to just take the GED? Could you just sit down today and take it? And how would you feel if you deserved a regular diploma or a regents diploma and you had to go get a GED and not get into the college of your choice if that’s what you choose to do?

agittayid

i can testify tht never ends well

StuffedCabbage, I don’t believe that ALL children automatically side with their friends. If there are reasonable consequences then children can and do accept consequences that fit the crime especially when they have been warned or if the consequences or certain actions have been discussed previously. The entire scenario is so unreasonable and unwarranted and is ONLY applied to the kids that is why the kids don’t accept it.

If the hanhala or mechanchim made an error in judgment or worse, everyone would ban together to “cover it up” and no consequences at all would be dealt. Adaraba, it would be and has been swept under the rug for worse offenses than what these kids have done, and with much worse consequences for the innocent “others” involved. There is a huge double standard. Kids SEE IT, Kids know it KIDS HATE the HYPOCRISY. That is one of the major reasons that these type of situations end in OTD; because when all is said and done it all boils down to hypocrisy.

Here’s a different approach.

Fine, the boy broke a school rule– he spoke to a girl (gasp- who really cares what they spoke about??)

Let’s assume he had prior warnings and was caught again committing the same inexcusable crime, is that REALLY a reason to expell him 3 weeks before he’s due to graduate?

Now, being that many of us have B”H been blessed with children, let’s try to put ourselves in this boy’s parents situation. It’s 12 years later, it’s been a bumpy ride all along, there is no happy medium yeshiva waiting with open arms to accept our pathetic excuses for talmidim cuz they speak to girls. So, as good parents do, we pay our tuition cuz we have to, we send our kids to yeshiva cuz we have to, and we follow all the rules of society cuz we have to. Or else. So, with 3 weeks left before this kid is set to graduate, and the menahel has pocketed thousands of dollars in tuition over the years, and with nothing left to lose, he gives this rotten apple the boot. Let’s hear it for the menahel who has saved so many yiddishe neshomos from the shmutz this boy is infiltrating into the choshuva doors of the beis medrish. Bravo, Rebbe.

Fast forward 15 years. The OP said this boy earns straight A’s. So, he gets a GED, goes to college, eventually graduates from Harvard Law, and is now partner in a top law firm on Park Ave making a 7 figure salary (while attending daf yomi and giving bar mitzva lessons to special needs yingelech).But, guess who is asked to get honored at the Alumni Dinner?? Yep, it’s the bum that wasnt good enough for your yeshiva 15 years ago.

Or the opposite happens and he’s sitting for 40 years for various crimes he committed cuz he was a failure anyway. Well, duhh!!

PEOPLE!!!! WAKE UPPP!!!!!! The responses on this thread are earth shattering!! How dare a rosh yeshiva do that to a kid. Doesnt he see that this boy has some underlying issues? Whats the purpose of him using this boy as an example? You think other boys arent talking to girls? There are plenty, they just hid it better. But why 3 weeks before he’s set to graduate? Dont ruin his life because you are seeking revenge for your own failings as a mechanech.

And for the lay people out there: I’ll bet that if I gathered 100 OTD kids, boys and girls alike, and asked them what turned them away, 95 of them will say it was something to do with a teacher, a rebbe, a rosh yeshiva or a principal. The other 5 have various other issues (not for this thread).

The bottom line is that we must take responsibility for our actions or in this case inactions. This post might have started from a teeny little nothing or it can be a father struggling with a son who has no place to turn now. But, if we keep our mouths shut, and dont protest to the hypocricy of the yeshiva system today, then tomorrow it might be your son, daughter or even grandchild that will lose out. Because even good apples go bad eventually.

Take care of your kids. They are the future of Klal Yisrael.

(p.s. In no way am I saying that ALL yeshivas are guilty of this shamefulness; there are those special ones that do ”get it”. They know who they are and kol hakavod to them for embracing our children for who THEY are.)

Health:

Im was responding to the OP’s post in that particular situation. No, I don’t know the yeshivas POV and it’s irrelevant because they arent gunna tell us. Like i said, i’m responding to the OP. And yes, I am outraged by the wool thats been pulled over some of the responding posters eyes. Where is a happy medium? If one isnt Yeshivish or chassidish then they automatically fall into MO?

I’m taking a risk by saying this, but everybody breaks rules. Not that it makes it right, but it’s common practice among people. He didnt cheat on a test. He spoke to a girl, he broke the rules, he got kicked out. The OP clearly states that the boys who supported him wouldnt be allowed to graduate if they didnt back down. That is chinuch? Now, if the yeshivas are going to nitpick over every talmid that breaks a rule, then maybe i wont have to open my own MO yeshiva. I’ll have plenty of rejects to fund my school cuz of your warped way of thinking.

Aries,

I would rather get my GED than be blackmailed by my high school.

I think schools nowadays are trying to totally overreach their bounds. They have gone crazy. I wouldn’t succumb to blackmail (which is what this kind of behavior is IMO).

Sure, a high school diploma is better, but not always necessary.

I don’t say this lightly. Don’t misunderstand me. But I do think it takes some brave kids to stand up to schools and say “Do what you want, but you can’t take me.”

Parents are much more likely to have nachas from their children if they pay tuition and send their kids to yeshiva because they understand the the importance of a proper Torah chinuch. They are less likely to find their kids breaking the Torah’s rules if they keep those rules themselves, not because we have to follow society’s rules, but because they are the Ribono Shel Olam’s rules (given to us for our benefit), and out sense of gratitude to Him for all He does for us, we wish to and must.

Just to nitpick (and clarify), I can’t imagine you think that not paying tuition is going against the “Ribono Shel Olam’s rules”. Sometimes, it does happen, that a child’s parents can’t pay in full, and the school gives what they call a “needs based scholarship”. This may even be for the full amont of the tuition, and assuming the family is actually needy, they should take the tzedaka so that their child can attend Yeshiva. Please don’t insinuate that taking a scholarship is Assur (Even though I’m sure that’s not what you meant, it could be read like that).

DY has a very good point. IIRC, Rav Moshe said the reason why the generation of the 30’s went off was because the parents came home after being fired for not working on Shabbos and said “Tzu Shver Tzu Zain a Yid”, or “it is hard to be a Jew. The children internalized that being a Jew is difficult and therefore not worthwhile.

The new “Tzu Shver Tzu Zain a Yid” is tuition. And those who pay in full and those who are on scholarships both can have the attitude that “it is too much” (because it is too much, for almost everyone).

Also, paying tuition does not mean the child will graduate. Let’s say he simply failed out. Or easier, (CV) brought in a cross and tried to missionize?. He certainly should be thrown out, tuition payments notwithstanding.

The punishment should fit the crime. Assumimg the Kid DID talk to a girl and even went out on a date and was WARNED about doing it.

The menhahel was still wrong. Teenagers do make mistakes and they should be punsihed for them. but to kick him out is a little extreme.

to compare going on a date to bringing in a cross is not even close.

Mamala, kudos for standing up. Obviously I agree with you, but lets be real, NO ONE is getting into Harvard with a GED, so SJS I hope you understand that, and if you took a GED you probably wouldn’t have the job you do today either. I am not saying that you wouldn’t necessarily be an accountant, but you wouldn’t have YOUR choice of colleges, and that in itself would lead to different job opportunities. So again I am asking that you don’t take this so lightly. It is easy to “say” I would do this rather than that, but you are really not thinking about the dynamic change in the path that follows.

One thing I think a menahel and Rosh “could” do in such a situation (since some said there was no choice because he would influence others negatively) is to call a parents meeting of that grade. Both the Rosh and the student should present their case and the boy should then leave. The Rosh should put the achrius on the other parents. He should leave the room and tell them if they have halachic sheilos they should come find him in his office.

I am sure if the whole parent body of the graduating class heard the situation they would come up with a solution that would NOT destroy the boy’s life. Firstly, many of them probably know the boy well, much better than the “moser” involved. Secondly, the boys are already heading out the door and off to E”Y, in most cases. They are going to have to learn to trust their own boys in various situations and know that if they have an ehrlich serious son that is who he will remain. They will also realize that they don’t have a clue who their boys will meet in E”Y, and what they will do. So if they judge this boy so harshly and kick him out, is this the verdict and consequence that they are hanging on their own son’s necks if they slip up even a little on their own?

Also note that if this “moser” called the boy’s yeshiva she probably also called the girl’s school. That means that she ruined two kid’s lives over something that was firstly none of her business and secondly probably no big deal. It would be a totally different ball game, if out of concern she spoke to his and to her parents and mentioned that “it might not be appropriate” and they might want to be aware. So yes she is a “moser” of the worst kind.

Getting back to the parents, if someone wanted to check out the truth of the situation, one of the mothers could have quietly and gently met with the girl and heard her version as well. And out of concern for her also explain how such an seemingly innocent act can snowball into ruining two lives. So I suggest that such a decision should have been made by the parent body of the graduating class and the Rosh should abide by that decision.

In addition, if any child in any school knew that if they broke such a rule that the community thought was so horrific and they would have to go in front of the entire grade’s parents to explain themselves in order for a decision to be made whether or not they can remain in school, that in itself would be a more effective means of consequence. No frum child understands how another child can just go OTD. No frum child understands how one can just lose their bitachon and emunah like the drop of a hat. No one believes it will happen to them. So they may or may not take getting kicked out of school as a joke or a serious consequence because after all they can always fall back on the GED. But no child would want to have to go in front of their own parents and their friends’ parents explaining their mistake and beg for another chance. That is scary.

Just to nitpick (and clarify), I can’t imagine you think that not paying tuition is going against the “Ribono Shel Olam’s rules”.

My post was unclear. I didn’t mean parents who break the rules of paying tuition; I didn’t even mean breaking any rules. I meant to refer to the parents’ motivation for paying tuition, sending to yeshiva, and following the Torah in general.

My post was unclear. I didn’t mean parents who break the rules of paying tuition; I didn’t even mean breaking any rules. I meant to refer to the parents’ motivation for paying tuition, sending to yeshiva, and following the Torah in general.

That’s what I thought you meant as well. Once again, you have a good point.

Both the Rosh and the student should present their case and the boy should then leave.

Completely unrealistic. No menahel would or should be involved in a public debate with a student.

What you are suggesting would also be terribly humiliating for the student, as you point out later in your post, so you haven’t helped matters, you’ve just replaced one humiliation with another.

Your entire opinion is predicated on your considering what this (fictitious, IMO) student did as “no big deal”. Most yeshivas do consider such socializing to be a big deal, and the students know it (which is why just explaining to him what’s wrong is not sufficient).

I’m not suggesting that a boy be thrown out for this; it’s much more complicated than that, and yes, it’s devastating for him., but a fair discussion has to consider the seriousness of the issue. The fact that the socializing took place in plain sight also indicates that the boy is not even embarrassed, which takes things to a different level.

I’m not sure why, Aries, you are fixated om the “moser”. If the menahel confirmed things independently, he must deal with the issue even if he became aware of it through an individual who may have had the wrong motivation.

A rebbe came to town and spent a long time with a certain individual who was known to be a sinner in a loving manner. a man came over and asked i dont understand how you can even talk to him and not even rebuke him after he does such aveiros?

The rebbe explained – do you think the man doesnt know what hes doing is wrong?, of course he does. By yelling at him you will just make him feel even lower, what he needs is love.

I think that eaither-A)that is the situation with this boy (and in this case there was only one person being nice to him so he took that route) and throwing him out of yeshiva can not be more wrong…

Or-B)To be dan lcaf zchus- most boy yeshivos just brush off this issue and he was not taught as much as he needs to know about it.

Unfortunately i think its the latter and like most “yeshivish” yeshivos the boys arent taught about it because either it looks bad for the yeshiva…or the mechanchim are not with the times anymore about whats going on in the world…

perhaps will continue…

OK, let’s play a little. What “severe negative influence” is there to the rest of the class for three weeks, for talking to a neighbor outside school?

I don’t agree with J/P.M. That there’s a direct negative influence, unless the boy talks to his classmates about it (which is possible, since he was in a public place and had no “busha”).

However, if such a public violation of a yeshiva’s standards is allowed to go unpunished, the standard becomes unenforceable.

And, let’s face it, it’s a black eye for the yeshiva (which is why the menahel should not make such a decision unilaterally, since he has “negiyus”).

Pac-Man, again I disagree with you and posting it over and over doesn’t make it any different. You are only fooling your self and feeding foolish attitudes to believe that this little encounter will have any effect on the last three weeks of a boy’s high school days. Do you actually believe that he and his friends will NOT get together after school??? Even more so because he got kicked out. Don’t you realize that they are NOT babies and if he can influence them in school how much more so will they surround him and support him after school under these circumstances so that he can influence them? How much more will they be talking about this incident and deciphering it, what he should have said to the girl, what he should say to the moser, what he should say to the Rosh and so on and so forth. They will probably encourage him to go back to the girl’s home and go with the girl to stand in front of the yenta’s house for an hour so she can see that they both know it was her.

Do you honestly believe that because he was wiped off the school roster he is wiped off the hearts and minds of his classmates? Sorry Pac-man but just like your screen name you are living in the past with outdated ideas and concepts. Please join us in the real world where we can work together towards real solutions.

And he may influence others that shmoozing with a girl is okay.

So after he is punished, the Rosh Yeshiva gives a Shmooze on it, and for the past six years they have been told girls are the devil sheself, you are still worried about influence?

You must feel very poorly regarding their yeshiva (which explains your position, it must be an OTD yeshiva) and the bochrim there.

I agree fully with DY.

Once thing that I think we’re all dancing around is the unexplored middle.

If, indeed, the kid willingly and knowingly broke a school rule as important as this, I think we can agree that some punishment is in order. Was there no punishment between “nothing” and “explusion” that could have been applied?

The Wolf

I think it is the Mesilas Yeshorim that says that a slight bit of letzanus can contradict one hundred proofs.

Yes, Wolf and gavra, three weeks can undo 12 years.

I think it is the Mesilas Yeshorim that says that a slight bit of letzanus can contradict one hundred proofs.

If talking to the girl was only Letzanus, then the school has nothing to worry about.

Letzanus means (in english) Mockery. The boy was not mocking the torah, girls, etc.

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