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Posts
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800 Kilo Bear -“Those who covered for molestors in earlier days frankly barely understood the whole issue in many cases.”
Wake up call to hibernating bears in Russia, Ukraine, Siberia or wherever -Sorry here in the US they still cover for them!
ZeesKite -“Again ({and again and..}) – you don’t have to call me any names or be upset with me. Neither a megaleh ponim, nor a Joseph(!?! – where did that come from?). I’m not in this to fight, at all!!”
I didn’t call you a name -I just said you posted differently when you posted under the Joseph name.
As far as Megaleh Ponim -you were; because you defended molesters and said they are B’chlal Amesecha. This was done on purpose probably. Either way B’mazid or B’shogeg you have to do Teshuva. There almost is No such thing as a one time molester and you said all molesters.
“Getting back to my point – as you yourself so well repeated – a mumar lta’avon, muchzak, as a molester, still need requirements. As you’ve stated “as long as you don’t make more than it is..” A porek ol does not need any requirements. Kindly correct me if I’m wrong.”
Look you said all molesters, even ones that you & they have completed all requirements. Since this isn’t the Halacha you were Megaleh Ponim B’torah Shelo K’halacha. The question to you was do you hate molesters the same way you hate DF. And your answer was you don’t hate molesters because they are only Mumers L’teavon. Since most Molesters don’t fall into this category -you either like them anyway, in spite of them being Reshayim or you pick and choose what part of the C.C. to listen to.
“As far as your referencing to Gemorahs that say about whom HaShem hates, I don’t think it’s brought down ANYWHERE, in any sefer halacha or mussar, as a Mitzvah for US to hate those who HaShem hates. As HaLeiVi quoted a Gemarrah that says HaShem hates someone who walks suddenly into his OWN house (Nidda 16b). Many other things there too.”
Noone said that you have to hate s/o because Hashem hates them. You keep posting the same thing. Stop twisting my words.
Btw, now that you finally posted where the Gemorah is – I looked it up. Ben Sira says 3 I hate and four I don’t love. The one Hashem doesn’t love is entering the home etc. He doesn’t hate it.
R’ Shimon Bar Yochai says 4 things Hashem hates. So you see Hashem hates the action, not the person, as opposed to a “Frum Faker” -Hashem hates the person.
Now back to my point -The only Heter to hate another Jew if he is a Rosho. So you hate DF because she is a Rosho -fine. I asked do you hate other Reshayim, like “Frum Fakers” eg. molesters as much as her. Since you Dreyed out of it -I can only assume you don’t.
Why you don’t I just discussed above. But the fact that you don’t hate other Reshayim, even those that it says Hashem hates -this I find very problematic!
there’s a very well-written response to the book by a satmar lady in the chronicles section of the jewish press.
Too bad she did not grow up in a community which had a way she could connect to G-d.
The Satmar path with its intensive “Nezirus” type separation is not for everyone. What do such communities do with children for whom such a path is not suitable?
A child pushed in a path not suitable for him or her will rebel, and in some cases violently.
On a less serious note: The fact that Bear woke up so early before Purim is evidence of Global Warming.
Josh, your imagination of Satmar life is far from reality.
Hershi, your imagination of the Nazir’s life is far from reality.
He could drink beer and hard liquor.
He had no additional restrictions as to marital relations.
Just he had to keep away from grapes and their byproducts, and keep away from hospitals and funerals for one month.
No haircuts or shaving for one month. (Our sefira period is longer.)
The one difficult part was the shaving the head at the end of the Nezirus. Satmar women have to do this every month.
josh31, The one difficult part was the shaving the head at the end of the Nezirus. Satmar women have to do this every month.
OTOH most Satmar women arent expected to have large families AND work to support them, Litvish women are.
Personally, Id rather shave and have my better half bring in all the dough and not have half the difficult time marrying off daughters and go with the 50/50 shared expenses and not support children til Moshiach comes.
There are advantages and disadvantages in all communities.
Health:
Did I post under a different name? Joseph?? I don’t know what you’re leading to with that. Honestly. I wish you’d stop with that.
About the difference between a molester and this menuveles, look again in the Chofetz Chaim. A porek ol l’gamri doesn’t need ANY requirements, in addition it is a mitzvah to ridicule, whereas a murar l’ta’avon, even muchzak rasha lta’avon does need some requirements. Again, not my own, look it up.
And, as a personal favor, kindly refrain from calling me over & over such titles as “Megaleh Ponim..” Thanks
ZK -“And, as a personal favor, kindly refrain from calling me over & over such titles as “Megaleh Ponim..”
I will Not refrain until you are Choizer on your post. This Naarishkeit of some requirements doesn’t mean much. Once you do these requirements – the Mumer L’teavon has the exact same Din.
You won’t admit to this because you don’t hate “Frum Fakers”, even though the Torah requires it. You somehow think that you can manipulate me, like you manipulate others. You can’t; no matter how many times you try.
I will consider you to be a Megaleh Ponim until you admit you are required to hate “Frum Fakers” and molesters. And don’t forget to include in your post how you tried to manipulate people here – that molesters are still considered B’clal Amesecha!
ZeesKite, she may be into attacking her former community “for the money” which would make her a mumar l’ta’avon.
“There are advantages and disadvantages in all communities.”
Correct.
But all communities need to recognize that they are not the only way. Some children connect to G-d thru Chassidus, some thru the Litvish approach and some thru the YU approach.
One Navi (prophet) had to castigate those who forced wine into children energized by Nezirus.
Health:
Kindly, please, tone down, slightly. Again, there is no mitzvah to hate a mumar lta’avon. No. After meeting some requirements, it is PERMISSIBLE – for the benefits specified in the Chofetz Chaim.
A mumar of porek ol, does not need any requirments, and is a MITZVAH.
LOOK IT UP! PLEASE, LOOK IT UP, then correct me if I’m wrong. (I do not want to call people here names in an argument, it won’t do anything to get my point across)
@ he who calls himself Health.
Interesting to hear that one who may be making a To’us you consider being a” Migaleh Ponim…”
If so, then with that you pronounced yourself as a Migaleh Ponim …
So, please be more Eidel & careful before you attack!
peacefull -“Interesting to hear that one who may be making a To’us you consider being a” Migaleh Ponim…”
If so, then with that you pronounced yourself as a Migaleh Ponim …”
Joseph -why come up with another SN to post to me? What’s wrong with Zeeskeit? And you came up with a good defense -“calling me the Megaleh Ponim”!
Sorry, ‘peacefull’ is not me. Neither is Joseph. Neither Eclipse. It’s been discussed, deliberated and resolved earlier. (Mod80 can vouch) I do not use trickery to prove myself. Never did. Never will (??? ???).
Just plain ZeesKite. (still working on it)
p.s. if you’d know me in real life, you’d burst out laughing at whom you’re arguing with. Again, I’M REALLY NOT WORTH YOUR FIGHT!! But again, I guess that’s one of the benefits of anonymity, enabling you to think I’m an educated personality. HA!!!!
btw zeeskite, unless you’ve just been trolling, are you as zealous in your observance of all the mitzvos as you are in hating this individual?
ZK -“LOOK IT UP! PLEASE, LOOK IT UP, then correct me if I’m wrong.”
I did many times. There is no difference between Mummer L’teavon and Mumer L’hachas once the MLT does it a few times. So if you hold that there is a Mitzva to hate people like DF -the same Mitzva applies to molesters.
solike, do you take as much umbrage when someone zealosly upholds other mitzvos as you do on this mitzva? Or is your umbrage limited to questioning the streghnth of those upholding mitzvos that cause you to take umbrage, while some other mitzvos you are okay if someone zealosly guards?
No.
I’m not.
I wish I were.
Working to get there.
It just gets to me, it eats me when someone goes overboard on public (as public can be) rampage, a vicious campaign to besmirch, denigrate the image of my Creator, my Torah, my People. So I stand up. I sound off, too. If not for other people, then for myself. So that her disgustingness should have no effect on me.
That’s all. Can nobody understand me?
Am I on the wrong site?
ZeesKite, Birkas Cohanim is not my Mizvah and war against evil is not yours.
When King Shaul and King David drafted armies for their battles, how many women were called? Zero
hershi: no. in this case i believe zeeskite is wrong.
Personally, I am embarassed having any commonality with those who openly speak of hate for an author of a book, more than theyre willing to publicly hate those who have, in real life, been proven to have seriously hurt innocent victims and those who have protected and covered for the perps, as well, many of whom (perps and cover-uppers), continuing to masquerade as role models in our community.
can everyone stop with the frum faker thing? its a straw man…it really is…the issue here is DF not some made up hypothetical pedophile
Sorry I missed most of the argument, but from what I see here, some ppl are missing the halachic difference between one who is not oseh masseh amchoh, so he would not be included in “amisechoh”, so there’s no issur to hate that person, versus one who may be very bad, and there may be many consequenses he may face by all of us, but is still included in “amisechoh”, so there no heter to hate that person. period.
And I’m still shocked and surprised that some clueless ppl would still stand up for a person who has took a vicious and humiliating step towards her own family, all frum yidden and am yisroel in general, plus against hashem and the Torah, she is definitely not included in “amisechoh”, and especially when she clearly states she’s not keeping the torah, she is only making fun of torah umitzvos. End of story.
Medium Size Shadchan
Your last post was sucintly put, thank you!!
How can one compare a young woman OTD to those who actively and physically destroy and maim innocent lives in our community too young to defend themselves.
Hi Shadchan. It’s me, the one you’re embarrassed to have any commonality with.
Again?
Please read before attacking. This is not just an author of a book. This is one who went out ?????? ??? at a campaign to smear HaShem and the way of life He ordained. Not only the book. Any venue possible. It was literally “in my face”. OK? You hear me? IN MY FACE. Media, web, newsstands and her publication, With one intent.
As for those who have proven to have seriously hurt individuals, I do not know them. Never heard about them. Never tried in my court. They never came to me to publicize their craze. In fact I don’t even know who you’re referring to.
All these people keep ‘hacking’ is why I stand up for HaShem’s honor, if there’s someone somewhere else getting victimized. Hear that? How could I be moche for HaShem’s PUBLIC DISGRACE, if someone somewhere, which I don’t know about, could be is getting hurt.
It’s three days to Purim. Wait.
Tahini, please finish your sentence, a young woman off the derech that is trying to destroy and bring misery upon many lives, young and old..
by condemning a beast that stops for nothing in order to get her few minutes of attention and a few bucks, poking fun at Torah umitzvos, and on thousands of people, stabbing a big knife into the back of her community, friends and family, is one of the worst that can be.
Well, as more than one poster has clearly and amply enumerated, she is much worse than an abuser. We don’t determine this, Hashem did.
This thread has really gone off the deep end. Zeeskite was taking a stance against the author of this book – something she feels strongly about. Where do molesters come into the picture? This is not what the conversation is about. You make it sound as if she herself is a molester or at least is harboring one.
Naysberg, she is much worse than an abuser
Even when you hear MANY Gedolim and psychologists clearly saying that the bulk of OTD and suicidal males, are a result of such abuse in school by supposed “role models” and the protectors who allow them to continue?
DF was abused when she was about 12
Many of the anti-religious blogs were written by victims.
This is not to say abuse is the main reason for OTD, but its seems the biggest MOUTHS are victims
Naysburg,
You said,
“Well, as more than one poster has clearly and amply enumerated, she is much worse than an abuser. We don’t determine this, Hashem did.”
This is (whether people here want to admit it in a public forum or not) what most Yeshivish people and their Rabbonim think is true. They honestly beleive that someone writing a book that denigrates their way of life is worse then a Child Molester and probably even a Murderer.
I would venture to say the fact that many Rabbonim are willing to speak out about the denier of women’s stockings, Concerts and same gender marriage while staying silent in the face of things that actually cause immense damage and pain to the people they are supposed to be leading shows that they have a similarly warped sense of morality.
…..I said what I had to say and now Im outta here!! not gonna have a whole discussion about this here!!!
Big Deal, right on. This is why I stopped commenting here. Just one point: DF has announced to all the world what she is, while the guilt of molesters is difficult if not almost impossible to determine. What stops any kid from falsely accusing any adult he wants to get back at?
Medium, it’s good news to me that you are implying that basically one or two such people exist and he or both of them are responsible for the OTDs. Otherwise, we’d have to match the effect with the amount of people each molester effected.
If you are right, then I agree that he caused more damage that this greater enemy of Yiddishkeit.
Regardless, it is a greater priority to take care of that problem than to fight her, since their damage to Frum people is a bigger issue and a more imminent threat than her effect on our greater picture in the eyes of outsiders.
This doesn’t, however change the fact that she is more foreign to us and our hearts. She is a bigger, proclaimed, enemy of our people. Perhaps not a bigger problem, but a bigger enemy.
A rabid, hate mongering Muslim cleric in London is definitely a bigger enemy of the US than those hurting our economy, although you can still argue that the economy is having a bigger and more imminent effect on the US.
I am shocked people can compare an abuser or a collaborator happy to coverup or protect those that attack society’s innocents to a troubled young person. To equate the two is horrendous, and to say she is worse than an abuser is grotesque, tell that to the parents of young men whose lives have been destroyed by those meant to offer guidance and protection.
Is public shame for untruths worse than silent torment for physical and emotional assault?. The victims of abuse are assaulted twice over, by members of their community who prey on the vulnerable and by community leaders afraid or unwilling to unmask and punish the abusers, so leaving the victim isolated, ostracised and scarred for life. Medium Size Shadchan is the voice of reason and compassion.
No one is whitewashing the behaviour of DF, just distinguishing between loss of faith coupled with greed against pure evil.
tahini:
Just in case you read the English language, this topic was about this menuveles. Just her, nobody else. Nobody is comparing her to anybody anything anywhere. OK?
Who was the one to mix it in. HOW DOES THAT COME IN???
It’s just interesting to note how people get so sensational about one topic, it gets repeated over and over, this one about Kovod Shamaim receives no such equal response. “No one is whitewashing…” Oh really? Have you seen a bit of her filth? IT SHOULD MAKE YOU BLOOD BOIL!
?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????
OK?
HaShem is still higher than any mortal. He deserves the utmost respect. Anything written to mitigate the tremendous, widespread, far-reaching Chilul HaShem she did, is a step in the wrong direction.
And likewise, noone is whitewashing the effect and urgency of child victims, but the issue is (or started off being) if you should feel bad for her or save those emotions for more worthy people.
tahini: nobody is comparing anyone to anything. This thread was about DF – not about if its worse to be a molester. What is so hard to understand about that? Why make assumptions about people’s feelings and beliefs without them even talking about a topic they’re not discussing.
zdad – What makes you believe that? She masterfully manipulated every part of her “memoir” (culture and personal history included) to prey on readers’ emotions.
Actually, if you knew her, you would definitely be under the assumption that the real story is that she was fooling around with her cousin. (If there was in fact a story) Or, perhaps that she was the one hitting on him.
“DF was abused when she was about 12”
And I should believe this because…?
If anyone said this already (inlcuding me, ebcause I am having a senior moment and cannot find the remark), is it not curious that someone who made the claim that chassidic girls only have a fourth grade reading level (she did write that, didn’t she?), was not only able to write and publish this work of possible fiction that passes for truth, but was accepted into a prestigious women’s college? How many fourth grade girls do we know in college these days, or guesting on The View?
Position affects one’s ability to do harm.
DF now has so little credibility even in the outside world that her impact has been greatly diminished.
You may find a charity patient in a state mental institution with more hatred towards Jews than the Iranian leadership, but this patient is not worth our time worrying about.
With DF you just point out her lies and move on.
A child molester in a position of authority is a multiple Rodef (life & death threat) and creates a heavy obligation on those who can save potential victims to act quickly.
Zissy -“versus one who may be very bad, and there may be many consequenses he may face by all of us, but is still included in “amisechoh”, so there no heter to hate that person. period.”
So who falls into this category that you’re now describing? If you are talking about molesters -they aren’t in the category of Amesecha -so you can hate them.
MODs: I really don’t know how you let 646’s chutzpa toward Rabbonim go through. ????? ?? ???? ???. This is starting to look like some other site I ran from.
msseeker, “DF was abused when she was about 12”
And I should believe this because…?
My sentiments exactly!
If she had the goods on anyone, she wouldnt hesitate to mention by name or at least offer identifying details. She offered all inhabitants on the Planet Earth details of her and her husband’s private life (the husband part, which her son will hate her for one day). She claims to be shy, in an interview. Suuuuure.
ZeesKite, your husband needs to put his Gemaras and Shulchan Aruch under lock and key. You know more “Fire & Brimstone” concepts from the Gemara / poskim than those who have been learning in Yeshiva for a decade. If you were a guy, you would sail thru the Smicha exam when it comes to the laws of Neidui, Mumrim and Apikorsim.
On the other hand, it is too late to lock them up as you have probably committed all the relevant passages to memory.
Most of the OTD blogs are written by attention seekers. A handful were abused, but just as many if not more make up stories of abuse. The big time menuvelach who get picked up by the frei papers do not claim to have been abused.
I was sucked in twice by young adults who told me tall tales of their abuse by family members. One claimed the abuser was a parent; the other refused to give me the name of the “cousin” even though I know the family. A little digging and I found out both cases were lies. Both of them were just classic “users” who wanted my attention (one may be OTD now; the other is not). After that, I stopped making myself available to speak to young people; this should be left to professionals and kiruv rabbonim. Wannabe askanim are behind a lot of problems in our community.
The big-time creeps like Mondrowitz, Kolko, Lebovits, Weingarten, Cyprys, Kramer, Lanner etc (may each of them have a misse meshune and when they are gone, they deserve YMS after their names) are worthy of hatred and disdain. They probably are under din roidef. Mondrowitz needs to be erased from this world no less than Ahmadinejad does and on the day he peygers, I intend to celebrate. I think there are plenty of people, myself very much included, who would help usher Mondrowitz (and perhaps Kolko as well as he has also escaped justice) into sheol tachtis were it not for fear of arrest followed by a murder charge.
Some of the other cases are not so clear and professionals need to be brought in before lives are ruined. I had to think twice when my friend’s son asked me to help him fasten his belt in the shul courtyard because in the US, I’d end up accused of the unthinkable by some wannabe askan. Fortunately, I live in a place where abuse fever has yet to penetrate.
Meanwhile, this reshois Feldman is a double-edged sword. I don’t know if she will convince others to go OTD now that she has been outed – or if she will be seen as a clear example of what an OTD attention-monger is all about. Those who believe her are far past tshuva anyway; they are the same ones who will go to kiruv functions for free food and a good fight with the speaker, and you also see them on another forum where their services as trolls attract hits so that they are not censored.
Pearlperry also came across as trailer park trash and I don’t think she will have much impact in the end.
Josh31
ZeesKite, your husband needs to put his Gemaras and Shulchan Aruch under lock and key. You know more “Fire & Brimstone” concepts from the Gemara / poskim than those who have been learning in Yeshiva for a decade. If you were a guy, you would sail thru the Smicha exam when it comes to the laws of Neidui, Mumrim and Apikorsim.
On the other hand, it is too late to lock them up as you have probably committed all the relevant passages to memory.
Oh boy! I vote this best post of the year!
Thanks for the Purim gift!
Josh, ZeesKite would need an internet filter that blocks out Gemara.
For all our disputes with ZeesKite, I am convinced that she has been thru Shas at least once, and probably twice. Her knowledge is not based upon tidbits that can be picked up on the internet. And based upon another posting in YWN, her knowledge is not just in the area of “Fire & Brimstone”.
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