Melacha Sh’einah Tzricha L’gufa

I can only try:

????? ?????? ?? ???? ???”? ?? ???? ?????

?????, ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???????

??? ?”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????

cherrybim,

More?! Do you know PM from real life, and have some sort of grudge against him?! Enough with the sarcasm! Is it worth it to lose all dignity to pursue this one-sided “fight”?

cherrybim: If the reason for Reb Moshe’s heter is “extinguishing without a wick is not kibuyi”, would it be permitted to turn off a gas burner or electric light on Shabbos as well??? If there is no melacha of kibuyi involved, why not? “

Probably because the melacha of cooking is ONLY permissible on Yom Tov (and is therefore referred to not as melacha, but as meleches avoda, and that is the only reason the use of the stove is permitted. It’s totally and unquestionably assur to use a fire for cooking on Shabbos, so the inyan of kibui is irrelevant also. If the cooking is the issue at hand, then the kibui is secondary to that. If cooking were not one of the L”T melachos, it takeh might be a different idea.

oomis1105: You make some very good and interesting points and have a very keen understanding of the issues. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable CRers will be able to give us a more thorough answer in terms of the other melachos and muktze issues involved on Shabbos when shutting off a gas flame.

oomis: Thank you very much for reading my posts and responding to the points I bring. Certainly it is true that one may not cook an a fire on Shabbos, but one could leave say a pot of chulent on the blech. According to cherrybim that there is no kibuyi w/o a wick, why couldn’t one turn off the gas fire after serving the chulent? The issue of bishul is irrelevant, it is only an issur of kibuyi. Also, according to his position, why not turn off electric lights or heaters, as they also have no wick? Of course the obvious answer is that kibuyi is 100% relevant even w/o a wick, however it may be derabannan because of melacha sheina tzricha l’gufa.

Your point about muktza is excellent. Reb Moshe actually writes that one may not adjust the pins on a Shabbos clock because of muktza, and presumably the same may apply to the knobs of a stove. Since YT is even stricter then Shabbos regarding muktza, this would be an additional reason why it is forbidden to turn off the stove on YT when not for ochel nefesh purposes.

PM,both bishul and any of its related actions are assur on Shabbos, whether kibui, stirring the food on the blech, adding cold to hot food while on the blech, putting raw food that was not cooked before Shabbos ont he blech, etc. All of that is muttar however, on Yom Tov, because they are actions needed for cooking, a meleches avoda which is 100% muttar to do on YT, though not on Shabbos. Also, turning the fire on and off is only muttar on YT when it relates to the cooking. You can’t do it to heat up the room on a cold Sukkos day. Therefore, it would make no sense to say that kibui which is permitted on yt would be permitted likewise on Shabbos, since the permission for kibui on YT ONLY pertains to the cooking which is a permissible action. Since cooking is assur on Shabbos, any related action such as kibui would also have to be assur.

That is my understanding of this, and while it is true I did not learn gemarah and mishneh berura, etc., I grew up in a frum home, and learned from my mother and both grandmothers, just as she learned from hers before her, and my dad’s sisters learned from their mother. If you think about it, all of the family kashrus is really for the most part dependent upon the eidus of the woman who run the household. We did not initially learn it from a sefer, we were taught by hands on mesorah what to do and how to properly do it, as well as what not to do.

oomis: “Therefore, it would make no sense to say that kibui which is permitted on yt would be permitted likewise on Shabbos”

You are 100% correct, but according to cherrybim turning off a gas fire IS NOT KIBUYI since it has no wick.