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why do girls schools ban fathers from attending their daughters grauations? my last daughter is graduating this yr and the fathers are only allowed to attend by the guest speaker and the reception afterwards. this means i will not be able to see my daughter receive her diploma, and ultimately, graduate.
and why are they doing this? because it is not tznius, or so they say. what has this world come to? since when is it not tznius for a father to see his daughter graduate. there is no singing or dancing, just four speeches by the valedictorians and salutitorians. all the girls are wearing these big fat gowns, which are definitely not an issue when it comes to tznius.
so what are they trying to do? suffocate us with what they THINK is frummer? this is not frum, it’s downright stupidity! since when is it not tznius for girls to talk! i happen to know of many ppl who graduated from rebbitzen kaplan’s schools in bp and williamsburg, and the fathers were always invited! don’t tell me rebbitzen kaplan was not frum enough! cr, what’s ur opinion?
I’m ok with it. I think it is not very tznius for girls to be on stage making speeches to men.
Even if you think it is ok, you should be able to see how someone else may have an issue with it.
Hmmm. We received the invitation to our daughters graduation this past friday and both mother and father were invited, to the whole program. Admittedly, it is a pre-1a graduation.
All I can say in response to the OP is kul hamosif, goreah.
I hate sitting through speeches. At least now I have an legitimate excuse. They won’t let me sit and listen 🙂
when he wasnt allowed to come to my H.S. graduation my father said he paid my tuition all through the years why cant he see what that money went to? unfortunately that didnt help anything and he still couldnt come!
gotta take the policies you like along with the ones you don’t when you choose a school for your kids.
you are aware you put this on yourself.
you chose this school for your daughter.
was the rest of her education good?
was it worth all the tution you paid?
so what if you don’t get to see if all money /effort you put in was worth it.
PBA – if you are not comfortable with girls speaking then you don’t have to sit through
Perhaps my daughter is not comfortable with you being there.
I just don’t understand. What’s the big deal?
Its not like a guy who is being bored out of his mind with nothing but high school girls to look at will be a problem of tznius.
DQB
I you don’t like rules like this, don’t send your daughter there!
If girl spent 12 years in this type of school, most likely she wants to be married to the boy, who will learn at least 12 years in a kollel. In this case the graduation is the only turning point from the time, when you will stop paying $ 5,000.00 per year to time, when you get ready to pay $50,000.00 a year to support your son-in-law. So, ask your wife to take a camera to graduation. Do not make a big deal.
Working on it – thanks for your post! You said it like it is!
Shrek and Whatelseisleft – the school did not have this policy when our kids started there. My husband was allowed to attend the other graduations we had. Yes we are very happy with the education etc. But we are not happy about this “frum” decision. read the op’s comment about schools in boro park and williamsburg. are we frumer than they?
CV – not all the girls are planning to marry full time learners. believe me, we cannot afford to support a kollel couple with $50,0000 a year. a lot of other parents are in the same position.
If you don’t like the rules, don’t send your daughter there is an excellent policy. What do you tell the fathers of those 8th grade girls whose schools instituted such a policy, this year and notified the parents of such a policy, after pesach.
Again, I personally am for any policy that says I don’t have to sit and listen to anyone speak.
are we really turning out better kids with all these rules? in our day there was no question about fathers coming to graduations and kids going off the derech were a tiny percentage of kids. now we are so frum fathers can’t see their daughters graduate but all we hear about is kids at risk. maybe the schools need to reevaluate some of these newer policies.
I am curious – does this mean that none of the Roshei Yeshivah or rabbonim are present at these graduations?
My father was allowed to come to my HS graduation but he did not. I did not need him there….I got my present and hug when I came home and that was enough for me. It was so boring for me to sit through, why would I make him sit there also?
does this mean that none of the Roshei Yeshivah or rabbonim are present at these graduations?
Yes, it does mean that.
Adorable: I am glad you got your hug and your present and that it was enough for you. I wonder if it was really enough for him, even if he said otherwise. It’s hard for me to envision a dad that would not take great nachas from seeing his daughter graduate (even more so if she were valedictorian) and I cannot understand why any father would be denied that nachas, “boring” or not.
Papa “does this mean that none of the Roshei Yeshivah or rabbonim are present at these graduations?
Yes, it does mean that.”
NO – It happens not to mean that. The Roshei Yeshiva and rabbonim who teach at the school WILL be there. In fact one or two of them will speak.
I’m devistated!!!!!!!!!!!! My father was allowed to go to all the other graduations in my family, and now he can’t come to mine?! My graduation is the only one in the family he wouldn’t be attending?! We are a very close family, and I want my father there! Why is my school doing this to me?! They are ruining such a potentially wonderful day! My father’s coming and that’s that!
Men have no busness being where there will be bunches of teenage girls. Thats how terrible things happen. Back in the old days you never had men going to womens graduations.
Um….Hello its his daughters graduation!! let both parent come!!
mosherose – EXCUSE ME??!! What old days are you talking about? I’m not going to say how many years ago I graduated. But let me say this. I went to a VERY FRUM SCHOOL (there were a lot of chassidish girls there too) and guess what? FATHERS WERE INVITED TO OUR GRADUATION!!! Yes – men with long beards and payos were there!
Gumball – right on!!!
this should be your worst nisayon in life, that you were not permitted to go to your daughter’s graduation. Get over it and be thankful for what you have. Many would do anything to be in your shoes.
i feel bad for the father that can’t see their daughter graduate. i would have been so upset if my father didn’t come to mine, and i can’t imagine what it would have felt like for my friend who was valedictorian. if the men and women sit separately i don’t think it’s bad i guess it’s just the matter of tzenuis .
mosherose:
in the old days girls didn’t go to school.
in the old days girls didnt memorize rambans either.
Commonsense: Great point!!!
Mods: where is the op’s post? also i noticed some other posts are missing as well. ex: the post from -working on it.
one more comment for mosherose: “that’s how terrible things happen”? Oh – Please – give me a break. what terrible things happen from fathers going to a graduation? we’re not talking about a bunch of sick men stalking cute girls!
Personally I think that if fathers can’t come to graduations, then girls shouldn’t be allowed to have men as teachers. Many times girls sit in class and their legs are exposed whether it’s by accident or carelessness. If anything, the girls are much more tznius in the gowns on stage when we are completely covered. And if the issue is listening to girls speaking on stage, then men shouldn’t teach girls because girls have class conversations and the Rabeim hear their voices. Is there something that maybe I’m missing in this issue?
Let the fathers be there for the Rabbanims drashos, menahels words, awards etc. and then make a mincha minyan (or Maariv minyan)in a different room when the 2 or 3 individual girls speak. Is this a good Peshara?
To alleviate feelings of girls who do not want to speak in the presence of men… how about a video feed to a separate room?? this can alleviate and accomplish a lot for many people and their concerns!
Back in the old days you never had men going to womens graduations.
Really? You’re old enough to know this? Please enlighten all of us and tell us where you picked up this particular pearl of wisdom. Let us know which schools and which years.
are we really turning out better kids with all these rules? in our day there was no question about fathers coming to graduations and kids going off the derech were a tiny percentage of kids. now we are so frum fathers can’t see their daughters graduate but all we hear about is kids at risk. maybe the schools need to reevaluate some of these newer policies.
So that’s what’s causing kids at risk! Fathers not going to graduations!
To alleviate feelings of girls who do not want to speak in the presence of men
IMHO, those girls are missing something from their high school education, i.e. a public speaking course.
Friends:
I am bothered by this thread. I don’t think anybody has a right to criticize how someone else observes tznius.
If a school has decided that their standards of tznius are that their young women should not give public speeches in front of their friend’s fathers, that is a perfectly legitimate expression of the school’s standard.
As it happens, I find it surprising that most of you would not personally have a problem with it. This is a pretty basic standard in our world, that women do not speak at public events before men.
Why do you think your shul doesn’t have women speakers? (SJS, Charlie, yes, I know your shul does.)
Is it because they have nothing worth hearing? I doubt it. It is because it is not tznius.
On this one, I agree with popa. The shuls I attend do have women speakers — I heard one give a shiur just this past Shabat. (The topic was mikvaot in America.) But if the school decides on a policy, it is their right to have that policy, and my right to send my daughter to a different school if I don’t like it. Everyone who sent their daughters to this school knew their hashkafah and I do not have any sympathy.
This is VERY different from the recent doctoring of a photograph to remove Sen. Clinton’s image; they could simply have not published any photograph at all but instead chose to mislead and published a photograph that implied that she was not present. I have no sympathy for the editors who published the doctored photograph.
Men have no busness being where there will be bunches of teenage girls. Thats how terrible things happen.
Yes, that’s right. Because I went to my daughter’s graduation, all sorts of terrible things happened.
If you truly feel that terrible things happen to girls because their fathers attend their graduations, then I am personally willing to take responsibility for everything terrible that happens to every girl in that class for the rest of their lives.
The Wolf
Thanks charlie!
Everyone who sent their daughters to this school knew their hashkafah and I do not have any sympathy.
Unless this policy represents a shift to the right and was sprung on parents when it was too late to change anything*.
The Wolf
* I don’t know that to be the actual here — I’m speaking in the hypothetical.
“Yes, that’s right. Because I went to my daughter’s graduation, all sorts of terrible things happened.”
Come on, Wolfish.
If a son comes from school, and says he was talking with girls, but nothing happened…so it’s ok?
Let me wager a guess that bored men staring at even the most tznius of women has at least one time caused a bad thought etc. It’s pashut.
I am not saying its the worst situation by any means and it is definitely mutar (I am not posek but I think its obvious)…but its not ideal IMO and a school that chooses to do so is hardly deserving of “TOO FRUM” sticker.
Not to mention, the nachas one gets from a daughter should not be the giving a diploma in a funky hat and gown. It should the work and maturity gained from the years of High School. I do sympathize with a father who has shelled out the bucks and does want that Kodak moment…but l’maaseh its not a particular yiddishe sach to be obsessed with a graduation ceremony.
DQB
Maybe it’s because the women should not be speaking in front of men?
We have a Rav speak in my daughter’s school, but he comes in when it’s his turn to speak, and then leaves immediately.
“It’s far from pashut. You’re basically accusing all men of being disgusting lechers.”
I did not mean to say all men are “lechers”. I just that such a thing has occurred. My fault for my lack of clarity.
“That’s a separate argument and really has nothing to do with the issue at hand since the same applies to boys’ graduations.”
I admit I should also have been for clear. The argument is as follows. If I want to send by son or daughter to a place where I get to go to a competitive basketball game, have him or her join the Model UN, and wear a frilly hat then that is my choice, fine.
But if I want to send them to a school (the type I am assuming that is being discussed) who are not overly influenced by secular culture but rather Torah hashkafa etc., then what I am doing harping about my lack of being to able to attend a graduation ceremony and thereby denigrating the administration? If I didn’t like their views then I can send them to another school or gather people and make a new school. Just like them but with mixed graduation ceremonies!
DQB
I did not mean to say all men are “lechers”. I just that such a thing has occurred. My fault for my lack of clarity.
Has it happened? Sure. Lots of things happen — but we don’t base public policy on a “it once happened” basis. If we were to do that, our lives would be so restricted that we would barely be able to do anything at all.
The Wolf
Let me wager a guess that bored men staring at even the most tznius of women has at least one time caused a bad thought etc. It’s pashut.
It’s far from pashut. You’re basically accusing all men of being disgusting lechers.
Eek! A Male!
Wolfish: Its a natural reaction for normal men. So it has to be acknowledged that it occurs and steps taken to reduce its potential. That’s all I believe DQB’s point is.
are mothers allowed at sons graduations????
what about siblings?
grandparents?
Tzniyus is actually getting out of control – and I don’t mean the way our girls dress. I mean the focus on Tzniyus.
I tend to agree with this. Women and girls think it is the most important thing in the torah.
It isn’t.
“Why do you think your shul doesn’t have women speakers?
Is it because they have nothing worth hearing? I doubt it. It is because it is not tznius”
I’m not argue with you. Just asking. What about Rebbetzin Jungreis?
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