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While we may all agree that eating crab cakes is bad, please tell me by what stretch of the imagine talking about eating crabcakes in any manner can be considered “murder.”
Obviously written by a member of PETA.
Zeeskite!! WOWOW!! Great contribution. Though as we have mentioned here numerous times, I think it’s time to STOP giving her so much attention. I think all the points were made. It’s time to close this thread and shut her out of our lives , as she has done to us.We can pray for her and all of Klal Yisroel who have unfortunately cast us aside, may they come back to their senses……
so ive decided that ill go to her talk but im not gonna ask to interview her. i can sympathize with her past, and hope that she gets over her issues in the future, but her name is toxic and im not gonna associate mine with hers at all. my reason for going is that i like understanding people and i believe there is what to be learned from everyone, whether its from what they say or what they dont say, butliekyea…not going to request an interview. im getting the impression that shes more than a little petulant and childish and theres nothing to be done about that. hopefully one day the glamour will wear off, the allure of all that can be will fade, and she’ll grow up. and thats not just about yahadus, thats about everything.
(I believe she meant “spite”, not literal murder.)
“Retzicha” means “spite?”
The Wolf
ZK, homerun!
Problem is, she is not even smart or normal enough to qualify as an “enemy of Hashem.” I understand that she probably got into Sarah Lawrence via the “back door,” and nowadays grading in college is meant so that everyone who starts basically finishes with a degree, even if it is worth the same as alef yud papier. She just wants to have a good time and to justify doing what she is doing while she makes a quick buck. No worse than Shmuley Boteach – and no one should care what he spits out either.
Anyone who asks whether what she writes is true can easily be told the truth, and if that person is sincere, that will be the end of the discussion. Whoever wants a reason to be an anti-Semite or a true anti-Semitic Jew (not self-hating because they don’t hate themselves, they hate US), will find one without this trashy so-called memoir.
ZK, I commend you for your obvious passion in your opinion on the matter, but I must say, since I’m one of the people here who have said “I understand her”, that it with a lack of familiarity that you have called us out on that. I said that I understand her because I easily could have turned out like her. I grew up in a very difficult situation, and truly needed support and help from my community and community leaders, and got none. The only real role model I had was my mom. Without her, it would not be a stretch to say that I would have turned out like this woman, and would have had a strong dislike for Judaism. Thankfully, my mother showed me by example how Judaism can be a beautiful religion, and that is what I’ve clung to. As for the other things you have said, I respect you greatly for your passion, but I can NEVER bring myself to hate her, and I won’t. If you do, that’s fine. But as I said in an earlier post, such hate and contempt for her is exactly what caused her to go off in the first place. We can’t know for sure, but it is possible that if even one Rav or respected community member showed her love, and showed her how one can love and be happy in Judaism, she may have been inspired. Calling her names and saying bad things about her, in my opinion, is the wrong way of dealing with this situation.
MiddlePath: sounds like what i wanted to say
A Woman outside bklyn: its on the 15th not the 13th (today) and if you want to reach me…just search google for Our Place NY WordPress and leave a comment…thats how everyone else contacts me
OK, wolf, DY, et al: I have nothing personal against crabcakes. They smell delicious, they look delicious, the might even BE delicious. But they are not kosher, so we can’t eat them.
That said, “retzicha” in the sense that I used it, CLEARLY refers to an expression said with hateful vehemence. Though the Hebrew word means murder, when used in the Yiddish context in which I used it, it correctly means (more or less) spitefully.
I hope that clears things up, so I can go back to marching with PETA…er…I am not a member of PETA, nor do I believe in the aspects of their philosophy that makes it a crime against humanity to wear animal fur (though to be honest I do not own any), nor test drugs on animals in the absence of ANY OTHER way to test the safety of those necessary drugs. I do believe we need to be makpid in the Torah mandated guarding against tzaar baalei chayim, but human safety still comes before animal rights.
soliek – I agree
Middlepath – So well put, so well said. (not surprised) Nothing like listening to what someone actually said before pushing back at it.
For all those who dont realize the far reaching negative effect of her book, I located an Anti-Semitic blog who uses her book as proof that the Zionists control the media!
He says how else would the world constantly be bashing the inferior treatment of women in the Arab world, if women in the Jewish world are treated no differently, and it rarely reaches the media? He gives examples of this inferior treatment taken from her book.
She doesnt realize how she has blood on her hands for the way she publicly bashes her former life. Does she care? The fact remains- when Anti-Semites come to power, she and her innocent son will be among those considered Jewish, whether she likes it or not, and will suffer equally. Her disgusting book wont save them or help her and her son. She and her son have Jewish blood and thats enough to make her despised.
Oomis,
I have nothing personal against crabcakes. They smell delicious, they look delicious, the might even BE delicious. But they are not kosher, so we can’t eat them.
Exactly how the Ramba”m says our attitude towards forbidden foods should be!
Thanks for the linguistics lesson. I had never actually seen the expression used as you did, but, as you say, it was clear what you meant (my line about those poor crabs was my attempt at humor).
MP.
Let me try once more.
I’m not condemning you c”v in any way. I’m just reiterating what David haMelech and seforim say. If one truly feels connected to HaShem, he’ll protest and ward off any attack to HaShem’s honor. At times like this we’re not interested in ‘winning’ her back. She has probably the din of “moridin vlo ma’alin”, like all meshumadim of the past. (The local talmudicians here can weigh on these issues). Point here is ????? ?’ ???? ??. Just as one who would hurt a close relative c”v, is not tolerated, not justified, reasoned etc. No – ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????. When it’s so close, our own blood boils. AND IT SHOULD.
All the more so when it’s the honor of HaKadosh Baruch Hu. He’s refered in Mishli as ??? ??? ????, your Friend, the Friend of your fathers. Deal with such an affront no less. One more point. Even if one truly doesn’t feel along these lines, let “the exterior awake the interior”, by expressing a hate for reshaim, ovrei retzono, and for what they stand for, one develops a closeness to HaShem.
?? ????? ??? ????, a time for love and a time for hate. Extend true love to someone less fortunate, one who has unfortunately not seen the light of Torah life… One who has not completely seen, and got somewhat disenchanted… Even one who has r”l rebelled… Yes, we’re interested in getting back EVERY Yiddishe Neshama. ??? ??? ???? ???.
But one who is ‘at war’, out to defame, shame, degrade HaShem, His Torah, His people – NO!! (and mind you, this is no small war – news-media, internet, blogs, publication..) Our connection to HaShem must make us scream out ?? ???!! For that Shmuel HaKatan invented a nineteenth brocho…
(my line about those poor crabs was my attempt at humor). “
Don’t worry – I GOT that the first time around 🙂
i usually dont pull this card…but until youve gone through what shes gone through you cant possibly understand what drives a person to that point. reserve your insults, your claims of mental illness, your claims of mental retardation, your certainty that she is chayav misah…all of it. save it. you could never understand what its like to have that kind of life.
you can thump on your bibles all you want, but she is still a jew, and she suffered. so please…just keep quiet.
Doson and Aviram were also Jews. Who knows what they went through to make them like that. None of us experianced their lives.
ZK: i agree with soliek, MP and others. You cannot judge her.
You are not expected to praise her, and you can criticise her actions. But you cannot you judge her.
Soliek, we have NO idea what she actually went through. Only what this farbissen woman has published all over the place. Someone filled with such venom, to write about Jewish life that from her perspective is miserable, is doing it to get revenge. The look on her face says it all. My cousin’s son also became disillusioned in his chassidic life, and became completely frei. But he did not rub everyone’s noses in it. And he does not do things tzu l’hach-iss.
I do not believe she is mentally retarded, but I do think she has some type of emotional disturbance, because of her need to defame every aspect of her former life, and her desire to “show us” how she will do whatever on earth she wants and defies us to stop her. That is just over the top, even for someone disgruntled. Your life stinks? So either get over it or move on. But don’t try to hurt everyone around you in the process.
Zeeskite: I truly admire your wisdom on this point….
I will add for soleik and many others who she has won over their pity: Only YOU truly know what you have been through and KOL HAKOVOD to you , for where you are holding today; With that said I will add, SHE HAS SAID MANY LIES IN HER TESTIMONIAL!! How do we know that everything else is true? How do we know she is not exaggerating about what happened to her? She has said outright lies about the Chassidish customs, many of them! Were you all aware of that or did you also fall for all her stories?
chocandpatience: pretty much
oomis1105: she is wrong, and i am the first to admit that she is wrong and that what she did is awful, but i havent written her off as a jew or a person because i know what drove her to it. you all know that im working on a book…and let me tell you it is taking a LOT of self control not to use it as a platform to air my grievances about our community–and i have many. but i know what it feels like to want to, i know where that feeling comes from, and i therefore cannot disparage her for wanting to do that. i can condemn it…and i do…but i havent given up on her as a person.
the world isnt split into good people and frei people.
a mamin: i have no reason to assume that anything in her book is a lie (read the excerpt on the S&S site). she may have spun certain things in an unfavorable way, but i have no reason to assume she lied about anything, least of all her family problems. what she describes actually fits the bill.
by the way, for those of you who are wondering why im so hung up on this, aside from the fact that i experienced something similar, its that your response is precisely what drives people off in the first place. she says in her book that when her cousin was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, her grandfather locked him in a room for 4 months rather than send him to a psychiatric facility. i believe that because i know its happened.
her mother was never addressed, and her father was written off for being mentally deficient. think about your communities and how they WOULD (not should) react to something like that. it destroys the perfect image that we have as a community and in our respective families when someone is diagnosed with a mental illness and everyone knows it. therefore, it is ignored.
not to mention sexual abuse…we all know THAT gets covered up very often, and mentioning it earns you the title of nuchem rosenberg. you mention the fact that domestic violence exists in the community and all you get are a bunch of people telling you to be quiet. if youre a victim, you get told that you either deserve it, or that you should just grin and bear it–that you are over-reacting.
and you wonder why someone would want to disparage the community, why someone would want to shame it to its core? because if thats what it takes then so be it. now thats not my personal opinion, and i dont think that she accomplishes that with this book and her publicity, but i know what it feels like to blame the entire community for your suffering and to want retribution. baruch hashem i got over my problems and am using other methods to further my agenda…but thats why i feel so strongly about this.
because to a certain extent…shes absolutely right.
To all apologists sympathizers etc.:
Let’s try a 5th time (3rd to be exact)
She SLAPPED me, MY HASHEM, I’m slapping back! There’s no rationalization here. That’s exactly the point.
WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ONE CARE TO DEFEND ANOTHER DEPRAVED CREATURE AGAINST HASHEM???? Are you Jewish???? You don’t seem to get the point.
Are you more connected to her than to HaShem Himself???
One other point: who told you to love a Jew? HaShem? Well in this instance HE is telling you not to. The mitzvah of Ahavas Yisroel is where HaShem says it’s applicable. (Would you LOVE a hitler?)
Again, please re-read my first piece. Second one too. This one you could skip.
“I do not believe she is mentally retarded, but I do think she has some type of emotional disturbance, because of her need to defame every aspect of her former life…”
Correct. Very similar to Gitty from KJ, who’s as good-looking and probably as sick as her biological dad while Mom is the craziest woman in KJ. The interviewer describes how she was sitting in his car Friday evening and they were watching fathers, grandfathers, and sons going to shul together. What an impression it must have made on him. The serenity, the kedusha, the regal beauty of the chassidishe levush, the love of fathers holding the hands of their little boys. So what did this neveila say to break the spell? “See those shtreimels? They cost $6000 a piece!” What a pathetic liar. The most expensive ones are $4000. I’ll bet she had a lump in her throat too which she was trying to get rid of.
Zeeskite: i try very hard never to pull godwins on people because the argument is usually invalidated, but in this case i think its appropriate.
after world war 2 many jews renounced their judaism and cursed hashem for what happened to their families. many spent the next X years of their lives espousing their hatred for hashem and judaism and how it ruined their lives. would you dare judge them? would you dare write them off? would you dare presume to claim that you have any authority in the matter? i sincerely hope not.
al tadin is fine when someone YOU know is involved, but not good enough when its someone you dont know? suppose she was your sister and you lived her life but turned out differently, would you judge her? i doubt it. youd believe that shes wrong, but would you be such a kanai “l’shem shamayim.”
but she IS your sister. shes a jew who suffered. she is no different than family.
if she had randomly published a book, for no reason at all, just published a book openly bashing and criticizing satmar after having a perfect life then i agree, she would be completely wrong, and would deserve all the flack shes getting over this. but she didnt have a perfect life–not even close–and therefore yes, she DOES deserve special consideration.
also consider this. suppose she had come over to you with her story a year ago, before it was published, dressed as she appears in that picture, munching on a crabcake; what would your response have been to her? is your problem that she published or is your problem that she feels the way she does? if your problem is that she published then you understand why she feels like she does, you just believe that its unfortunate. and the fact that she published makes her no less unfortunate.
this thread has gotten a bit off point so let me address the title directly. what effect does this memoir have on us? what effect should it have would be a better question. seeing a book like this and reacting with anger is the wrong response. what you should feel when you see a book like this happen is feel sadness. you should feel that the fact that such a book could happen is a tragedy. because behind the book is a person who suffered, and if we could have done something before it turned into the book and didnt…thats tragic.
Soleik: You really should stop comparing yourself to her, YOU ARE NOT ALIKE in any way! She does lie! She said things about intimacy in a chassidishe married life that ARE NOT TRUE!She lied there and can lie in other places as well!
oh i know im not her. i would never do what she did. but i DO understand why she did it and therefore i cannot judge her like everyone else seems so quick to do
Next Round.
Again.
{begin loop} And Again. {end loop}
Maybe she was my sister – she denies any connection.
But the One Above is MY HASHEM!!!!
Do you understand that??? Take some time. Let that sink in!! I’ll defend HaShem’s honor. PERIOD.
if whatever you tell yourself makes you happy, keep saying it.
Whether or not she’s angry at G-d, or at Judaism, or at the way she was raised, or at what was done to her;
nobody forced her to write a book about it, and nobody forced her to go on TV interviews about it.
Its defending Hashems honor when someone writes a book that you dont agree with
But when someone who “claims to be frum” does a crime many people are willing to overlook it and claim the media is out to get jews.
and you wonder why someone would want to disparage the community, why someone would want to shame it to its core?
To make a lousy buck!
ZeesKite: From what I’ve read, she NEVER attacked or insulted Hashem. She is against Satmar. That’s all. It was asked earlier, why didn’t she just become MO? Probably because Satmar look at MO as similar to non-Jews. They don’t consider MO as frum Jews. I know people who weren’t counted towards a minyan in KJ because they didn’t look frum enough.
Why would she become MO if she was told they’re as bad as non-Jews? Let her be completely unobservant and enjoy herself if she’s destined for the same end anyway!
ZK: “The mitzvah of Ahavas Yisroel is where HaShem says it’s applicable. (Would you LOVE a hitler?)”
That’s going much too far. There is no comparison between Hitler and this woman. Not qualitatively and not quantitatively.
So just where does the mitzva of Ahavas Yisroel apply? What are its parameters?
Zeeskite: The best way to defend Hashem’s honor is to ignore her and continue to live your life as a Torah-true Jew. Shouting about it rarely has a positive effect on people and will more likely lead people to believe that Frum Jews are actually as she claims them to be.
oomis1105: she is wrong, and i am the first to admit that she is wrong and that what she did is awful, but i havent written her off as a jew or a person because i know what drove her to it.”
Neither have we. But we condemn her actions, not the person.
you all know that im working on a book…and let me tell you it is taking a LOT of self control not to use it as a platform to air my grievances about our community–and i have many. but i know what it feels like to want to, i know where that feeling comes from, and i therefore cannot disparage her for wanting to do that. “
The difference, my dear, is that YOU haven’t done so, and she has. It is a crucial difference. I am sorry for whatever you have gone through, and I sincerely hope your life is on track and happier now, but you withstood the temptation to be motzi shem ra on ALL of Judaism, because of your personal struggle with whatever has challenged you. She, however, takes an obvious special pleasure from airing her dirty laundry, and THAT is what grigerehs our kishkes.
i can condemn it…and i do…but i havent given up on her as a person. “
I don’t think we gave up on her as much as she has defiantly given up on all of Judaism. And BOY, does she love sticking it to us publicly. Over and over again. And she is doing it to make money. If she truly were a decent person, she would not tar the really FINE people who are frum, with the same brush she uses on those whom she feels did her wrong.
ZeesKite: +1. Very well said. Yasher Koach.
chocandpatience: Now that is a valid question. I’m not in any a talmudician or local orthodox rabbi by any strech of imagination, but I think Ahavas Yisroel stops when one is a Mumar Lhachis. (and I know there’s no comparison – I just used it for argument’s sake)
Sam: sometimes we have to shout out – just for ourselves. To ingrain and implant into our conciseness the message. Of course not for her. We’re not interested in her. Not at this point.
One more point: She’s screaming, I’m screaming. She in her sewer system, me in this hallowed Yeshiva World. I did not write in her filth. Anyone defending her should not do it here.
Another Point: I have yet to see them defending the one who shot… abused… (spit, bleached) etc.:”he needs special consideration..”, “al tadin…”, “you don’t know what he went through..” All of a sudden when it comes to HaShem, everyone has justifications, reasons, quotes. It speaks volumes. Again, sorry, I’m for HaShem, my GOD. I’ve messed up in the past, made (many) mistakes, but He is MY GOD. I chose to side with HIM.
From what I saw of her interviews and writings nothing she said is untrue. Your average American (or any westerner) would agree with most of what she says (even “conservative” Americans).
HOWEVER that does not mean that there aren’t people that are happy living the lifestyle she found and most Americans would find so oppressive. For some it is the best way to live for others it isn’t.
The book is a memoir, so of course it will be colored by her opinions and outlook of its author. That is what a memoir does! It isn’t supposed to be a scientific study of Satmar or any other community.
I think that the reason why people are so defensive is because they themselves are too insecure to just admit that what she says is true but NEVERTHELESS they feel that the good in the community outweighs the bad. As a general rule it doesn’t offend people who are secure in their beliefs when someone disagrees with them.
well said
zeeskite: your zeal is noted, we get the point. per past doesnt excuse it, it explains it. it explains why she did it…not because she woke up one day and had something against satmar…but because her life was very difficult.
somebody, or several somebodies, said that shes doing it for the money. you dont understand why writers write. when i showed my Ami article to my grandmother she told me that i did it to get paid. she also said that every writer who writes for every magazine does it for the money. its true…i was paid for my article…but ididnt do it for the money. the other writers in ami dont do it for the money. Devorah Feldman didnt do it for the money.
you have no idea what goes into writing a book; the emotional stress in reliving your life in a very short span of time, the nitpicking over every draft, losing sleep over word usage, placement, and tone, fighting the urge to throw your work in the trash. this isnt about her specifically, this is about every writer to have ever written. people dismiss what we do because they dont understand it and because words are so readily available to the general public, but why dont you try writing a book. its not easy; not in craft, and not emotionally.
it just really annoys me when people dismiss writers as gold diggers. that only applies when a book is ghost written, and even then only in certain cases.
oomis: yeah i know im not her, and i would never do what she did, i just know where shes coming from. i know her nisayon.
Check out her interview on The View today, on YouTube, at
“The View, Rejection of Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn. Deborah Feldman Book”
Parts of it upset me very much.
Regarding a picture of her being led to her Chupah, with the veil over her face; she was told:
“You look stunning. Where are you?” (Audience laughter)
Regarding her talking publicly about her intimate life with her husband, and about Taharas HaMishpacha, as she was asked to talk about “the sexual customs which are so different,” and her talking about how menstruating women are “impure,” and about the Bedikos and the Mikvah;
she had absolutely no business discussing this in front of Frei Jews and non-Jews, who have no idea what genuine Judaism is about.
After she discussed how she saw the Barbara Walters Gallery in Sarah Lawrence College and how she found out who Barbara Walters is, she was told:
“Did you think that Barbara Walters was from another Chassidic tribe?” (Audience laughter)
Unfortunately, she was raised in a dysfunctional home, with a distorted view of Judaism. However, whatever sympathy I may have had for what happened to her, has been completely erased by this Chillul Hashem, at which I cringed.
She made Judaism and all Jews into a laughing stock. This public display was completely uncalled for. No one forced her to do it. She did it for the money.
00646
“From what I saw of her interviews and writings nothing she said is untrue. Your average American (or any westerner) would agree with most of what she says (even “conservative” Americans).”
Either you’ve been reading different interviews than I did, or you have ridiculous misconceptions about the chassidishe community.
“I think that the reason why people are so defensive is because they themselves are too insecure to just admit that what she says is true…”
Wow. You saw right through me.
“As a general rule it doesn’t offend people who are secure in their beliefs when someone disagrees with them.”
We’re not discussing a difference in beliefs. She lied about the facts.
Mytake,
You said “Either you’ve been reading different interviews than I did, or you have ridiculous misconceptions about the chassidishe community.”
Would you mind telling me something she said that is factually inaccurate about the Chasidishe community?
JaneDoe18: I knew it was in the coming – ?????? ??? ???.
May she tear out any (newly exposed) hair she has, in grief, trying to recall, rescind this most massive chilul HaShem of such a gigantic proportion. ???? ?? ???? ?? – alas, our hands are tied.
Let us counter this massive affront to HaShem’s honor, with increased dedication to the performance of His Mitzvohs, His Torah.
JaneDoe18: which is why i specifically never mentioned the fact that it was only satmar she bashed. much in the same way that im sympathetic toward her because a jew is a jew, i must condemn what she wrote because a jew is a jew. doesnt matter if the book is about satmar and were not satmar, they are jews and so are we and therefore we should all be offended whether or not it pertains to our specific sect
Mytake, Woman outside brooklyn Etc.,
Would one of you guys PLEASE point out some of the things she said about the community that they feel are factually inaccurate?
Would one of you guys PLEASE point out some of the things she said about the community that they feel are factually inaccurate?
She claimed there was some sort of murder cover-up
zahavasdad
Member – If you are Zeena.kasta’s husband, would you please come by and do my garden, way too many weeds and I heard you do a nice job…. could you please give me a quote??
thanks
have a nice day sir, cheers.
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