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why consider? dont you see that these are more effective?
Potching only taught me that my dad was a bully. He never learned to control his own emotions and would lose his cool and hit me. So please tell me, how was I to learn the necessary life skills to control my own emotions?
Positive reinforcement is a better tool to use than negative reinforcement for 2 reasons. Positivity is a motivator to repeat what was learned. Yet by hitting a child, you teach that if you’re bigger and stronger than who you face, you can hurt them. That doesn’t help in real life.
I’ve been on many medications and am thriving now off of them, better than when I was on them. I don’t have adhd and I understand that medications can change how one physically feels. But the reason I pulled through is because I used therapy to learn life skills I was missing. Therapy is more helpful than medications, as medications may deal with symptoms, but proper therapy deals with the cause of the symptoms.
Just because it seems effective, or you were hit yourself as a child, doesn’t mean that it’s the correct thing to do to kids under your care. Even a small love tap can trigger one who has been abused to shut off their inner personality. If hashem wanted us robots, he would have made us robots. Our uniqueness is what makes us great. I mean, how would you feel if you were controlled by fear? Most likely, you still are.
Life skills would include learning to control our emotions, not learning to let our emotions control us. Yes, most people nowadays are controlled by their emotions, meaning they are not in control of themselves.
A sign that most are controlled by their emotions is the rampant smoking and drug use nowadays. If you truly loved yourself, why would you harm your body by doing such things? People have a hard time quitting smoking because they never learnt to love themselves.
There is a lack of teaching tactics. Don’t you think that telling a child to do ten sit ups or push ups or jumping jacks would be more effective than hitting? It would also be positive for most children as small bits of exercise is very healthy for most normal people. Yet no one does this. Most don’t even understand that time out to think on their own is also more effective than shutting down the emotions.
One more thing. If you shoot a child dead, I guarantee you that he/she will never act out again. But that doesn’t truly solve the issue you have as he/she will definitely cut class for the rest of your lives. Besides, don’t we want to share positive messages? Why are we resorting to painful techniques to control rather than teaching techniques to build?
IYK:
Thank for your long detailed posts. I will have the honour to disagree on some points, but i think your last post was a little to far, the comparation between disciplining a child through potching and shooting him dead is just not the case. Agree or disagree regarding spanking, it’s clear that those advocating spanking are just seeking the same positive outcome in the child that you described, and they believe that sometimes when used sparingly it’s the right approach
Neither drugs nor assault is necessary.
If he does have a adhd one of the biggest problems with some one with adhd is the lack of internal motivation most people can do things just for the sake of making the parents happy but someone with ADHD needs a much higher motivation That’s what boring tasks are almost impossible to do is a very interesting share from “rabbi_daniel_kalish_the-most-successful-people-are-adhd” who explains how this works and according to rabbi kalish this is why ADHD people are always looking for ways to be my michadish making their marriage more exciting making their learning more exciting making their davning feel of more exciting the book praying by fire was written by somebody with ADHD as a tool to make his davning more exciting so If done right with the right partner you can motivate an ADHD person to do almost anything you just need a little bit of creativity and excitement reward programs are awesome especially for kids and even for adults and to the naysayers who say well then you just teaching them to always need rewards that’s like saying to a blind person who needs a stick to walk wow you’re teaching him that he would always need a stick well yes that is the way our brains work and we will always need external motivation the trick is to use the right external motivation and the best lesson you can give over to your child with ADHD is this point how do you use external motivation appropriately good luck
why are people telling others what to do and how to discipline and be mechanech their children. every mamme and tatte may use whichever method they wish, including petch and soap. i think i can say for certain and positive that most mammes will give petch and soap for misbehaving. it is okay, there is nothing wrong with it. lets see here how many mothers hit their kids or will use soap, all mothers who hit r soap please speak up and share your voice and opinion, or husbands speak up for your wives.
No, most mothers don’t hit and soap their kids. But as a 15 year old you probably have no way of knowing that.
Aside from some rabbonim who believe/believed that corporeal punishment is not effective in our society, due to the increasingly irreverent and disrespectful nature of children who grow up in the Western world, are we to refer to chosech shivto sonei b’no as child abuse? Did Rav Wolbe and Rav Pam (the only prominent rabbonim I’m aware of who said to completely cease all patching) refer to it as such? Did they say that if you see a parent or a rebbe hitting a kid the yiddishe way, meaning not in anger, and not severely – which halacha mandates or at the very least allows – you should report them to the authorities as a child abuser?
They did not. They lived Torah. They didn’t take their attitudes and values from Western culture.
I believe that most of the trauma that people present in their adulthood which is attributed to parental or parochial punishment, is when such punishments are meted out in a state of emotional urgency or anger. Halacha dictates that when a parent or rebbe is angry or otherwise emotionally unstable it is strictly forbidden to strike a child.
I have repeated this countless times on several threads on this subject. So many of the comments here are coming from personal opinions, and most are without having been educated and informed on the subject matter. I suggest that before engaging with the keyboard and mouse, first engage with the seforim from the Gedolim of our present and recent generations as well as plenty from even earlier. I hurts me to see the abuse heaped on the posuk in Mishlei, חושך שבטו שונא בנו, as if it directs one to teach via discipline. This is a severe corruption. It is clearly worded to place discipline as a last resort. It also doesn’t specifically instruct to hit, and claiming it does is attributing something to Shlomo Hamelech that he never said. It is sad that we have allowed our chinuch to become founded on discipline rather than teaching. It is sad that we have made about compliance, not the transmission of values. It is sad that our yeshivos now base their success on volumes of data transmitted in place of the transmission of values of our Avos. Just look at the use of tests that translate to grades, which are nothing more than the retrieval of memory, with little to no attention paid to the effort and progress of each individual student. Tests reflect more about the success of the teacher than the progress of the students. It is sad.
The potch has its place. It is there to control behavior, not to teach. Now remind us all of the role of the rebbe. If it is about control, you are describing a boot camp, not a yeshiva. When chinuch deteriorates to the management of the class via discipline, we have a rebbe or teacher that occupies the wrong job, a menahel who is clueless about real Torah chinuch, or a curriculum whose value is simply the paper it is on.
This is not about secular education. It is Torah chinuch. Check your Judaica/seforim store for the publications on chinuch from Torah leaders. Then tell us about how and when to use discipline.
opinion still stays opinion. i see what people write here, but i still did not read here something that will really make me change my strict way of discipline, or lower my amount of petch and punishments, no one here proved anything or mentioned anything with the way i take care of my kids. and no matter what people will say, i still think i am right with how i deal with things at home, and now in the summer when my kids go off t camps i fell much less stress at home, after all, my teenage kids are missing and all the behavior is now on their camps staff tp take care of
Eishis Chail: I agree firmly with your opinion on spanking children, of course when done sparingly and with yishuv hadaas. I got spanked by my father only 3-4 times in all my childhood, but that was as they call it “gezunte petsh” and was enough for a long time. If petsh have to be repeated every Monday and Thursday then it is not working and only creates a bad atmospher at home. Better give a carefully hard spanking once in 2 years for a real misdemeanor than giving small spankings 4 times a month. Some of my kids got 1-2 times petsh and some did never get to a reason to get petsh and thats because they knew about the possibility of petsh, as one of the previous gedolim said that the kantshik in cheder is hanging on the wall mainly for the children to know that it could be used when neccesary, and so much to use it. About your suggestion that most mammes give petch, unfortunately as far i know very few mammes today have the courage to potch their kids properly and even fathers are getting fewer and fewer. Maybe they give some times here and there a small petshel for small kids for foolish or dangerous things they do, but most kids older then 5 years old do not know what petsh means, as far i know, maybe i am mistaken.
TLIK: The passuk “Chosech shivto” is “kipshuto”, look in the meforshim, look at other psukim in Mishlei like “Atu beshevet takenu vnafhsho mishoil tatzil”, look in Shevet Halevi Chelek 11 pshat in the posuk, and look also in shichas Lubavitcher Rebbe 19 Kislev 5731.
AAQ: Come on, generations of ordinary jews raised children according to tora guidance including petsh, the tora has trusted parents with their children, i am not answering to extremists, i am reffering to ordinary parents
yes johnklets. i agree with you. petch is the way to raise kids if done normally
seriously?? specific?? do you think that any rebbi, rosh yeshiva etc. will slap his kid in front of the entire shul so everyone can see and let you know?? i know for a fact that my rav is an extremist when it comes to chinuch, he raises his kids with yiras shamayim and obviously with petch when neccesary. i hear from my husband how the rav will yell in shul on his kids or punish them. he suggests parents to potch when neccesary, he is a chasidic rav in a certain kehilla.
i think your comment is not so derech eretz toward rabbanim and talmidei chachamim.
also a parent has a right in disciplining her kids without consulting her rav etc. taking in consideration that its just normal discipline which 99.99 percent of parents do, a potch can be normal discipline if not done cruelly like my mother who would give me gezunte petch as a teenager for the smallest thing. i had no therapy and had to torture myself and fight for my life to grow up normal and self confident as i am. i had a miracle that i am normal.
anyway, just whatever you do to your kids make sure that its really out of love and care and chas veshalom punish with happiness. i always show my kids my face as sad and half crying that i have no choice and potch them, they see how i hate to do it and know its just out of love and i have no choice and give them that potch so they behave. REMEMBER: NEVER EVER GIVE GEZUNTE PETCH EVEN IF YOU SHOW THEM HOW YOU CRY AND HATE TO HIT THEM, I SUFFERED MISSERABLY FROM MY MOTHERS GEZUNTE PETCH
You have no way of knowing the authenticity of a random story from an anonymous poster about an unnamed rabbi that sounds very atypical.
our rav will not hit his kids, he will just yell at them or punish etc. i am not just an anonymous poster. i am a poster just like you and everyone else. i was mistreated, correct, but i will never do it to my kids, i do believe in potching but only regular petch and not for small crimes and not done with happiness, only done with a broken heart
AAQ: It is not a negative trait, chas veshalom to say so on someone who raises his/her kids al pi torah. Kids who are not spanked when it is necessary are deprived from their right just as kids who are potched to much.
CS – who ever said that?
In the biography (muller) of the brisker rov ztvk”l, a story is recorded of a motzi shabbos when rav berel ztvk”l was a child, and did melacha before saying boruch hamavdil – the rov said “you were oiver a derabonon” and gave him a petch
Oy… potching being taken to be the “center of education” is like saying that sour candies are the staple of a child’s diet
My point was that the Rov held it was ok to potch – I made no claim as to what he holds about frequency, circumstances, degree, or anything else.
It should go without saying that potching is very rare for any semi-competent parent, and is the “center of education” only in horrifyingly abusive homes.
I see this is a hot topic…
I think we should all daven/pray:
That those who have experienced abuse should not pass their pain on to others, especially children. We should pray that those who haven’t experienced abuse should not cause a negative pattern of abuse to start. We should pray that those who have been abused should be given the strength to seek help escaping the pains that they experience daily and go to therapy. That they put in the work to get better and heal despite all the name calling and repercussions that come along with being recognized as a victim of abuse. We should pray that no matter how hard it is, they should have the resilience and support to persist in therapy with the attitude of being in it to win it, no matter how long it takes. We should pray that all who’ve been abused should become successful despite all harm that’s been done to them. Finally, we should pray abusers realize what they do is wrong and should also seek help.so you are trying to convince me that what i do is wrong
When it says “Chosech Shivto” holding back his stick, I have a different understanding. The Avos were shepherds. Did they use their stick to hit the sheep, or to guide them?
eishes chayil:
I have repeated this here and other threads on this subject. There is a place for a potch. However, the determination of when it is appropriate is more complex than it ever was. Instead of attempting to mimic what he know or hear about of past generations, we need to see what the gedolim of our times tell us of the guidelines.
Earlier, there was quote about the Brisker Rov. Let’s see what he stated. I report this from a verbatim quote published in a reputable seferon chinuch. The Rov said that the first potch might be permissible under a list of conditions. The second potch is an issur min haTorah of assault. The Gemora instructs this potch to not be with a strap but with a shoelace. It is clear that the potch is not there to punish but to teach. If we cause pain to a child or talmid, are we teaching, or are we establishing the fear to force compliance. The latter might help control the classroom, but it is dishonest to call that teaching.
With all the opinions here, I still ignore all of them, in total deference to the guidance from so many Gedolim of the current and recent generations. The material from their guidance is accessible. We cannot expect a positive result from running our homes and yeshivos like a boot camp. Teach them. Model for them. It works.
When it says “atu bishevet takenu” as well as “chosech shivto”, these words were coming from a Shepherd. A shepherd has both a hooked staff and a rod/club. Both are not used to hit the sheep. One is used for hitting the wolves that come to eat the sheep. The other uses of those shepherds tools are for redirecting sheep, but I stress, not by hitting them.
IYK – maybe melacha on shabbos means moving furniture….
We have a mesorah for pshat. Rashi first and foremost – I’d suggest learning the actual pasuk with the meforshim before possibly entering the category of megaleh ponim batorah shelo kahalacha.
I said what needs to be said. I will be leaving this forum again for a while. Those who are in an abusive situation, I pray you can gather the strength to go to the cops and report them instead of becoming self destructive. Just because someone thinks they know true Torah and Mesorah or preaches like they do, doesn’t mean there isn’t a better way to live that would get support from the creator of all. Especially when they cannot show you love and care in the ways of shalom.
TLIK -“There is a place for a potch”
The only time that I Know it’s Ok, is when it’s a last Resort.
Eg. – Kid hitting another kid & won’t Stop.
Running across a street, despite trying to hold him/her back.The ones that say it’s Ok once in awhile are Wrong. (Except with those or very similar cases – I just posted.)
Times have changed & the Gedolim say those Chazals that say Corporal Punishment is Ok – doesn’t Apply nowadays!
The ones that Keep harping on that, are Megaleh Ponim She’lo K’halacha!I have to come back here just to mention a few things.
I apologize if I offended anyone. I understand this topic because of my past of which I’d done some things I’m not proud of. I also understand that my actions were really only reactions, emotions that controlled me. Even now, I still struggle with control of internal emotions. I hope all can understand that what was done to them was wrong, but being aware there is a problem is half the solution. A quarter of the solution is identifying what the problem is. The remaining quarter of the solution is changing/committing to doing things better than before.
I had many negative experiences. What I did notice is that when one cries, they lose a lot of energy. This is why I think short bits of exercise might be an alternative to the hitting that takes place. It can be fun as well, especially if everyone does it to improve the strength and health of the body that we need to live and learn. Once again, thanks YWN.
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