Medicating vs Spanking

Spanking is actualy a medicin, it just hurts but it is sometimes the best medication for naughty children.

in our mekorot we do not find anything about mouth soaping, you can also put pepper or salt, you can tell the child to put his hands on his head for long minutes etc. but i think nothing is so effective and at the same time the least abusive then simple spanking

Spanking a child who truly needs to be medicated is like spanking a child who has diabetes. It’s cruel and abusive, and absolutely ineffective.

If you want to help a child, give him medication if he needs it.

As a Rebbe, I am loathe to ask parents to have their son evaluated for medication. I know that as a parent, it would be a difficult phone call to receive.

I have seen the downside of medication in some of my students over the years. I know that overmedicating can completely turn off a child’s personality and make him somewhat of a robot. Nobody wants this, and doctors, parents, teachers and Rebbeim work together to find the right dose.

Even so, I can tell you that the downside is far outweighed by the benefits.

Schools, teachers, and Rebbeim do not want to medicate students who don’t need it, and they would be unable to do so in any case. The diagnosis of ADHD is based on a very large amount of data that is collected from parents, Rebbeim, teachers, therapists, and the child himself.

Talk to a psychologist. You’ll find out that there is no real benefit to a child to withhold necessary medication from him.

A school shouldn’t TELL a parent to medicate their child.
They should provide information about the difficulty managing the child’s behavior and any helpful details. If it’s occurring throughout the day or during specific subjects it may point to academic difficulty rather than a focusing issue, if it’s during recess and with peers it indicates issues with social skills. The more detailed the information the easier it will be for parents to give a snapshot of the problem to an evaluating professional.
Smacking a child for non-compliance is a leap towards trying to find a solution without actually knowing what the problem is. That kind of a “solution” can actually exacerbate the problem and cause mistrust with the child. Misbehavior is a call for help. The help a child needs might be better boundaries but not in the form of physical harm.
It should start with getting to the source of why a child is acting out in order to find a solution to rectify the problem.

As a thread about spanking, I find the comments here quite rational, regardless of whether i agree or not. I commend the commenters here for maintaining the focus.

Let’s repeat something stated in a few of the comments here. We need to match a solution to the problem if we expect a useful outcome. To fix a broken arm by amputating it sounds quite rash, and it is unlikely that we would recommend it. But once no longer part of the body, one would to need to fix the fracture anymore. If our focus is that limited, we can use any intervention we wished. we might eliminate the problematic behavior. But we might lose the child. And that doesn’t really solve the problem.

There are kids that need medication. Treating that with bandaids will not correct anything. Petch provide a very limited window of effectiveness, and it has its place. The misappropriated potch is an assault on a child, and its a greater problem than most things kids can do.

It is likewise difficult to address “medication” as a single approach. There are quite a few psychiatric diagnoses. The ones that are helped by medication are quite diverse, and different meds help for different conditions. The stimulants used for ADHD disorders may likely clash for others without those disorders. Anti-anxiety meds might help for certain kids, but might be contraindicated for the ADHD cases. Professional evaluation is critical, and this should be done by someone with specific expertise in child psychiatry or similar specialists. Schools can contribute info, but should never utter the common phrase, “Medicate your child or else keep him/her home.” That typically leads to parents twisting the arms of pediatricians who are often undertrained for child psychiatry to prescribe meds.

Schools that insure their faculty have solid training in discipline and knowing when to reach out for professional consultation are to be commended. It’s as important to writing good curriculum.

Spanking an innocent child is wrong

Medicating a regular innocent child is wrong

Spanking a child who needs medication is wrong

Medicating a child who needs a spankin is wrong

So what is the question medicating vs. spanking ?

I think the answer is that some parents believe that spanking is Always wrong, and they will rather use medication on their child then spanking, in my opinion thats child abuse

You are not right. There are certain circumstances where a spanking is necessary and it is not the fault of the parent pr teacher.

catch yourself – so true. And so refreshing to read your posts.

johnklets:

Here is where you’re wrong. Precisely who makes the determination that “spanking is necessary” in a certain circumstance? We are seriously deficient in being able to put our own emotions to the side, and to exercise a true, Torah dictated chinuch approach. First, who has the training needed to make appropriate application of discipline? Frighteningly few. It is rare that a yeshiva demands such training prior to being assigned a classroom. Even many menahalim are undertrained in that (although Torah Umesorah has led the way to reducing that).

Next, repetitive of my earlier comment, everything, absolutely everything done with a student in yeshiva must be educational. Punishments that do not teach have no place in chinuch. Teaching to follow school’s rules is not the mission of chinuch. In fact, downloading Torah data isn’t either. It is the teaching of the basic skills of learning (how to learn), and the building of a connection to Torah (ahavas haTorah). The actual teaching of Chumash, Gemora, Halacha, etc. is just the vehicle to achieve the missions. A talmid that scores a 65 on a Chumash or Gemora test probably reflects a melamed that fared poorly in teaching him, not a talmid that didn’t care to learn. No, talmidim are not identical, and the cookie cutter stuff is not Torah based. Rather חנוך לנער על פי דרכו, oft repeated, but less often obeyed.

I’m not attacking yeshivos. They have a mammoth task, complicated by cramming more students in a classroom than true chinuch that allows for על פי דרכו. Hence we have curricula that push agendas based mostly on volume of material taught. Challenge from a difficult student is seen as a threat to the rebbe’s authority. That is a tragic misinterpretation most of the time. It’s more often a cry for help and connection. But staffing to cope with the sheer numbers of talmidim is limited, and everyone suffers.

The point of medication vs. spanking as a false dichotomy is extremely valid. Can anyone tell me whether Rabbi Trenk ever asked this question?

You remind me of an old poster NC. Any relation?

TLIK

Al pi tora has every parent and every melamed the right of potching within the right rules given in shulchan aruch, you can look it up. Maybe you try to say that today is different, but it seems you think that corporal punishment has not a place in chinuch at all, that might be right in modern psygology, but not al pi tora

honestly i think medicating or spanking the adults is fine with me. my point is just because someone has a “position of authority” doesn’t mean their bad middos isn’t the fault of problem. as they say to drive a car you need to pass a test but anyone can have Kids!

I haven’t researched the issue, so I don’t have hard statistics. In my experience, and based on conversations with the professionals that I know (psychologists and social workers), the incidence of inappropriately medicating is currently extremely low.

Usually, the decision to medicate is done either in conjunction with a professional such as a psychologist or social worker or at their recommendation. So using them as proof that there isn’t inappropriate medicating is like asking the wolf to guard the chicken coop.

That is not to say they are always or even usually wrong to medicate, only that you cannot use their words to substantiate your claim.

flowers:

There are medical professionals and there are medical professionals. The ones I know are ethical, professional, and dedicated to their work. They receive the same fee for the office visit whether they prescribe or not. They are fully aware that medication needs to be required before prescribing. They are cognizant that all medications have side effects, and they are also aware that the knee jerk reactions to prescribe are sometimes bad guesses. Those are the ones I know. They have established the diagnosis by evaluation before intervening. Perhaps you are acquainted with those that lack these basics in professionalism and medical ethics. I do feel bad for you, and hope you receive your medical care from the ethical and moral ones I described above.

It is legendary that health care professionals, especially in the mental health field, differ in their diagnostic impressions. I have yet to meet a psychiatrist who prescribes solely on the assessment of any other professional. Of course, the referring therapist has input. But to accuse the physicians of not doing their own evaluation is a serious allegation. Again, there may some that are lacking in their professional ethics. Those are the exceptions.

Lastly, it is true that psychiatrists will focus on the need for medication, and not concentrate on the parental roles. It is assumed that this was addressed earlier. But they are not ignorant of it. Have you ever made a referral to a psychiatrist? What does this doctor ask you while accepting the referral? If he/she is worth their salt, they ask all these questions.

I should call attention to your insinuation that the “parents caused it”. That’s remnants of the Freudian approach to psychology. While the concept has merit, it is overblown to drastic degrees. It comes from the drive to blame someone else for the problem instead of addressing the individual and helping them in whatever manner is effective to overcome the problem.

If kids act bad don’t give them kugel that Shabbos….simple solution.

My kid got a scrape on the knee. I spanked him and the scrape healed in a few days.

All of the above.

No need for so much soap. After one moutwashing it will usualy help for months and even years, though i am not a fan of mouthwashing, instead a good quick spanking will be most effective for nivul peh, and will also help for months and even years