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What about Rebbetzin Jungreis?
I heard that she gives a monthly shiur in a shul near where she lives, and only women are invited.
Her speeches to a mixed crowd are for kiruv purposes; I’m sure she received a p’sak.
Wolf: Ain Apitropus L’Arayos does not depend on the age of the girl. (Stam, not to say fathers can’t attend graduations).
I tend to agree with this. Women and girls think it is the most important thing in the torah.
It isn’t.
Popa: Based on what the Kitzur says is the worst Avairah possible, Tznius is probably the most important thing in the torah (Simin 151, if you need to know)
Wolfish: In response to your remarks on my comment (that you quoted), I fully concur with what gavra said in response.
I wonder if we can start instituting all the women to wear veals. this way a man won’t be forced to look at other women and this would avoid all improper thoughts.
WolfishMusing- Should we apply Godwin’s law? 🙂
Wolf: But it does mean we (as Talmudists) have to act like as if it is a distinct possibility.
I wonder if we can start instituting all the women to wear veals. this way a man won’t be forced to look at other women and this would avoid all improper thoughts.
While I do admit it would disguise the female, I believe a veal would be too heavy for the purpose stated (sorry, typo was too good to be passed up, and it is that sort of day).
I wonder if we can start instituting all the women to wear veals.
i think it is an idea with some promise and should be considered. however im afraid peta would probably vehemently oppose the idea. besides the fact that it would be quite expensive and cumbersome, not to mention messy.
perhaps a scarf or veil would make more sense.
What about Rebbetzin Jungreis?
I don’t claim that it is assur for a woman to speak in front of men. It is a sensitivity, and depending on the circumstances and the need, it can be appropriate.
Popa: Based on what the Kitzur says is the worst Avairah possible, Tznius is probably the most important thing in the torah (Simin 151, if you need to know)
Sorry, I am unconvinced. I think that is down-right crazy to say tznius is the most important thing in the torah.
(And I don’t think that citation proves anything. I can find you somewhere where it says any aveira is the worst one.)
Wolf: But it does mean we (as Talmudists) have to act like as if it is a distinct possibility.
To what extent? Do you leave the house anytime your teen daughter has a friend over? Does your wife leave when your son has friends over? Do you leave the house whenever your son and daughter-in-law come over for a meal (heck, she’s an actual erva to you, unlike your daughter’s high-school classmate)? If your mother in law were to start telling a story at the Shabbos table, would you not listen? After all, ain apitropus l’arayos, right? We have to treat the situation as there is a distinct possibility that you might have lascivious thoughts, right?
The Wolf
LOL, ok, sorry I missed the type.
typo
Wolf: That is why I disagree with the results, but not with the thoughts behind it (if those are the reasons).
The Torah and Chazal created gedarim for Arayos (Yichud, Negiya, etc.) just for this reason.
(And I don’t think that citation proves anything. I can find you somewhere where it says any aveira is the worst one.)
Please find me a cite where it says that breaking the bone of the Korban Pesach is the worst aveira possible. 🙂
(Not that I disagree with your overall point… just picking up on the challenge presented.)
The Wolf
“I wonder if we can start instituting all the women”
Well, if all the women are instituted, and the men aren’t allowed to enter said institution, no tznius problem!
WolfishMusings,
While I personally would disagree with the decision to restrict men from a graduation, assuming there were no performances or the like, and similarly I would disagree with “photoshopping” out pictures of modestly clad women in a newspaper, I think that it’s possible that you are working with a different definition of “improper thoughts” than those who are disagreeing with you.
A question: suppose a large group of healthy, normal men were shown two pictures, one of an attractive woman, and one of a tree. Following this, they are polled on which picture they liked better. Or, better yet, film their eyes and record the length of time that they focused on each picture. Which picture do you think would “win”?
Another question: why don’t advertisers put pictures of trees next to sports cars they are selling?
These realities are part of being a normal man; however, as Jews, I think we should attempt to keep all of our focus solely on our wives, since that is where kedusha and appropriateness are found.
Is this thread discussing whether we think men should be at high school girl’s graduations; or whether we should be making fun of and criticizing people who think one way or the other; or whether people who think one way or the other and run schools are bad people if they impose their view on the school they run?
popa_bar_abba,
Is this thread discussing whether we think men should be at high school girl’s graduations; or whether we should be making fun of and criticizing people who think one way or the other; or whether people who think one way or the other and run schools are bad people if they impose their view on the school they run?
Yes:-)
“Another question: why don’t advertisers put pictures of trees next to sports cars they are selling?”
Note: They dont put pictures of frum women next to cars either. They wouldnt use a picture of Hillary Clinton or Barbara Bush either.
o.k. let us try to help you understand what is going on, and yes i am a person involved. I chose to send my daughter to this school because after many discussions back and forth with various parents rabbonim and school hanhala i did pick this school out for the hashkofos they had.And yes this is an added on rule that was just started this year. My wife did go to a chassidishe b.y. in n.y. and there were men in the audience with long beards and peiyos. I myself was raised in a city definitly not like N.Y. but the small yeshiva and the dayschool ,even though mixed classes till i think 5th grade, had many black hat chaim berlin type and many other frum frum people. Now don’t be shocked by this but friends ate at friends houses,By that i mean family’s with a boy and girl the same ages. I even did science projects worked on reports and worked on color wars with OMG!!! Girls. Everyone in our community pretty much knew everyone else from the frie to the frum frum. we enjoyed each others chasunahs and cried at each others levayas. And yes we spoke to the girls in the lunchroom and in the halls, and mind you i was only there through 9th grade we also spoke to the girls in shul at the grocery store, etc. You want to know something most of the kids from those families have grown up to be nice frum parents of nice frum kids some in business some in chinuch, some in the states and some in eretz yisroe-l. Yes i grew up in a different time but you know something i think if we go back to those times, which we can possibly do with a little more caution and caring with our kids our otd problem might not go away but i bet it will be a little better. little side note I wear a bekishe as does my son and did my father z”tl with uphits and come from very chassidishe background.So please you people who think I might be some kind of masher for wanting to see my daughter get her diploma, and yes it is very important to me, look in the mirror you might be the ones who chas v’shalom might be causing the next kid to go otd.I know i won’t.ease up.
chaplain: Actually that intermingling you describe is far more likely to cause children to go otd, than the separation that you decry.
i can see no reason for fathers , grandfathers, brothers and so on not to be able to see their dear daughter, grand daughter, sister graduate.
its ludicrous. if the female teachers dont want men there for a speech then have davening at that time. but by all means let the parent see their child get called up and get their diploma. this is naches!
next rule will be no fathers can sign tuition checks, only mothers.
Ehhh.
pacman?
not in the slightest!
As one of my friends just said to me recently ” the by girls are worse then the coed girls”
If you teach your children what is right and wrong in a moderate environment they are far less likely to go off then if they grow up where you make blanket statements of what is wrong.
100% true whatesleisleft
chaplaintzvi. And who said it was right?
What if we put up a mechitza on the stage so the girls can’t be seen and speeches are delivered through voice distortion equipment
problem solved
“next rule will be no fathers can sign tuition checks, only mothers”
Yeah – nah, I don’t see that being a problem any time soon.
It seems to me that shimen and pac-man ( by the way why would you take a name based after a very popular video game back in the 80’s?)
seem to be young and have grown up in a very sheltered black hat life. Which I think is wonderful for them. Do you know anything about what is going on in the world around you, i.e. current events. My b.y. daughter takes current events in school and she and other girls in her class where they know what is going on do put an emphasis on limudei kodesh. Honestly my daughter could quote rashi and other meforshim alot better than i could. Sorry guys but that was not because of intermingling I just didn’t have the kup for it. But when it comes to morals and ethics especially how to treat someone, we in our city were always taught to be menchlich no matter who it was, yes girls and boy yid and non yid alike, and yes all the rabbonim, some who have written seforim that I know you have heard of, were involved in this education.
chaplain: shimen is a grandfather many times over and nor am I very young. And the “black hat sheltered life” you derisively decry has a far lower otd rate that the non-black hat/sheltered. Yes, chaplain, sheltering works and intermingling is throwing the dice with your and your children’s spiritual lives.
I totally understand where these parents are coming from. As Jews who focus on how to raise our children to best serve Hashem,the graduation ceremony is an important part of chinuch banos and we need to emphasize its importance to our children so that they will grow up recognizing that these are the things that Hashem wants from us.
Why don’t people really understand “???? ????? ????”? That ????? which comes from the word meaning “separate” can only come to those who separate themselves in moderation. There needs to be moderation. The ???? clearly meant that we should only separate ourselves, sometimes not always- moderation is the key.
The biggest proof that ????? is only in moderation is because that is what a chassidishe BY does and what some people did growing up. And other such stories. Obviously if they did it, it must be the correct thing to do.
I hope that parents in this situation will not squander the opportunity to teach their daughters about the importance of the graduation ceremony, by staying out of the ceremony to emphasize them that ????? is important to klal yisroel. I really worry about these peoples’ skewed priorities.
Back in the mid-70s I went to a non-musical HS play at a BY. I was invited because I was a friend of one of the girls in the play. There were plenty of other males in the audience – fathers, brothers, etc.
No, the BY was not in New York.
I’m not sure which is funnier – that I went to a BY play, or that I had a friend who was a girl that went to BY.
excuse me?
how does gowtby get though the filters?
thanks
bing bing bing wrong again pac-man. Come to the very large city where i live in now and i will show you many many kids otd that lived the very frum life even chassidishe life from the begining. I think derech hamelech said it right. Moderation is the key, along with guidance and a careful watch on these kids. The coed high school here in the city sends many kids to Israel, hesder, go through ncsy, which by the way I was an advisor in for a number of years, and boy you should see how frum and ehrlich they turned out. not that their school is right for me but you sure cannot say intermingling caused mor otd. DEFINITLY NOT!!!
when you go from by/very extreme yeshiva / segregated –> coed environment there might be issues
but if the child is raised with family friends who are the opposite gender then they many times become more frum
chaplain: Do yourself a favor and not comment on what you clearly don’t know. The percentage of otd from Chareidi yeshivos is far below the percentage from MO (i.e. mingling) schools.
And the “black hat sheltered life” you derisively decry has a far lower otd rate that the non-black hat/sheltered.
Huh?!
chaplaintzvi,
You say that you picked this school because of its hashkafos, yet the school’s hashkafos are clearly not in line with yours.
DerechHamelech,
I don’t understand your post; the last paragraph seems to contradict the first three.
Like Daas Yochid, I’m also left scratching my head at Derech HaMelech’s contradictory post. I do though agree that schools and families that allow boys and girls to mix in social settings from when they are no longer very young until they are older, have a higher off the derech rate.
The point was that this policy should have been stated last Summer so that incoming families would be aware and have the opportunity to choose another school that would allow Fathers at the girls graduation. To spring this on families after Pesach is wrong. Another point is that we are always reading about how a girl’s confidence is linked to her shared experiences with her Father. Why is the school bringing bad feelings into what should be a time of shared nachas. If some Fathers or daughters object, then don’t show up to the graduation.
DY:
No they’re not. You just have to read it with the right inflection. Try using “sarcasm” while reading all four paragraphs.
“I just don’t understand. What’s the big deal?
Its not like a guy who is being bored out of his mind with nothing but high school girls to look at will be a problem of tznius.”
I dont think the schools have a problem with fathers being there but once they open up a mens section then it turns into brothers and uncles etc….
No they’re not. You just have to read it with the right inflection. Try using “sarcasm” while reading all four paragraphs.
I didn’t say they were contradictory, I said they seemed so; I wanted an explanation.
The sarcasm seems to end in the last paragraph.
sorry pac_man( and I still want to know why the name pac_man}i have worked and still talk to kids from all walks of life. I see first hand, because this city is so diverse and because of the very public positions i have had, what kind of kids have gone otd and what kind of families they have come from. Unfortunatly you and I don’t know each other and probably never will, we could probably have some great discussions about various topics. Problem is you do not, as far as I can tell, have to do with people other than your type and I do not mean any disrespect by that. You just probably have not dealt on a day to day basis with such a broad range of people that I have. No I am not a frum bartender. But please unless you have come from where I came from or have walked in my shoes,or dealt with the people that I have dealt with, do not say that I don”t know what I am talking about. To jakyweb the policy as i said was started at the end of last year, a month or two before the graduating class of 2010, so my kids were there way before policy was instituted, and no one said boo until then. This is a totally new rule.I agree with your last statement if you don”t want to be there don”t come to the graduation, sad but true
by the way MODS – where is the first post? you know the one that started this whole thread. someone else asked you that but you never answered or put it back!
The sarcasm seems to end in the last paragraph.
What I meant to say was that people are squandering the opportunity to emphasize the importance of kedusha in the machaneh by teaching them that their graduation ceremonies are more important.
The way I see it, we could be showing our children that even during such wonderful accomplishments we are still an a goy kadosh and act accordingly.
chaplain: I must assuredly do have much experiences with other types, including all those I referred to. And what I stated earlier is indeed correct, with regards to the propensity of otd on a comparative basis.
DerechHamelech,
That’s what I thought, but that point was seemingly made without sarcasm. I reread it, and now I see how you were using sarcasm for that part as well.
Had you not meant your point about kedusha being in moderation sarcastically, I would have asked you how you understood the S.A.’s use of the term “me’od me’od” when referring to separation of men and women.
chaplaintzvi,
Until they changed the rule about fathers at graduation, did the school believe in mixed socializing as you do?
I don’t have any statistics on who goes “off the derech” more, those who engage in mixed socializing or those who don’t (and I doubt you do either, and your anecdotal experience is not evidence) but the point is really not relevant. The solution to the problem of kids going off the derech is NOT to change our derech!
Derech Hamelech, there is more kedusha in both parents attending their daughter’s granduation and ELEVATING the occasion to one of kedusha, than trying to eliminate an entire 50% of parents from attending. What if the girl HAS no mother? What if she has NO female role model that will stand up when she walks in and clap for her with nachas? This is way overboard, and I am surprised more parents have not pulled their kids out of such schools, and taught them that this is NOT frumkeit.It was good enough for men and women to stand together at Har Sinai to receive the Torah, it should be good enough for them to sit in the same room and watch their daughter receive her diploma. Have separate seating, if you must, but do not eliminate the fathers and pride yourself on the kedusha. All the posters who have spoken out affirmatively for the father’s right to attend, have made good points.
ATTENTION POPA, PAC MAN, AND ALL OTHERS WHO ARE JUDGING US.
1) Our hashkafos ARE the same as that of our daughters’ school! Please do not be so quick to condemn us. Yes there are areas in which we disagree. That doesn’t mean we are so different. Our children are very careful about Tznius, lashon hara etc. They are B”H very much into their frumkeit. They NEVER mingle with the opposite gender!
So please do not suggest we send our children to MO schools. That is quite different from our hashkafos!!!
2) WE REPEAT – IN CASE YOU MISSED IT THE FIRST FEW TIMES WE MENTIONED IT: The school did not have this graduation rule when our girls started there. In fact this is the first one of our daughters whose graduation is affected by this.
3) I myself went to a very frum school in Brooklyn and our fathers were invited to the graduation. I have also spoken to friends who’s children are in different FRUM (not MO) schools here and in NY, NJ etc. and fathers do come to the graduations.
4) In fact there was a very well known Rav (I will not mention his name because I don’t want any loshon hara to start) who would probably not have had a problem with this. At the graduations from his yeshiva, there were a few times when women spoke. There was also mixed seating at their banquets. NO – THEY WERE NOT MO! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A VERY FRUM RIGHT WING GROUP.
5) I feel like we are being attacked by certain posters on here who obviously don’t even know us. But yet they are so ready to judge us and tell us where to send our kids. The CR is a place to express opinions – not attack or be attacked.
6) As far as sheltered schools not having a problem with OTD, unfortunately that’s not true at all. We know of many families with that problem not only in our city but yes in NY as well.
With all that said, we can only daven to Hashem that Moshiach come soon. The world is in a crazy state right now. We see things unfolding quite rapidly. Yes it’s scary. But we must have bitachon. We all have areas in which we can improve. We must all try our best so we can be zoche to Moshiach very soon.
Have a Great Lag B’Omer everyone!!!
By the way – Thank you to all the posters who do agree with, and support us.
Hmmm. I don’t particularly appreciate being lumped with other posters whose comments I take no responsibility for.
1) Our hashkafos ARE the same as that of our daughters’ school! Please do not be so quick to condemn us. Yes there are areas in which we disagree. That doesn’t mean we are so different. Our children are very careful about Tznius, lashon hara etc. They are B”H very much into their frumkeit. They NEVER mingle with the opposite gender!
So please do not suggest we send our children to MO schools. That is quite different from our hashkafos!!!
That’s nice. I don’t think you should send your kids to an MO school. Why should you punish your kids for your own mishigas?
2) WE REPEAT – IN CASE YOU MISSED IT THE FIRST FEW TIMES WE MENTIONED IT: The school did not have this graduation rule when our girls started there. In fact this is the first one of our daughters whose graduation is affected by this.
Also nice. So your contention is that a school is always wrong if they change any rule and don’t exempt current students.
3) I myself went to a very frum school in Brooklyn and our fathers were invited to the graduation. I have also spoken to friends who’s children are in different FRUM (not MO) schools here and in NY, NJ etc. and fathers do come to the graduations.
Not all very frum schools have the same rules. Why don’t you find a school that has more of the rules you like. Actually, why don’t you find a school that has education you like and just manage with the other stuff.
4) In fact there was a very well known Rav (I will not mention his name because I don’t want any loshon hara to start) who would probably not have had a problem with this. At the graduations from his yeshiva, there were a few times when women spoke. There was also mixed seating at their banquets. NO – THEY WERE NOT MO! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A VERY FRUM RIGHT WING GROUP.
Oh. So all school can’t have any standards which conflict with this rav’s.
5) I feel like we are being attacked by certain posters on here who obviously don’t even know us. But yet they are so ready to judge us and tell us where to send our kids. The CR is a place to express opinions – not attack or be attacked.
Hmmm. Valid point. You shouldn’t feel attacked on the CR. Sorry if I seem attacking.
But, you seem to feel attacked by the opinions, not by the tone. So no apology. “The CR is a place to express opinions…”
Look, the only point I recall making on this thread is that the schools standard is a valid opinion, which I can understand, and I think anyone should be able to understand.
I don’t think you can have a taana on the school for adopting a standard. If you don’t like it, switch schools. (No don’t, it isn’t your kids fault, like I said before.)
So yes, I am judging you. I think you are making a big deal out of nothing, and not being respectful towards other people’s standards in tznius. Tell your daughter you wish you could be there but you appreciate the schools stand on tznius. Then make a party for her that afternoon or afterward.
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