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the book ISNT out yet, but so far every interview shes given has a decidedly biased slant against judaism.
Shraga18: Popa is one of the bigger trolls here, and lately I’ve been just ignoring his posts.
Wow. I expected that you were embarrassed to say you couldn’t answer it, but that you were starting to hear the other side, and that is why I didn’t post again asking for a response.
So you think my question is so absurd that it would lower you to even answer it. Is that what you are telling yourself.
And they call me closed minded.
She doesnt have a Irish Boyfriend, She isnt dating anyone. If you read closely, she said she met an Irish Catholic from New Orleans that understood her, but his life was in New Orleans and hers was here. She is not dating him.
Eating a crabcake does not make you a Shiksa
Go on line and see all her bashing….nebach!!
Feif Un-
popa_bar_abba-
Where I work, people often come to me with questions about history, sports, miscellaneous trivia, politics, and opinions as well as work related technical questions and do-it-yourself advice.
soliek -“health…dont you get it…the whole book is one big self justification”
No, I get it, but you didn’t get my point –
They all justify why they went OTD.
It’s one thing to go OTD and it’s another to try and use your particular story to bash all Frum Jews! Just because she’s doing it for her 5 minutes of fame & fortune – doesn’t justify this added behavior. She’s much, much worse than your avg. guy/gal who goes off!
ICOT- The difference is that your coworker may actually respect you for your beliefs, and have a more positive view of Jews.
This book, however, has the opposite effect.
ICOT: Yes, Judaism (even MO) may appear backwards to the rest of the world. However, as was stated before, the difference between, say, MO and Satmar is that we don’t try to force things on people. The stories of women harassed for sitting in the front of a bus were documented. If someone wants to live life following Satmar standards, fine, go ahead. It doesn’t bother me. But don’t expect my wife to dress to your standards, with 3 different layers buttoned up to her chin, bullet-proof tights with seams every inch, with a shaved head and a shpitzel, while walking down a public street. You have no right to make others dress that way on a public street.
YT, +1. No idea what soliek wanted from your life. BTW, how are you? I have you in my tefilos every day.
Feif, as stated before, you either force your women to keep Taharas Hamishpacha under pain of divorce, or you’re not Orthodox.
health: there are many things that i understand but dont justify…my point is that before you dismiss something make sure you understand it
msseeker: I don’t force my wife to keep it. I also don’t force her to stay married to me. If she didn’t want to keep it, I wouldn’t have married her. If she wants to stop keeping it, I wouldn’t force her to do anything. I wouldn’t stay married to her, but she can do whatever she wants to do.
You say “under pain of divorce” like it’s the same as the harassment some people get in chassidic areas. They’re completely different.
feif un:
If someone wants to live life following Satmar standards, fine, go ahead. It doesn’t bother me. But don’t expect my wife to dress to your standards, with 3 different layers buttoned up to her chin, bullet-proof tights with seams every inch, with a shaved head and a shpitzel, while walking down a public street. You have no right to make others dress that way on a public street.
There are three problems that I have with this comment:
1. The idiom “live and let live” is not a Jewish concept. We have hisarvus to each other, the mitzvah of tochacha that precludes the ability of a Jew to act on this maxim. Whether you agree or disagree with whether you need to improve you tzniyus standard, I’m not sure that any Jew should maintain this principle.
2. The language that you use when describing a Satmar woman’s dress, suggests to me that, as much as you don’t appreciate being degraded by implication that you (or your wife) are not tzniyus, you have no such ambivalence when it comes to degrading their mode of dress (ie. bullet-proof tights).
3. I have often heard this word being touted as the end-all for arguments but I have difficulty understanding how “having a right” to do something implies that you are doing the “right thing” by exercising it. Although they are the same word in English, they do not mean the same thing. If I see a Jew doing something wrong in public I think I am obligated to correct him. You may disagree with how someone undertakes that obligation and even if this obligation is present in a given case. But I’m not sure you can say that a person acting under this obligation is doing the objectively wrong thing.
I understand why you may have singled-out Satmar as I’ve experienced some odd comments from some Satmar chassidim myself. But I think it is just an annoying side effect of something essentially positive.
msseeker…you should read;
“The Garden of Peace: A Marital Guide for Men Only”
“She is not dating him…Eating a crabcake, ect..”
Has / will.. You’re splitting hairs, ZD, and you know it. The outfit she chose for her interview tells you who she’s courting.
Eating traif may not make someone a shiksa. But doing so, and being proud of it, sure tells you where they are holding.
(but I loved the line, ” I keep a kosher home”, and keep shabbos when my son is around”)
Yeah, she really has this Judaism thing under control.
Feif: You don’t force your wife to go to the ritual bath every month and always cover above her knees in public? If she told you she is no longer willing to do those things you’ll be fine with her decision? Satmar doesn’t force women either.
The interview itself was severely flawed. There were issues with both the interviewer and the interviewee.
Here are my observations:
Interviewer Issues:
There are different interviewing styles:
Interviewee Issues:
Every single statement she makes in the article puts Chasidim and frum people in the worst possible light. Some are true but distorted, some are exaggerated, and some are untrue. Every opinion expressed is negative (so disgusting! so awful!)
yungerman1-
I hope so – thank you.
Unfortunately, being mekarev even one person is so difficult – I have all the respect in the world for kiruv workers and those who they are mekarev.
greatest: No, I wouldn’t be fine with it, but I wouldn’t harass her over it. I’d probably just divorce her and leave it at that. Luckily for me, she doesn’t plan on giving those things up.
We pray for this woman three times a day in Vlamalshinim.
ICOT you said Live and Let live is not a jewish concept
So if you see a jew doing wrong, you are supposed to give chizuk
This woman feels that Satmar is doing wrong and she is giving chizuk to the Satmar communinty.
When Satmars have Tzniut signs in Kiryat Joel and Williamsburg they are giving Chizuk to those who did not ask and might now want.
Whether you agree with her chizuk or not is not the point. People here seem to be freely in giving chizuk to things they feel are wrong (even if they arent)
MODS any reason you didn’t allow my last two posts?
That is a very shrewd and discerning post by shraga18
Having read her excerpts last month, watched her video and read up on Gitty in KJ I may be mushing up my facts so forgive me. I also think I am going to be tangenting a bit but I tend to do that.
I thought about some of the ‘legitamate’ complaints that those women have and their camments about them. And I understand fief saying that OTD people say those things all the time, but what struck me was that if I ever decided to leave, ch’v, because I got sick of the rules or of having such personal things regimented, I don’t think I would have the same thing to say about those rules. I notice that their attitude toward many of these halachos or chumros or even minhagim were without feeling for them or understanding of the spiritual significance and benefit. Yes I have to hold in my zmiros when we have guests, but it isn’t becuase I “cant even sing in front of them lest they enjoy it”, the fact is I have a lousy voice, but the Torah considers it beautiful and worth guarding because it is a female voice. I can sing before my husband because we are one being.
And when we walk around in the summer heat I don’t “have to keep my arms covered no matter how hot it is” I retain my level of tznius because women’s bodies are sacred, even in the summer.
You may not agree with those opinions, but my point is that I have laerned to see the beauty and benefit of this way of life, and I have, like Yehuda Tzvi, chosen a Torah life, not a community, so my friends vary in hashkafa. I was raised MO (maybe, not really sure what that means) and now I’m not. But that was my choice and I feel very strong about it. And I sense none of that from those two writers. I don’t get a sense of any attachment of worth to Hashems Torah either, not just the community. I too wish they would have just chosen a less restrictive life within Torah, but perhaps that missing piece is key to what we need to keep our kids ON.
This woman feels that Satmar is doing wrong and she is giving chizuk to the Satmar communinty.
Do you know what chizuk means?
The Great Bear of Creedmor; All the posters made some great points, but you summed it up best by pointing out the fact that those stories that weren’t complete fabrications or hallucinations, were greatly exaggerated by this obviously confused girl. I happen to know the family, and as such, I know that the portrayal of her father’s mental incapacity as the primary cause for leaving the religious life is greatly exaggerated. The primary cause of her family’s dysfunction came from the fact that her mother was unable to provide the basic elements of a stable home life. On the other hand, she received a great amount of love and understanding from her grandparents and other members of the family.
To sum up. She looked much more presentable in the picture of her previous (and possibly future) life; She got her 15 Minutes of fame; After the thrill is gone, she’ll find an empty life, with no friends to turn to or the support of a family; She is obviously in desperate need of Psychological counseling and grooming.
soliek -“health: there are many things that i understand but dont justify…my point is that before you dismiss something make sure you understand it”
Are you talking to her or to me? Something I don’t understand or something she doesn’t understand?
to you. before you get all fire and brimstone, understand the problem. understand where it came from, and why she is the way she is. THEN judge it. i strongly disapprove of what she did and what shes done (take a quick look at her twitter and facebook accounts) and what shes doing and youll find plenty to disapprove of, but its still important to understand why.
Soliek – That’s your mistake -I don’t have to know why. E/o who goes OTD has some reason or another. If s/o in person is telling you their story it might be polite not to interrupt, but you don’t need to know why. Their own particular reason doesn’t change anything. Whatever they believe is false and the Torah is true. Even if you’re trying to Mekarev s/o you can never tell them that their Hashkofos are right. You can empathize with their story, but you can’t say their way of thinking is another possible choice in life. There is only one Truth! Period -End of story!
Yes, Judaism (even MO) may appear backwards to the rest of the world. However, as was stated before, the difference between, say, MO and Satmar is that we don’t try to force things on people. The stories of women harassed for sitting in the front of a bus were documented. If someone wants to live life following Satmar standards, fine, go ahead. It doesn’t bother me. But don’t expect my wife to dress to your standards, with 3 different layers buttoned up to her chin, bullet-proof tights with seams every inch, with a shaved head and a shpitzel, while walking down a public street. You have no right to make others dress that way on a public street.
Even though you refuse to answer people who would show you why you are wrong, I refuse to stop posting just because you won’t respond.
You are confusing issues.
This thread is not about forcing people from outside the community to dress to their standards while visiting, or to comply with their bus standards.
This thread is about whether the internal standards they have are somehow illegitimate. That was the point you were making before; that you think the tznius standards they have do not respect women.
You can certainly change the topic and discuss the issue of forcing people outside the community to comply, but you should not conflate the issues. So, as for your issue:
1. Harassing women in a normal mixed neighborhood is unacceptable, and I have heard nobody normal defend it. As is harassing women on a regular bus.
2. Harassing women who deliberately board a mehadrin bus in order to be a rosa parks hero and make a feminist statement, is a mitzva, and those women should be spit on. If you want to make a feminist statement, go get an abortion. (Greatest line ever, thank you, thank you.) (And don’t argue about the women’s motives, this is the case I made up.)
3. Harassing women who accidentally board a mehadrin bus, or do so out of inconvenience, and there are not seats in back, or they are too hard to get to, is unacceptable. They should not be harassed, and anyone who harasses them is a rasha, and should be spit on.
4. Harassing women who visit their neighborhoods and don’t dress to their standards, seems a bit odd to me. I think someone (a woman) should gently go over to them and inform them of the standards (if the neighborhood really is that homogeneous, like maybe New Square or kiryas yoel). (I don’t care if you have a right to go. I don’t believe in rights–that is americanishe stupidity. And if we are talking about rights, they have a right to harass you–first amendment buddy.)
You know, there have been plenty of times I have admitted being wrong on this website, after making a point. You should think about it sometime. Being open minded and everything–it’s a very americanishe value.
Greatest line ever, thank you, thank you.
It really is!
Y’know, I ignored this thread for a while. The topic is just too boring for me and the opinions are preset and predictable. However, I saw your name and figured it would be worth checking it out. And it was. Thanks.
Popa, you have the ability to be so level-headed and insanely wild in the same breath.
2. Harassing women who deliberately board a mehadrin bus in order to be a rosa parks hero and make a feminist statement, is a mitzva, and those women should be spit on.
—
I completely disagree. We should never, ever sink to the level of someone like that. Had the men involved handled the situations properly, both women would have been exposed by the press, and that would be it. The haredi ministers in the government would have put pressure on the army to severely discipline the soldier, once it came out that she had posted her plans on Facebook, and the other character had ties to an official organization as well. The two “MO” women who deliberately boarded buses in RBS a couple of years ago are known meshiggenes – one has been convicted of plagiarism (and got away with another instance of it only because her victim passed away and the heirs had no desire to pursue matters) and the other one is stam a loser who fled debts in the US after trying some grocery scam and blaming her losses on Rubashkin once everyone else was after Rubashkin to begin with. All four of the yachnes could have ended up sentenced to a few weeks of peeling potatoes for a haredi soup kitchen had the men behaved like bnei Torah and not like self-appointed kanoim.
Instead, “yadayim ydei Esav,” and the men acted like pere odom. We are held to higher standards, and we paid the penalty of ridicule in the press and increased retaliation as a result.
health: again…maybe i have to say it until it sinks in…i disagree and disapprove with what she believes and does, but i understand why she does it. i didnt say i justify it, i didnt say i condone it, i said i understand it. get off your soap box.
where you see a rasha who is the scum of the earth, i see someone with a hard life who is making a mistake. where you see someone who should, perhaps, be stoned, i see someone who should be invited for a shabbos. where you see a vindictive with, i see a victim. yep…a victim. we all know how sexual abuse and mental illness are treated in our community, and i have no doubt that she suffered everything i suffered and more.
again…what she did was wrong, nevertheless it is important to understand in order to, at the very least, prevent it from happening again.
(I don’t care if you have a right to go. I don’t believe in rights–that is americanishe stupidity. And if we are talking about rights, they have a right to harass you–first amendment buddy.)
Actually there is no first amendment rights to harass anyone. Harassment is NOT a right. Ask any lawyer
Kiryat Joel has a first amendment right to put up a tzniut sign and people even right that right to put one up in Williamsburg as long as its not on public property (like a Stop sign) or a Tree (It damages the trees so no signs are allowed)
People mistake what the first amendment rights are.
I read this woman’s article in the NY POST. She is hate-filled and hateful. If you look at her photographs, she is smirking and smug in almost everyone of the ones that are calculated to “SHOW THEM!”
I am not a Satmar, I am not chassidish in hashkafa or even yeshivish in the sense that most people understand the expression. But To show such disrespect by publicly airing your own personal hashkafic dirty laundry, is unacceptable. She is doing it to make a buck now, not because she wants to enlighten anyone about her former “plight.” And do Satmar chassidim really believe that a 19 year old girl is on the late side of marriageable?
The retzicha with which she talks about b’davka eating crabcakes, shows a very skewed person. I know people who have gone oTD, but they are still respectful of MY frumkeit. I ahve a feeling she would be this kind of personality no matter WHAT her background would have been. There are plenty of people who stop living their chassidic lifestyle, but remain shomrei Torah uM’itzvos nonetheless. She is just a bitter woman who wants to “stick it” to all Jews.
Thank you, Halevi. That’s about the best compliment I’ve gotten on YWN.
(Well, maybe when squeak said I was funnier than him. But I’m not convinced of that one.)
Feif Un:
“Shraga18: Popa is one of the bigger trolls here, and lately I’ve been just ignoring his posts.”
That feels like a copout. I am not a CR regular, but I think the vast majority of posters on this thread, even those that disagree with Poppa, would agree that his posts in this thread are well thought out and well argued. As such, nor responding to them makes it look like you don’t have an answer (which you may indeed not have).
People also mistake what harassment is.
PBA +1 again. Thanks for saving me time.
Haleivi, I couldn’t have said it better.
People have a first amendment right to tell someone something, or even to yell. Constitutionally protected speech. You can see protesters and counter-protesters almost face-to-face, with police in between, yelling obscene comments at each other with no one getting arrested for verbal harassment.
the less attention we all give her, the less attention she will get in the press. if we all pay so much attention the publicity will go up as well. let her have her book and not keep commenting on it and giving more attention to it.
soliek -“health: again…maybe i have to say it until it sinks in…i disagree and disapprove with what she believes and does, but i understand why she does it. i didnt say i justify it, i didnt say i condone it, i said i understand it. get off your soap box.”
Soliek again -Who says I don’t understand why they are doing it? Maybe You should get off your soap box? Stop lecturing e/o.
“where you see a rasha who is the scum of the earth, i see someone with a hard life who is making a mistake. where you see someone who should, perhaps, be stoned, i see someone who should be invited for a shabbos. where you see a vindictive with, i see a victim. yep…a victim. we all know how sexual abuse and mental illness are treated in our community, and i have no doubt that she suffered everything i suffered and more.”
Now you are a mind reader. You’re dictating how I think? Who says I don’t feel sorry for these people? The fact that she is using her particular tragedy for a few minutes of fame & fortune is what makes her worse than e/o else who goes OTD!
“again…what she did was wrong, nevertheless it is important to understand in order to, at the very least, prevent it from happening again.”
You are living in Utopia, not in the real world. Until Moshiach comes there will be plenty of things wrong with the Frum community. We can’t even come to agreement how to deal with molesters amonst us. We have big problems and most of them are swept under the carpet. Are the Gedolim doing enough? Not IMHO.
But is the avg. guy able to change them? No. Is the avg. guy able to change Rosh Hayeshivos who protect bad people? No.
So you trying to perfect the Frum community is not realistic. If we would replace all our Gedolim with new ones -who said they would be any better? The facts are -there is a lot of Chessronos, but no realistic change will come about until Moshiach comes. Because of these Chessronos there will be many people unfortunately going OTD and there is very little anybody can do to stop this. While speaking about it publically on YWN and other places is a good start -it is only a drop in the bucket. I don’t feel this generation is capable of complete change. The main problem is most people are in Denial and this isn’t going to change anytime soon. There are things that I’ve seen in the Frum community much worse than child molestation and when brought up to the powers that be – I was ridiculed and they continue to remain in Denial. So be it -I’m not going to change the world and neither are you! We can only Daven that this Golus is over very quickly!
oomis: “I ahve a feeling she would be this kind of personality no matter WHAT her background would have been.”
I disagree. With a solid home and good chinuch, she’d turn out just fine, like the overwhelming majority of chassidish kids of good families, though perhaps with a superficial understanding of Yiddishkeit.
Great post, otherwise.
The Great Bear of Creedmoor:If PBA meant it literally, you’re right.
health: you underestimate the power of a popular idea
Msseeker, thank you, however I know some very lovely chassidish people who brought up their kids in a heimish and loving environment, and five kids stayed frum and one went completely frei. They were brought up in the same home, same parents, attended the same Yeshivas. It happens, nebbich, that sometimes someone goes off the derech in spite of our best efforts. I still believe this young woman would have ended up this way no matter what, because something is missing in her spiritually. Who knows if she is even describing her former home life accurately? She had so many inaccuracies in the article, I would not be surprised if a lot more was a sham. In any case, it is very sad that she chose to hold chassidish families up to such ridicule.
Interestingly enough, for those who actually watch TV, Oprah Winfrey has a 2 part special on tonight and tomorrow night on the OWN network on cable, about her very positive and beautiful experience with a chassidic family, with whom she spent some time. I find the timing and juxtaposition of this tv special and the Post article to be very much a case of hashgocha protis.
Rooshe is not the word. Nebach a choila is more like it, or meniveles if you want to be more strict. She is being used by all of these bashers; they gave her the incorrect info, which clearly came straight out of Haaretz’s supposed expose on Gur that ran at the same time.
Only a professional counselor can help her. I am too realistic to believe that we can proactively save every OTD neshume out there. This is one we need to let slip until she is ready to return with her tail between her legs, bereft of her 15 minutes of fame and saddled with a drug habit, a kid from some lowlife shygetz (Jewish or otherwise – bai inz der hyliger Ingarischer kanoim a yid ken ochet tzi zan a shygets/saygec) a bunch of piercings and a wardrobe full of cheap pritze dresses that she finally realizes are not who she is.
The retzicha with which she talks about b’davka eating crabcakes
While we may all agree that eating crab cakes is bad, please tell me by what stretch of the imagine talking about eating crabcakes in any manner can be considered “murder.”
The Wolf
I too was weighing my options/responsibilities regarding this issue for a couple of days. I decided to act.
We learned by the story of ???? ?????, HaShem had a ????, He rebuked the Yidden in that generation, (if I remember the quote correctly) ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????, when they were inactive by ??? ???? but got aroused for the pilegesh. How many times do we hear of abusers etc. and instantly get aroused, incensed, livid with righteous zeal, but remain calm and complacent in face of this most greatest chilul HaShem of the first degree. Some are even ‘understanding’!?!
??? ?????? ?’ ???? ????????? ??????. ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??. Sorry, an enemy of HaShem (such a rabid filthy one), is my enemy too. She’s Public Enemy #1, to anyone who truly loves HaShem. There nothing to talk about. Nothing to ‘understand’ about. She’s all-out against HaShem and His chosen people, anyone who is truly for HaShem must hate her ????? ????.
Her animalistic, debased urges and impulses, normally suppressed, subdued in ANY civil decent human being, is so openly exposed, exploited, reviled by her most filthy sewer system. SUCH DISGUST How many years did it take for her to wipe off any visage, residue of shamefulness that a NORMAL human is born with?
We learned there’s an opening by the (?), if one wants to leave, ?????? ??, let him go. (He’ll find his own way back through the small door) This one, however, crossed a boundary. She left and spat back. That’s a point of no return.
Can’t even write shame on you. She has no shame!
The retzicha with which she talks about b’davka eating crabcakes
While we may all agree that eating crab cakes is bad, please tell me by what stretch of the imagine talking about eating crabcakes in any manner can be considered “murder.”
The Wolf
I guess, Wolf, that you’re not too sympathetic to those poor crabs.
(I believe she meant “spite”, not literal murder.)
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