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Popa: the point is, there comes a time when you have to put your foot down on ‘well meaning’ chumros. There are women walking around in burkas now. I live in rockland and have seen a few recently. Is that too far? Why? Its all for the sake of tznius. Who is to say what is a legit chumra and what isn’t? The rabbonim need to step up and stop being afraid to say ‘ad kahn’. Its easy to make chumors, it takes guts to give a heter or shoot down a chumrah because nobody wants to be out’frummed.
If its true that you don’t control subtitle then I apologize, but I have a sneaky feeling its not true.
“Most OTD who make a big deal out of it are baalei gayva vetayva “
Is it just me, but in the more recent pictures, like in the blue party dress, she looks like she got heavier. I think that is why she looks bad in it. Revealing clothes don’t look so good on out-of-shape people.
I get the feeling that as time goes on, she might get a number of socially transmitted diseases, if she hasn’t already.
i dont know if im going…id like to though
yissochor dov:
1. Ok, so you are making a new argument now. Now you are saying that you personally feel certain chumros are excessive. You may be correct, and that is a fine opinion to have. I also think some chumros are excessive. But I still respect the people, and think they mean well. (One of these days I’ll go on an anti-chumrah ranting, and say what my rosh yeshiva used to say about chumros.)
2. As it happens, the burkas have been condemned by many chareidi rabbonim. We all think the burka people are crazy. And it is not relevant at all to this discussion. Don’t expect shmarya to post about that anytime soon, though.
Msseeker
to say every OTD is “DUMB” and a blue collar worker does a diservice to your entire argument.
First all of all, she has a college degree, whatever you think of college, it is not THAT easy to get a degree. You have to be smart to get one and earn it.
In fact many FRUM people are forced to be Blue collar workers because they are uneducated in the frum world. many can barely speak english. many are barely literate in english.
If you’d like to invite her, she has an email published on her web site.
zdad:
“to say every OTD is “DUMB” and a blue collar worker does a diservice to your entire argument.”
I SAID MOSTLY!!! (can you hear me now?)
“First all of all, she has a college degree…”
I’m not impressed. You can get a dime a dozen of those brain-dead zombies in OWS. Frum men who stay frum somehow learn satisfactory English, and many of them are exteremly successful. The running insider joke is, “I learned it in Satmar college.”
“I SAID MOSTLY!!! (can you hear me now?)”
what is wrong with you?
Frum men who stay frum somehow learn satisfactory English, and many of them are exteremly successful. The running insider joke is, “I learned it in Satmar college.”
Satmer specificly to the exclusion of many (I SAID MANY! 🙂 Chassidus’ value work and have a strong work ethic (for those who go out to work, they go all out). That helps them to succeed more than any “english” or College skills could.
BS”D
what is wrong with you?
Nothing. I saw the same thing as well (Zdad said every, MS said mostly). Let’s be fair.
MS to a certain extent (maybe even subconsciously) takes this personally, as the author rejected MS’s position in life (a Satmer/Chassidish Housefrau) to be “free”. To a certain extent she is justifying why the author is different, and why MS made the correct choice.
To MS: There is no need to justify your choice. The Torah and Hashem is your justification.
“First all of all, she has a college degree…”
I’m not impressed.
You shouldn’t be. I have two degrees and I’m the stupidest person on the face of the planet.
That being said, having a degree != smart. Likewise, not having a degree != stupid. But, that being said, with certain exceptions, the fact that a person earns a degree does indicate some degree of brain power.
The Wolf
GAW: I think you’ll find that you are not correct about that. I have found that almost all chassidim in America favor working, and are comfortable with blue collar work also. Not only satmar.
In america, lifetime learning is very much a litvish thing. In Israel, it is also among chassidim. The difference is probably the influence of the continuation of the old yishuv which was the establishment when the survivors arrived, as well as the problem that you can’t work without going to the army, and the army tries to shmad us. (And let’s not argue about the army shmading us again- we’ll just accept that they think it does.)
You shouldn’t be. I have two degrees and I’m the stupidest person on the face of the planet.
If you are stupid, it probably makes there be less of a taina on you for your aveiros. Oh well, maybe you aren’t the worlds biggest rasha–just among the biggest.
If you are stupid,
Oh, that condition certainly evaluates to “true.”
it probably makes there be less of a taina on you for your aveiros.
No, it doesn’t. I’m stupid, but not mentally incompetent. In no way am I a halachic “shoteh” that I should be exempt from the mitzvos.
Oh well, maybe you aren’t the worlds biggest rasha–just among the biggest.
I never stated that I was the “worlds [sic] biggest rasha.” I simply asserted that I am, according to various shittos, in violation of some of our most basic, cherished principles.
The Wolf
GAW: I think you’ll find that you are not correct about that. I have found that almost all chassidim in America favor working, and are comfortable with blue collar work also. Not only satmar.
I believe you are correct. Thank you. I wanted the line more than thinking about the distinction 🙂
I said MANY not every
Frankly I dont know any Satmar anymore (I used to work for Satmars a while ago) , I know Yeshivish people and in their schools they consider secular studies a joke. I asked my nephew about his secular studies and he told me, they have 1/2 hour of Physics every other week and its optional
zdad- you said “In fact many FRUM people are forced to be Blue collar workers because they are uneducated in the frum world. many can barely speak english. many are barely literate in english.”
Now, I’m not the biggest fan of irony, nor do I always find it funny, but you just hit a grand slam.
If you want to see examples of frum men who remain frum, and have no secular education, somehow learning proper English and a lot more, speak to any Chabad shluchim who are originally from Brooklyn and have been on shlichus for a couple of years. Oholei Torah has zero secular studies – it makes the Satmar system look like Choate or Philips Exeter – and somehow graduates from there manage to learn English, computers and a lot more on their own once they need to gain skills to get ahead in their shlichus or even regular careers.
I have an Ivy League degree and I did not learn ONE thing I use in my real life at college. If I could have done it all again, I would have used those four years for learning Torah.
Anyone can now catch up on missed secular learning online. That means that only those who really observe Internet bans and library bans will be left in the dark.
Without giving out my identity , I will tell you in my field, it is proven that a degree does NOT guarentee anyone a job today. I was at a real estate closing once where the buyer is one of the richest men in New York and came in with a calculator. He told the lawyers this was his college. He does not speak a proper English and never went to college.He can only sign his name.I think it’s all about mazel.
P.S. I always told my sons to take their English studies seriously, though they didn’t listen, they are working and making a living Baruch Hashem!Back to the subject at hand, having a college degree does NOT make someone street smart so after listening to Deborah on her clips and reading her article, I can vouch for all the readers who question her level of intelligence.
College degrees are not only about education, Many white collar jobs will not hire you or at least give you a chance without a college degree.
Its no gurantee to riches, but it does increase the possibility of making a decent living
White collar jobs generally pay more than blue collar jobs
FYI there are plenty of frum people with college degrees.
“Orthodox Paradox” by a certain Noah Feldman,”
I read this a while back, and re-read it now. The common thread I see between Noah and Devorah is they both crossed the line that Jews can’t cross. Once you marry <or otherwise, but can’t print that here> outside the faith, you are out of the club until you renounce that union.
The other common thread the two have, is they think they are right and we are wrong.
But as 600kb mentioned on another thread, Ms. Dropout will have her 15 minutes in the spotlight, and then be as forgotten as all the other dropouts.
Too bad she’s going to get her heart broken in the process. I know several dropouts like her (both male and female). They never find a place in the outside world. The stigma of “traitor” follows them wherever they go, and eventualy, they settle for a life far worse than they had when they were on the inside.
What a shame. And only in her 20s. Poor girl has no idea what’s in store for her 5 years (or so) from now.
I will tell you in my field, it is proven that a degree does NOT guarentee anyone a job today.
In no field does a degree guarantee anyone a job.
The Wolf
Msseeker, I’m curious as what your source is for “most Ltd etc.” And that they are dumb
Rapidly advancing technology will make traditional degrees useless in all but a few fields. It is those who keep up learning and acquire new skill sets on their own, both by learning and by doing, who will succeed in the new economy.
Watch this space (or more probably the YWN headlines as I will be gone from here Shushan Peerim :)). I happen to be working on something that will provide both training and work online so I will turn my own prediction into reality. I have not decided whether I will roll out a separate platform for the frum community but I do have it set up that way at present.
Regardless of whether I have a separate section for frum clients and workers, there will be plenty of ways for those who “missed out” on learning something in school to catch up through online instruction. Then, you take tests that qualify you to do various legitimate jobs that we line up in writing, design, programming, marketing and much else, so you get right to work at whatever hours suit you. Most work will be done that way in the future; this already exists for some types of remote work but I am bringing it to a new level with training and a more streamlined process.
ETA Pesach Sheini 5772.
Now, back to hachonos lePeerim – and frankly, this memoir is one bad Peerimshpiel – an exaggeration of what goes on in certain communities that in the end will subject its author to nothing but ridicule.
The point here is that whether you want to admit it or not (and this is were, I think the M.0. have the most difficulty)our way of thinking and our Value and Morality system is not a western one.
In fact it is in many way opposed to western values and Morality.
This however does not make our Value system wrong or something to be ashamed of.
American’s in general tries to mix our way of thinking with a western way of thinking and it does not work, and it rubs off on us.
For example ‘conservative” Americans send their children to Co-Ed high schools and colleges, they and their Children go to beaches were there are girls wearing as little as possible.
Then to make themselves feel good they campaign against s** education and abortion! These are things that are necessary if you are going to have a culture like the one America prides itself in!
We are not a western people and our Morals and Values are not the same as those who are. This is a fact.
We do not treat are woman the same way Americans do. There is nothing wrong with that.
Does a Secular Culture that promotes in every way that the only way for a women to get ahead or be considered “cool” is to look like a movie star who only looks the way she does because she invests millions in her appearance respect women?
Does a culture that allows for male and female high school students to mix and then doesn’t teach them how to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancies and STDs respect women?
Does a culture that shuns Teenagers who have fell victim to what it promotes because it makes them feel good and “conservative” respect women?
This idea that Secular America is a place were women are respected and everyone just “lives and lets live” is silly
soliek…i wanna try getting an interview with her…
This poor girl seems mentally ill. I don’t understand why people couldn’t just reject the rigidity of Satmar and the like and just become frum Jews.
She was seemingly always “off the derech” as she did not have or retain a love for Hashem and His Mitzvos. It’s a prime example of culture clash and has little to do with religion.
As for those who are blaming her, why? Do we want this type of person within frumkeit? She is rebellious against G-d and His Torah, not just Chassidus. if she was, she would just become a regular religious Jew.
I too was rebellious. I gave up eating trief, dressing immodestly and dating gentiles (all accepted and expected in my family). Maybe I should write a book!
The frum world, from MO to Yeshivish should be open and accepting of those off the derech and be available to them to find the proper road back. I would gladly have her, her son and her non-Jewish boyfriend over for Shabbos.
Sorry for the horrible grammar. Just got back from the Drs office and didn’t proofread my post.
I just read an interview with her in the Forward
She keeps a Kosher home, when her son is at her house, She keeps a full Shabbos
She said her son likes Judiasm and wants him to explore that.
She also wants to visit Israel this summer
The truth is it seems she wants to be jewish and maybe conservodox, just not be Satmar
800 Kilobear -I agree with your post on the other page -very nice.
The one above -No comment.
I do pity her and I feel she might not have had a Din of a Roshanta considering her circumstamces, but once she tried to capitalize on her sick behavior by putting down Frum Jews – all this goes out the window.
A lot of people go OTD and think they are right for whatever reason. But s/o who goes OTD and publicizes this for a little fame and fortune is a Rosha Gomor and will pay doubly – more than anyone else who went OTD!
“This poor girl seems mentally ill.”
so thats it? the world is split into frum people and the mentally ill?
” I don’t understand why people couldn’t just reject the rigidity of Satmar and the like and just become frum Jews.”
because its not a matter of religion its a matter of society, community, and acceptance.
“She was seemingly always “off the derech” as she did not have or retain a love for Hashem and His Mitzvos. It’s a prime example of culture clash and has little to do with religion.”
which shows that you understand the difference between religion and society, and begs the question why you dont understand why she renounced her judaism.
” She is rebellious against G-d and His Torah”
yes but why?
” not just Chassidus. if she was, she would just become a regular religious Jew.”
the third time youve contradicted yourself
“I too was rebellious. I gave up eating trief, dressing immodestly and dating gentiles (all accepted and expected in my family).”
shkoyach. so you are the perfect parallel. you didnt go from being irreligious to being ever so slightly religious and stay there, you became frum. why go all the way? do you thing you would have been accepted by your community had you not gone all the way?
“The frum world, from MO to Yeshivish should be open and accepting of those off the derech and be available to them to find the proper road back.”
so now youre completely recanting everything you said, and are criticizing frum jewery.
“I would gladly have her, her son and her non-Jewish boyfriend over for Shabbos.”
have at it
After hearing all about this and seeing what a Major Chilul Hashem was brought about from this. We have to learn to make each and every member of Klal Yisroel feel welcome and if unfortunately when there are such cases of dysfunctional families and individuals who are not getting the right treatment.
(Based on her own words I see a major mental illness that went untreated). It could be no one was available to help her, but she fell through the cracks and now is taking out her frustrations about leading such a miserable life on her lifestyle which may or most probably didn’t cause her to be so angry and frustrated. She had no support and now in her words she feels supported. It’s so sad but it’s nebach on her and her son who’s not given a chance (with a mother like that it will be hard for him to connect to Chassidim -his extended family as well)
Many Chasidim I know are so happy and content. Their rules and stringencies are intense and are there to help them maintain and preserve their Chasidish lifestyle.
health…dont you get it…the whole book is one big self justification
“This poor girl seems mentally ill.”
so thats it? the world is split into frum people and the mentally ill?
**Don’t think I said that. Nice assumption though.
“I don’t understand why people couldn’t just reject the rigidity of Satmar and the like and just become frum Jews.”
because its not a matter of religion its a matter of society, community, and acceptance.
** That is exactly my point. If she hates not driving, marrying a man she just met and shaving her head… leave Satmar, not Judaism. I ask again, I don’t understand why people couldn’t just reject the rigidity of Satmar and the like and just become frum Jews. The fact that she gave it ALL up proves that her taina is not with Satmar it’s with all Judaism.
” not just Chassidus. if she was, she would just become a regular religious Jew.”
the third time youve contradicted yourself
** Don’t think I have even once.
“shkoyach. so you are the perfect parallel. you didnt go from being irreligious to being ever so slightly religious and stay there, you became frum. why go all the way?”
** While don’t appreciate your patronizing attitude I will still answer the question. I, in fact didn’t “go all the way.” I was brought up anti-religious and leftist Democrat. When I became Frum I adopted the RELIGION and not the SOCIETY… i.e. I am still a Democrat, left on many social issues, etc. I didn’t buy into the no secular music, no jeans, black suit, black hat because those are all CULTURAL things that I reject. AGAIN she could have REJECTED THE CULTURE without REJECTING THE RELIGION. Many people leave the world of the Amish (a culture) to live as good Christian Mennonites (a religion). Most don’t chuck it all and become Buddhist or Jewish.
“do you thing you would have been accepted by your community had you not gone all the way?”
** I don’t really care. I am who I am. I love G-d and follow His Torah. If someone doesn’t like the fact that I am not black hat Yeshivish I say who cares? My wife wears a tichel only and refuses to wear a sheitel because she thinks it is contrary to the way a Jewish should look. That’s her choice. My Rav didn’t wear a black hat because his Yeshivah (Chofeitz Chaim) taught, back in the day, that black hats were haughty and people wore them only to say… look at me! I’m frum! That’s his choice. FYI- My wife’s family were Satmar (directly descended from the Baal Kitzur Shulchan Aruch in Ungvar Hungary. None of them are still Satmar but they are ALL FRUM. Guess you don’t have to go “all the way” do you?
“She was seemingly always “off the derech” as she did not have or retain a love for Hashem and His Mitzvos. It’s a prime example of culture clash and has little to do with religion.”
which shows that you understand the difference between religion and society, and begs the question why you dont understand why she renounced her judaism.
** You are making no sense. Last I checked, Judaism was a religion. She left it all… Chassidus and Judaism. She could have just left Chassidus.
“The frum world, from MO to Yeshivish should be open and accepting of those off the derech and be available to them to find the proper road back.”
so now youre completely recanting everything you said, and are criticizing frum jewery.
** Are you high? How do you get that from what I said?
“I would gladly have her, her son and her non-Jewish boyfriend over for Shabbos.”
have at it
** Do you have her number?
rubberbands: nail on the head.
“so thats it? the world is split into frum people and the mentally ill?”
No. Apparently some are both.
I find it interesting that no one has answered Poppa’a excellent post on the first page. Those CR members that are on the opposing side of him seem to just be ignoring it, instead just waiting around for other posts they can “snipe” at.
Which, I guess, just proves that his points were correct.
Sad, very sad. The girl needs major counseling. She’s a rachmonus; her past is not enviable. Seems like people have taken the bait and missed the point – she’s suffered tremendous trauma. A poor soul indeed.
Many posters have complained that she smeared an entire group, she is biased and must be mentally ill. Yet, you have no problem doing the same thing, all Irish are drunks who beat their wives, most otd are dysfunctional and mentally ill and there is zero truth in her words because you have no bias
Shraga18: Popa is one of the bigger trolls here, and lately I’ve been just ignoring his posts.
I don’t get why people say that she’s obviously mentally ill. Have you met her? Did you speak to her? How would you know?
Then people are saying things about the book. Soliek said the book is one big self-justification. How do you know? Have you read the book? AFAIK, it wasn’t even released yet!
As for why she left Judaism, not just Satmar, it’s likely the same as one of the reasons I left Judaism for a while. I was told that all other ways were wrong. It was either this particular way or you’re going straight to hell. Eventually I got over that, and found another path of frum Judaism that works for me. Hopefully she’ll find the same thing.
I disagree that she’s completely rejected frumkeit, if it’s true she’s sending her son to a MO school.
As someone who became frum as an adult, I feel terrible for her that she was treated so horribly growing up that she walked away from what I wish I’d had (granted, not in Satmar, which is maybe part of the point).
I look back on my secular childhood and the trappings all seem so hollow now. Even then I felt deprived because we weren’t even “middle class” economically. That’s the thing with secular society – it’s impossible to become happy with what you have at some point. She doesn’t even see how her publisher and the media have already exploited her. I read that the dress she wore in that story was bought by the magazine, for the picture. Clearly she’s making a statement by wearing it – ‘THIS is how much I reject my upbringing’.
I just hope she’s able to find peace in her relationship with Hashem. Ultimately she doesn’t answer to any of us – only Him.
by the way, her book isnt out yet so we dont really know whats in it…all we have are her interviews. the impression i get is that she wrote her book to get past her…past…and that its one big self justification. but the truth is that her story is nothing incredible…i see it all the time. in fact her story is so incredibly ordinary that the only reason i can think of why it was published is the satmar bashing and the expose like feel that the promotion has.
but although her story is common, its often ignored. everyone makes a big stink about it when someone like her goes and writes a book about it, but not very many people care enough when her story is happening to a cousin, or a friend, or to a small but significant chunk of frum jews today.
pay attention as you walk through the streets, really look at peoples’ faces. do you see pain? are their heads down and shoulders hunched? do they look like they carry the weight of the world? i see her story in so many kids, and i see everyone do nothing.
which is why i would like to take this opportunity to capitalize on her temporary fame and sensation. ill be buying her book, and ill be attending her talk, and im going to try and get an interview because the impression i get, again i cant know if this is true yet because the book isnt out, is that she spends so much time bashing that she leaves out the important part…the experience, the pain. and i think that thats the story she should have, and perhaps wants to tell. without the slant, without the faux carefree attitude…the stury of a kid in pain who desperately cried for help.
i may be reaching, but i know many people who are in the situation she was in, and i know that thats how they feel. and i think its an important story to tell.
I don’t know where you are all getting your information about the book and the author from. I don’t believe the book is out yet.
I only read the NY Post article, and I really didn’t see any smearing, or any bashing. I saw a nice woman saying that a certain life was not making her happy, which may have had to do with her messy family situation.
Ok. She’s dating an Irish Catholic- if she really wanted to escape religion and rules (catholic have strict beliefs)she’d go for a liberal, atheistic guy I was wondering why felt accepted with a Catholic since they’re not tolerant type of pple
Yes. many if not most happy content teens who have loving stable homes will not go of the derech unless their friends have more influence on their lives. It doesn’t sound like she had friends or support from her community—which is upsetting but prob. b/c they were scared to get badly influenced by her.
The Chilul Hashem is awful and we have try not to let this happen again.
I was so upset to hear she’s planning on writing a series on the crime in the Chassidish community—pure anti-self-Semetic books..the non-Jews don’t respect her and the MO are embarrassed that she associates herself with them..
Her language sounds like WHITE TRASH it’s not proper and sophisticated it’ the utmost embarrassing thing that happened–b/c the media/secular love writing and filming of such extremists (Arabs, anyone who’s so-called extreme) they got their hands on a winner who will muck rack the entire Chassidish community will her filth. Which all completely biased!!
“it seems she wants to be jewish and maybe conservodox”
With an Irish Catholic boyfriend and a crab cake lunch? I’m not sure what she wants to be, but it sure aint Jewish.
Just wait till her son is old enough to realize what his mother is up to. Then, she will understand that her actions are not “her own personal choice”.
The ripple effects are very far reaching.
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