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Aries’ description is correct, and that’s exactly the conversation a Yeshiva Bochur would/should not be having.
Halevi, in your opinion. That is a mentchlich conversation and there is nothing untoward about it. There is nothing too personal or inappropriate about it. It is not someone who he stopped in the street, it is a neighbor who’s mother, father, sister or brother could have been in the window or on the porch. It was in front of her and basically his own home, where his parents could have seen as well. No big deal. Again, menchlich and nothing to be hidden or to be ashamed of.
Maybe if more people would pull their heads out of the sand and out of the shmutz, kids would have more healthy lives and there would be a lot less OTD kids we have to deal with. There is nothing wrong with mentchlichkeit, something the Yenta lacks.
SJS, of course he needs his diploma!!!! Try to get a decent job without it. Try to go to college without it, or into any training program without it. Don’t be foolish, and please don’t say if he is learning he won’t need it. YOU can’t say what he will want to do in the future, or what he will HAVE to do in the future.
BaalSechel, sorry to tell you and others, this same story takes place too many times to count.
Wow, aries. It’s amazing how you base your opinion on a conversation you assumed took place. How do you know the nitty gritty of this story? How do you know for certain he’s a “good boy” (no, I DON’T mean his scholastic achievements)?
The Yeshiva needs to save the rest of the class from being severely negatively influenced by a pupil engaged in serious wrongdoing. I think this surely qualifies as such. It teaches action results in consequence; that engaging in something harmful to ones neshama cannot be acceptable.
how does daboss know of this story
MindOverChatter, I base my opinion on many instances that I know of that are similar to these. I don’t need the nitty gritty of this particular story. It is one of a thousand similar situations. Change the kid, change the locality, and change the time of year, but the outcome is the same. And for heaven’s sakes stop demeaning the kids. Kids make mistakes they are supposed to, they are kids. And “NO” their lives are NOT supposed to come to and end because of a mistake. Whether I believe or you believe that speaking to the other gender is right or wrong, lets consider it a mistake. Mistakes can be corrected and can be forgiven. No one suffered, no one lost life or limb over it. I prefer the three strike method. The child needed a warning and maybe a consequence but not one that would ruin his life forever. Again, the punishment does NOT fit the crime and it is high time that Yeshivas found a consequence that does. After all the child is only human. Can you or anyone say that even the Rosh Yeshiva has never made a mistake? Should a Rosh Yeshiva suffer such a sever consequence equal to ruining his life over a mistake he made?
Pac-Man, The Yeshiva doe NOT need to save the rest of the class from being severely negatively influenced by a a pupil who spoke to the other gender. I doubt if the boy was walking around telling everybody that he just had the most amazing conversation with his neighbor in broad daylight while all the neighbors could watch or listen. It absolutely does not teach action results in consequences. It teaches that Yeshivas are unreasonable and are willing to ruin your life over nothing at all, for no reasonable reason at all, no matter how good a person you are.
The school year is nearly over, there are only a few weeks left so there is not much time to influence anyone. And in this case, of a good bochur, the yeshiva should have given him credit for influencing the other boys for the good for so many years. This only teaches that you might as well give up and die if you make a mistake because your life is over. This is NOT what the Torah teaches us!
For all of you who are taking this so lightly, if it were your son this happened to, would you say that this teaches him that there are consequences for his actions and thats that? I highly doubt it. It is very easy to sit in judgment on someone else’s chesbon. I hope you never know the tzar this young man and his family will experience because of the selfish act of this Yenta and her counterpart the RY that threw him out. . No offense HolyMoe.
It is a skonos nefoshos situation, as he (or she) can literally destroy other children’s innocence, and bring them towards his wayward ways. Yes, this is a very very bad situation. You wouldn’t say if someone killed someone to give him “three strikes” and forgive, and neither should you here. One is physical life and death; this is spiritual life and death.
what was the nature of his “talking to girls”
was he shmoozing or asking for directions or asking how her brother is
“It is very easy to sit in judgment on someone else’s chesbon. I hope you never know the tzar this young man and his family will experience…”
aries~ it’s good to read your words of reason.
it’s really easy to be an armchair tzaddik/dayan; it is very hurtful to be reading some people’s seemingly cold, heartless comments here.
If this happened the way it was described, the menahel will give din vcheshbon with everyone else who has deliberately tried to drive Jewish children away from their God. I’m not saying I believe the story, but knowing the system I can see it happening.
Please post the name of the yeshiva. It’s the best thing to do to get the kid back in.
edited
Pac-Man, you are over reacting. You are NOT comparing apples to apples. As mother a”h always said “ver hut kinder noch in shteib zol shvagen”. For those who don’t understand yiddish, I will give you a literal and loose translation. The literal is “those who still have kids at home should stay quiet” meaning, no one knows who Hashem will test next so it is better to stop judging and keep your mouth shut!
This could have been a test of the children involved, it could have been a test for the Yenta (sorry holymoe) this could have been a test for the RY, and this can also be a test for those who are quick to judge the child so harshly. Please remember that Yeshiva’s have been throwing out kids for this infraction and ruining their lives for more than a decade already. Has this “consequence” helped or are they still throwing kids out for this same infraction? Think about it!!!!!
Don’t you think that if this was the right consequence it would have impacted the kids in an effective manner and no one would be getting kicked out any longer? If they still have to use these horrendous methods it probably isn’t working, it is a “broken” system. It didn’t work ten years ago and it still doesn’t work now. If they don’t want kids to talk to the other gender the yeshivas and parents should talk to them about it. They should also speak about the horrors of drugs and alcohol. They should speak about why doing these things are wrong for underage kids and for kids who are in the Yeshiva and not on the Shidduch scene. They need to explain to kids why we say “NO” and not just say “NO”.
Right or wrong. it needs to be decided by one of the Gedolim and not by a menahel or on these pages.
I just need to “snort” at the notion that he was asking about if her family was ok, and could you return this to your sister, etc.
Are you that socially ignorant?
IF this story happened, he was talking to her the way boys talk to girls. You know how. Don’t pretend he was asking if her brother in law was coming for shavuos.
Punishment has to fit the crime.
Instead it appears to fit the power structure.
There are far worse things adults in communities do, and are punished far less.
Something that is so far removed from a normal Bachur’s mind is not considered ‘a mistake’. We are obviously coming from two different angles and you just don’t see it as so foreign. I see that from your description of what should be taken lightly.
Yes, it will depend on the norms. In my upbringing, something like this had a 7 mile barrier. It doesn’t get crossed by ‘mistake’. If you are talking about another society, the situation changes. This whole thread, as I said earlier, is theoretical, so we can create the setting of the story, ourself. I gave it a Chassidishe Yeshiva with a good Bachur. You seem not to relate to that. So, change the setting and I’ll agree whole heartedly!
On one point I can agree, though. After his initial scare there is no reason that they shouldn’t negotiate with him.
Aries: I usually neither have the patience nor the time to argue in these threads but now you went overboard.
“Mistakes can be corrected and can be forgiven. “
If his parents prefer a heimish yeshiva, they should instill in their kids that this is comletely unacceptable. They should prevent their kids from doing such a “mistake”.
“the punishment does NOT fit the crime”
It’s not a punishment. It’s a natural consenquence. This boy does not belong in a heimish yeshiva. If he’s an A+ student, let him go to a good MO yeshiva and marry someone his level. I don’t want to send my kids to a yeshiva where this is acceptable. If it’s ok for him then change yeshivos.
“No one suffered, no one lost life or limb over it.”
Goodness. Were you born yesterday? Let’s assume that this innocent discussion will indeed end here, and the boy will not become friendly or flirt with her. The yeshiva would TURN A BLIND EYE to his actions and THAT is a BIG statement. Have you considered his classmates who aren’t as “good” as him and would follow his example? How about the “cool guys” who’d take this one step further? The Achrayus is tremendous. And I don’t think you can take that on your shoulders.
“Maybe if more people would pull their heads out of the sand and out of the shmutz, kids would have more healthy lives and there would be a lot less OTD kids we have to deal with”
Proof please?
Rebbitzen Tzippora Heller states that the frummer you are, the LESS OTDers there are. And if we’ll do as you say we’ll all turn into what MO has become? No, thanks.
The MO posters constantly complain about the trend towards the right. There’s a reason for it: don’t argue with success.
PBA, if you choose to think the worst about someone you automatically will. If you choose to dan l’kaf zchus you will as well. The glass is either half full or half empty depending on the way you choose to look at it. If you want to throw the kid out and are looking to make trouble for him, you will see things the way YOU do. If you know the kid as the OP described a “good boy” who never got into trouble all the years then you would choose as I do to dan l’kaf zchus. It is as simple as that.
Why would you even think something wrong about a good kid. Why would anyone “always choose” to think badly about kids in general. As my friend used to say “G-d don’t make no junk!”. Stop forcing these kids into the molds you expect them to be. Again, he didn’t rob anyone, he didn’t drug anyone, he didn’t hold anyone up, shoot anyone, hurt anyone, etc. Stop making the kid out to be a hoodlum or a villain which he is not.
Why not cut out his tongue while your at it or poke out his eyes? Would that be enough punishment for you for such a terrible aveirah? Please show me in the Torah where these consequences exist for speaking to the other gender. Enough is enough already. Let these kids breathe and live a frum life! Stop cutting them off at the knees and throwing them out like smelly garbage. You would think they suddenly developed tzoras and had to be banished from the land.
There is no reason to be emotionally involved in this story. We don’t even know if it really happened, let alone the details. We can only speculate on what probably happened, if a similar incident did indeed occur.
I don’t think my speculation was off mark. I think it was probably dead center.
Look at it this way.
According to my story, there is teen out there who talks to girls. You don’t even think there is anything wrong with that, so it shouldn’t bother you at all if I judge him that way.
According to your story there is a menahel out there who expels a perfect kid for asking his next door neighbor if her brother is home yet.
I like my world better.
PBA: Thank you. I’m hoarse already.
(I know I shouldn’t be getting emotionally involved, but it pains me greatly.)
This discussion reminds me of this:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-making-of-talmidei-chachomim
“don’t argue with success”
One offshoot from Judaism has 2.1 billion followers.
“One offshoot from Judaism has 2.1 billion followers.”
And 2 out of three of them are leaving the fold.
The other offshoot has about 1.2 billion and counting.
We can argue back and forth about this, but let’s stick with the subject about what happened (or what we think what happened) and the consequences.
No one ever said success is defined by numbers. Your point of the Christian, Muslim, or Buddhist populations is absolutely meaningless.
“The other offshoot has about 1.2 billion and counting.”
And poor and backward and suicidal and…Do you still call them a success?
Unfortunately there is every reason to get emotionally involved and that is because whether THIS particular story is true or not this situation is all too true. AND because there are way too many Yiddishe neshomas chased away from yiddisheit and lost to us because of foolish stubborn decisions made on protocol and not on seichel and compassion when that is what is really needed. In addition, many of the parents who insist that these “bad” kids be thrown out face the same nisyonos somewhere down the line with their own kids or kids that are close to them. At that time they are not running to the administration with “demands” they are running to the hanhalah begging for compassion and mercy.
In addition, the Yeshiva community have not come together to work out a way to transfer students from the Yeshivish to the more modern academia where these infractions would NOT be an issue. They are thrown out to the streets and once thrown out NO OTHER yeshiva will touch them with a ten foot pole. Why can’t the Rosh call the modern orthodox yeshiva and say to the menahel or Rosh there, “I have an excellent student, a metzuyan academically but he broke the rule by speaking to a girl. Could you please give him a farher, you will be very pleased with him.” Why must a bochur be treated like yesterday’s garbage? Why not find some other form of consequence? Honestly, he didn’t ruin his life by speaking to a girl, the yeshiva did. He could have been helped. Many of the kids that have been shoved off the derech could have been helped and aided by caring mentors. And yes, many might not have cared because the issues did not begin in the yeshiva but in the home. But even then if the Yeshiva would have noticed early enough, they could have made a difference in those children’s lives as well.
Why are kids being taken for granted. Yes I am emotional about this because I worked with the At-Risk population and they are in pain. And if their families were not dysfunctional before they were thrown out from yeshiva they certainly became dysfunctional and broken afterwards. It effects more than just the child. When a Yeshiva throws even one child out, it effects the entire mishpacha, don’t kid yourselves it does. And anyone who has a hand in it, whether it is the moser, or the parents who the yeshiva say “want this” or the yeshiva administrations themselves, will have have to answer for the damage they caused.
These are serious issues, and no one should take it lightly. In this particular scenario, the Rosh if he had to, could have told the Bochur that he can not come to graduation but he can take all his tests and he will get his deserved grade and diploma. Who would have been hurt by that? Can anyone say that any other boy would have been influenced to the bad by such a consequence? Is not going to graduation not enough of a consequence? Is not partying with your class not enough of a consequence?
So yes I am emotional and I don’t think asking why they don’t cut out his tongue or poke his eyes out is any more ridiculous than shoving these kids off the derech. Or maybe you would prefer a public flogging?
I think both sides above are converging towards a shared solution. There should be a way that someone thrown out of a Yeshivisha Yeshiva for breaching something like the gender separations should be found a way to go to a MO Yeshiva.
I think the biggest obstacle to this solution is the pupil in question and his/her parents themselves. They don’t want to go there.
Why couldn’t Avraham Avinu keep Yishmael? I mean, he wasn’t Yitzchok. He wasn’t made out of the same stuff. So he acted up! He made a mistake. Did he really have to kick him out in the prime of his life? According to two out of three Pshatim he didn’t hurt anyone.
As I said earlier, you have to put yourself into another society’s mindset and judge from there. That is the basic meaning of Ad Shetagia Limikomo. The inability to do so, is what drove the western powers to try to influence other people’s values, and urn their disdain, and what caused this recent uproar about the picture.
In one community it is considered acceptable, innocent, or even ‘Mentchlich’. In another community, as in this mythical Yeshiva, in is not only unacceptable, but unheard of and completely out of the box.
The problem is that a good boy of such a Yeshiva would not casually fall in to this. Second of all, he would not be surprized by the Hanhala’s reaction. Third of all, it would not be considered alleged after the facts are undebated. All this and more (timing, “yenta” …) tells us that the OP probably made it up as he went along.
It’s very tempting to blame the yeshiva and principal. However, we really don’t know the whole story. There are always three sides to a story. His side, their side and the truth. I can’t imagine that a principle who is aware of teens that are going off the derech R”L, would make such a terrible choice.
PacMan: I find this entire situation absurd – if it even happened at all. The fact that any school would expel a child by virtue of an unfounded rumor is beyond belief. You are also speculating by saying that the parents of this child don’t want him to transfer to a MO yeshivah. It is difficult for me to believe that any parent would prefer to throw out their child’s entire last year of high school – thereby sacrificing his future education – rather than have any other school accept him. For heaven sake, for 3 weeks, he could transfer to the nearest public high school – at least he will get a diploma.
I have another minor point – in order not to offend anyone, how about if we change the name of the alleged perpetrator of this rumor from “yenta” to “yachnah”?
Pac Man, not true, I disagree. Just because a bochur gave into a taiva does not mean he didn’t want to go there or he doesn’t want to be there. That is assuming way too much on your part. Especially when it was his first offense. If you are talking about a bochur who is normally speaking to girls, then that is another conversation and then you would be correct.
Minyangal, I agree that it is beyond belief but unfortunately it is common practice. They get booted out with no where to go.
I just want to say that my arguments are only to point out that it is much more than a misdemeanor. I do agree with aries’ critique of how easily boys are sometimes expelled. I once heard B’sheim the Chazon Ish that kicking out a boy is Dinei Nefashos and needs a Bes Din of 23. There was one instance where he allowed for them to kick out a boy, but only on the condition that the Rosh Yeshiva learn with him every day.
“I think the biggest obstacle to this solution is the pupil in question and his/her parents themselves. They don’t want to go there.”
I agree. It’s mainly the responsibility of the parents to get their child into a new yeshiva, not the old yeshivas’. If they would move quickly to get into the MO yeshiva, 9 times out of 10, the kid would be accepted. If they dawdle and fight the old yeshiva or try similar types of “Ultra-frum” yeshivos, they most likely won’t be successful and the kid is “Meyiish”(gives up). After this, it becomes very easy for him to go OTD! The parents have to take their ego out of the equation. Right or wrong, accept the Yeshiva’s decision and move on. Fighting city hall doesn’t work. I don’t mean that you can’t try to speak with them or have s/1 intervene on your behalf, but if this doesn’t work, send the kid to a MO yeshiva!
I’m laughing that everyone wants to send the “problem” Yeshivish kids to MO Yeshivas.
Aries, if I were that kid, I would get my GED. Unless he had aspirations of Harvard, for most schools that’s ok. I wouldn’t let myself be bullied by a Principal.
Makes perfect sense if it is a Chassidish Yeshiva (Perhaps MSseeker can weigh in here and explain?). Also a “yeshivish” yeshiva with a reputation to defend, or the girl’s Father on the board (OMG, a boy talking to my little baby!).
There are details missing, and I wonder what they are.
Charlie H had the best suggestion. If the story is true, the menahel should be called to a Din Torah. If the menahel fails to appear, then the name can be publicized (but from my experience, boys (good, bad or otherwise) don’t get tossed on the 1st offense.
bpt – Fighting them won’t help, perhaps talking or pleading.
Also Charlie is wrong. While technically a woman can’t be an “Aid”, the Bais Din isn’t calling her as one. And as far as the yeshiva, they didn’t just rely on her statement, the Bochur admitted it!
I don’t know what yeshivos you went to, but most that I know would/do chuck on a first offense, if it was serious enough!
SJS – “I’m laughing that everyone wants to send the “problem” Yeshivish kids to MO Yeshivas.”
I know. Isn’t it amazing that we still consider MO schools within the Frum velt (world)? I just hope the time doesn’t come when we consider MO, just like we consider the Reform & Conservatives!
Why should the MO yeshiva take the boy.
MO schools are made for MO people not people the more right wing yeshivas dont want or expellese.
Besides an A Student at A right wing yeshiva would likely flunk at a MO yeshiva. Right wing schools tend to have poor secular studies while at MO schools the secular studies are important too. They take regular regents usually at MO schools not RCT exams.
Most Chareidish Yeshiva’s in NY take the regular regents.
Maybe this belongs here, maybe in the other one.
I read once about a principal (forgot who), whose secretary would every day bring to him something to eat for breakfast. One morning he pushed it aside. He told the startled secretary the following: There’s a din about the sanhedrin when contemplating a case regarding capital punishment, they push it off untill the next day, reviewing and reexamining the whole night. The next day they do not eat until they render judgment. Said he, to his secretary, today he’d be expelling a boy from his Yeshiva, he realizes this is a capital punishment (???? ?????) issue, therefore he is not permitted to eat! When one goes forth with such an attitude, things are seen and measured entirely different!
My family members who attend Charedi yeshivas took the RCTS and laughed about what a bittul torah it was
Regents. Snort.
I got a 95 on the chemistry regents, despite not doing any work the entire year until 3 weeks before, and having failing grades the entire year. (Final report card said: Grade-65, Regents-95, Comments-test scores are poor.)
I got a 93 on Math III (the old system), after spending the whole year standing at the back window and looking outside during class (I was in a fight with the teacher). There wasn’t even anything interesting outside.
If your proof that they are serious is from the Regents, I am not very convinced.
My family members who attend Charedi yeshivas took the RCTS and laughed about what a bittul torah it was
Don’t blame the rest of us for their attitude.
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I got a 93 on Math III (the old system), after spending the whole year standing at the back window and looking outside during class (I was in a fight with the teacher). There wasn’t even anything interesting outside.
Not even a boat?
I am assuming that the story was as originally stated and not that this kid was a habitual flirt who had been warned.
It seems to me that several lessons were learned from this event- probably not intentionally. The first one is that to be really frum you have follow the rules to the point of being merciless. Some kids will learn that. OTOH, some kids have now learned that the idea of Modeh v’Ozeiv Yerucham (confess, stop sinning, and get mercy) does not work. i.e. no Teshuva. Furthermore, many will now think that the best way to deal with authority is to deny/lie. Had he not admitted, he might have not been punished. Clearly, being truthful did not help. Lastly, one might see that being a gossiper (like the neighbor in this story) gives one power and is sanctioned by the frum establishment.
What says you? I’m curious to hear if aries has heard any thoughts like these from her clients.
The point was to save the other vulnerable children who, G-d forbid, could have come under his severely negative influence.
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