Memoir called "Unorthodox" and its effect on us

the real question we must ask . Why are we chasing people away and not only we are chasing people away and they are “fighting”

Why is there a need for an organization to help these people (There is a need because there is a demand, if there was no demand there wouldnt be a need)

So much time and effort is spent on kirov, How about trying to keep those already there

Guter yid: do you need her to be a liar? as far as im concerned every word of it could be true and i wouldnt care because she sees it one way and i see it another way. she sees nothing but oppression, and i see beauty in judaism, why do YOU need her to be a liar?

if she lied id like to see it. i asked for a list because i was genuinely interested and curious. if you have instances where she lied please list them in a coherent manner rather than ranting about how my level of torah observance must be questionable.

Naisberg: you want attention? here. have some attention.

mytake: thank you, i really am curious. by the way i know quite about chassidim, but her book is specifically about satmar in williamsburg…not all chassidim, and i only know about chassidus in boro park.

also what you said about the conversation…in memoir it is acceptable to reconstruct a conversation from memory even if it isnt word for word. she prints that disclaimer before the book.

“So much time and effort is spent on kirov, How about trying to keep those already there”

Project Chazon

by the way…for those of you who may have forgotten…heres what i originally write about the matter

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/memoir-called-unorthodox-and-its-affect-on-us#post-352289

Zahavasdad, thanks so much for your post!

We do indeed need an organisation for young people leaving the fold, to show those who are unhappy or experienced troubled homelife a sense of identity and provide support. Kiruv is so very much supported and quite rightly so, but so should be those upset within the frum world itself. Suspect it is a cause of embarrasment and people prefer to keep it quiet, can’t see an appeal or fund raiser for troubled emotionally damaged frum families getting much coverage in the frum world. We are very image sensitive and need to get back a sense of reality and what really counts.

Guys, gals…

Has anyone actually READ this book??

I really don’t get it, no matter how MANY lies we prove in this thread there are those who keep insisting we spell out her lies?? I guess you didn’t get a proper education? Did you all go to Satmer? She SAID everyone graduates there with a fourth grade reading level?? Is that what the problem is? By the way she DIDNT even go to Satmer all the years . She attended other schools as well. What about the LIE that Chassidic children are never taken to doctors??? That wasn’t a lie??? Just go pass any pediatrician office in Williamsburg, ask them if they are all under the poverty level, since no chassidim use drs?????

Bottom line everyone has a free choice to make their own choices in life and then THEY HAVE TO LIVE WITH THOSE DECISIONS! She did not have to paint chassidim and jews black!! She did live in one of the most warm communities in New York, with the most chesed available ! It is unfortunate that she didn’t feel that way!

By the way, all the bashing here is really not conducive to th achdus in Klal Yisroel that is needed right now! I am not looking down at others who do less than me and I don’t appreciate being bashed or painted black by those who do!

In the interest of fairness, ill address the two alleged lies that people posted here in this thread.

1) The purpose of relations is for procreation: debatable.

2) Chinuch doesnt necessarily mean what she described as being the absolute definition of what chinuch is: that IS a lie, however she may not have known better. either way it IS questionable, thank you for pointing it out.

3) The age of the boy who was killed/committed suicide: does the age really matter? the story is what matters and we’ve established that the story is false. i would call that a terrible lack of due diligence on both her and simon and schuster’s parts.

any more?

Feif Un -“Health: Again, instead of just spewing hatred, please list some of the lies she wrote about – and not the same old thing about the possible murder cover-up.”

I understand that you Feif -Un, but you look foolish when you Feif Un without reading other’s posts!

I posted three lies -one came from another poster about make up, another was about an interview that had to do with reading skills that they graduate with, and the third I found myself, which came from an excerpt. This was about Chinuch.

“What about the LIE that Chassidic children are never taken to doctors???”

theres another one. thank you. that one actually really annoyed me when i read it.

“he SAID everyone graduates there with a fourth grade reading level”

there was some truth to what she said about secular education in chassidish schools, that the administration doesnt take it seriously and neither do the kids or their parents.

by the way…im not attacking any of you, i have no idea why youre all attacking me.

Soleik:; Do all Satmer graduates have a fourth grade reading level when they graduate? Not even one of them because they would NEVER graduate!

Just because they CHOOSE what they allow their students to read does not mean they don’t read at all!! As faras the bedroom scene, she paints lies , one after another and I WILL NOT GO INTO DETAIL there either!

000646 -“Health,

Re: the makeup thing,

I grew up in Lakewood and I know that evrey yeshivish Highschool has a rule against teenage girls wearing makeup. I cannot imagine that Satmar Chasidim are less makpid on this.”

Now I understand your hatred towards Frum people -a lot of kids growing up here become very disillusioned. This has to do with the way this town is run. The makeup issue was not my post -I just repeated it. Anyway the poster said -she said she didn’t wear makeup or very little till her marriage, but a former colleague said she wore normal makeup everyday that she taught when she was single.

“Do you not see how little sense you make, and how you contradict yourself??”

No, there is no contradiction! Yes, I am objective, but that doesn’t mean I can’t add -it’s common sense from what I’ve seen so far – that her book is full of lies. You are still objective if you know 2 + 2 = 4. You don’t have to wait till you actually add everything up. That’s why I went to read an excerpt online to prove to myself that my thought process was correct. And I didn’t have to go far to find the lie about Chinuch.

But you can’t possibly see the truth, can you?

Please tell me what occurred to you here in this town as a kid, that made you become bias against Orthodox Judaism?

the bedroom stuff shocked me…that should have been kept private especially since she said that she felt violated when her husband told his sister about what had happened.

a mamin: i am reading that blog. as to why you should read the book if you claim to be calling her out on lies…how can you know that shes lying if you dont know what shes saying?

I looked at the website. Here are some of the things they harp on:

She said 50 feet when really it’s less, more like 15 feet. Is that seriously what you’re going against? Misjudging distance?

Then she says feet stomping on stone. What’s the problem with that? That the floor isn’t stone? Oh no, the entire story must be false!

You know the old story about the Rav giving a drasha? He says, “So many people here take the train every morning. Let’s say one day you’re trying to make the 7:14 train, but you’re running late.”

He goes on to compare the train to teshuva, and running, while the train is waiting, etc. A very nice drasha. At the end, one man comes up to him and says, “Rabbi, your speech was completely wrong. The train doesn’t come at 7:14. There’s a 7:08 and a 7:23, but no 7:14 train!”

The guy obviously completely missed the point, and is discounting everything on a stupidity. They are doing the same thing.

I’ve been around df for a short while in her adult life. She is a very smart and convincing woman. She is extremely talented and puts up a great act at the drop of the hat.

Her views are extremely twisted – not just on religious issues – and she has the ability to convey whatever she wants using basic facts and distorting them just a drop to make them work for her.

Obviously, she is so full of filth and would flirt with men she’s barely known for five seconds.

Explain that to me. She claims she knew nothing about men/boys, had an uncomfortable marriage getting used to all that’s involved, and on the other hand she was perfectly comfortable flirting with men and starting the most despicable, dirty conversations possible. This was all before she went off.

Victimization. It is the best excuse anyone can come up with to do whatever they please. Anyone can claim they are a victim. We all are. Nobody has a perfect life. Some have worse some have better. If some people choose to look away from the tools and circumstances Hashem put into their lives to overcome and grow that’s their problem. Its also the quickest way to sink and wallow in the shallow secular world of taivos.

I did not post the above to bash DF. I posted to explain a drop who we are speaking about.

And the truth is that is doesn’t really matter. She wrote a book the way she decided to write it. Why are we getting all defensive. Whichever way we choose to call her on her lies its basically a she say he say type of thing. I say ignore it.

She chose to leave our beautiful way of life with all its so called problems. That’s her loss. Where did she really end up? Which women in the secular world doesn’t have to work continually to impress the opposite gender with the way they look, act or whatever? Is the rate of rapist and murderers there so much lower than in our circles? It just doesn’t get into the news anymore. It’s so commonplace.

What did she run from and where did she run to. CRABCAKES. I’m impressed.

And one more thing. She turned her back on Yiddishkeit. Why in the world would it be helpful for people to start bashing Satmar now. You think that if she would be Litvish, Lubavitch, MO, Sephardi or whatever she wouldn’t be writing this book. Don’t delude yourselves. She couldn’t control her Taivos and that is what brought her to very notable place where she is today. (nowhere)

This is not a time for us to start accusing each other about what we’re each doing wrong. It’s time to look at each other and see what we’re each doing right so that we can learn from each other how to be better people.

Dont besmirch Lakewood! It is for the most part run according to the ideals of Halacha and frum Yiddiskeit.

One Caveat: The antics needed to get your child into a school is reason enough for someone to want to go OTD (I don’t know if that is Al Pi Halacha or not).

Many lies have been exposed on this thread repeatedly. By keep asking what the lies are, doesn’t make her lies disappear.

Naisberg: So please combine them in a clear post, without spewing anything else along with it which just makes it tough to read. Here’s how it should look:

*Lie 1

*Lie 2

*Lie 3

Would that be so difficult?

Gavra,

You said,

“One Caveat: The antics needed to get your child into a school is reason enough for someone to want to go OTD (I don’t know if that is Al Pi Halacha or not).”

It is Al Pi Halacha. Schools are mechuyiv to make sure that the precious neshamalach in their care are protected from bad influences. Of course your arn’t supposed to say that Publicly. Actually in public you are supposed to print classified ads in the Yated sating that your school dosn’t discriminate in order to receive Government funds. (you can see those ads evrey week in the yated).

And if a B”D or Rav paskens that the children are a negative influence because the parents didn’t listen to something they said then they are a bad influence and the schools should not and cannot accept them.

There is a slight issue that using the threat of harming the wellfare of little kids in order to blackmail their parents into going along with what you think they should do seems morally repungnant to some…But hey that’s why you gotta keep quiet about it in public!!

And if a B”D or Rav paskens that the children are a negative influence because the parents didn’t listen to something they said then they are a bad influence and the schools should not and cannot accept them.

Unless you have Kesef. An in-law relative of mine had his PHD give a nice five figure donation (Other side, not mine, I wish I had a PHD) to get his grandchild in. With inflation being what it is, you probably need six figures at this point.

As I said, justification enough for someone to go OTD.

Poe’s law may be applying itself here.

00646 probably learnt in Satmer….lol!

The point is not to expose her lies/ distortions/ propaganda (call it what you want) which, quite frankly most of them cannot be discussed on this forum anyway.

Going back to the original op- its effect on us: The point is to appreciate the value of what Hashem has given us in terms of the mitzvos that teach us clearly a respectable way of life. Thank Hashem for teaching us family values and for giving most of us community support. And most of all daven that our children and us should see the beauty of the torah and remain true to its teachings.

The longer this thread and all other df exposing websites go on, the more we empower her. Why don’t we just close this thread and let her go away.

Zahavasdad,

You are just plain asinine, your comment are sillier and sillier.

Feif,

On many forums they have been laid out just like that. Your chosing to ignore them is your failing, no one else’s.

nishtdayngesheft,

What I have seen, is people saying:

1.) “Its a lie that single teenage chasidishe girls are told not to wear makeup”

When I know due to the fact that I grew up in a yeshivishe community that this is what is done and that girl’s highschools have rules against it.

2.)”Its a lie that satamr teenage girls are told not eat out”

When I know that it is told very strongly to teenage girls (and boys for that matter) that it doesn’t pas for them to do so

3.)”Its a lie that teenage satmar girls are told not to be out at night after a certain time.”

When I know for a fact that there is a takana in Satmar to that affect and that Beis Ruchel Dsatmar has such a rule

4.) “She claimed a murder happend in Kj when it didn’t”

Having read her book I know she makes no such claim

You see; you have to forgive me but so far the only people I have caught lying are the people calling HER a liar!

Ok maybe I missed something. To be clear you admit that,

1.)Single teenage chasidishe girls are told not to wear makeup”

2.)That satamr teenage girls are told not eat out

3.)Teenage satmar girls are told not to be out at night after a certain time.

4.) That she doesn’t falsely say a murder happened in KJ when in fact it didn’t

5.) You are claiming nobody has denied the 4 points I made above (by calling my quotes “straw men”) (?!)

I am confused. WHAT did she lie about according to you?????