Mechitzah question

Why can’t you simply go to the shul with the too short mechitza, and then throw garbage and dogs and cats over the mechitza (which should not be hard since it is so short) until there is nobody left on the other side?

Alternatively, you could burn the whole thing down, and then when it’s rebuilt politely ask for a higher mechitza.

Alternatively, you could bring your own mechitza with you, and stand inside it. I’d recommend using a large plastic bag (not see through).

Alternatively, you could come in the middle of the night, and bring a shovel, and dig up the floor several inches until the mechitza which is left is now tall enough.

Alternatively, you could subtly start putting seforim on top of the mechitza, and keep adding one or two siddurim every minute and maybe a gemara sota or two, until by the time you get to yishtabach it will be tall enough.

Alternatively, you could line up the bottles for the kiddush club on top, and then you won’t even need to leave shul for kiddush club and it will be high enough.

So you see, there are so many good alternatives, and I have to choose one of your ridiculous ideas?

The required height for a mechitzah is a machloket poskim. Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin z’tz’l, a contemporary of similar stature to Rav Moshe z’tz’l, held that ten tefachim was l’chatchila the required height. (He also required that the mechitzah be rigid, which would pasul many much more opaque mechitzot.) This height is based on all of Chazal’s discussions in Eruvim and Sukkot so this is a very well grounded psak. The oldest Orthodox synagogue in America, Shearith Israel, has mechitzot that ten tefachim high. That congregation is notorious for refusing to countenance even slight departures from their long-established nusachim.

Popa Bar Abba-

Why can’t you simply go to the shul with the too short mechitza, and then throw garbage and dogs and cats over the mechitza (which should not be hard since it is so short) until there is nobody left on the other side? Tzar Balei Chaim

Alternatively, you could burn the whole thing down, and then when it’s rebuilt politely ask for a higher mechitza. Then where will he daven till then

Alternatively, you could bring your own mechitza with you, and stand inside it. I’d recommend using a large plastic bag (not see through. What about on Shabbos

Alternatively, you could come in the middle of the night, and bring a shovel, and dig up the floor several inches until the mechitza which is left is now tall enough. Its a concrete floor

Alternatively, you could subtly start putting seforim on top of the mechitza, and keep adding one or two siddurim every minute and maybe a gemara sota or two, until by the time you get to yishtabach it will be tall enough. And till yishtabach?

Alternatively, you could line up the bottles for the kiddush club on top, and then you won’t even need to leave shul for kiddush club and it will be high enough. That shul doesnt allow kiddush clubs

So you see, there are no good alternatives

Rav Moshe also has a teshuva regarding davening b’yichidus (it’s not so poshut to do). If it’s ok according to some standards and you see yourself capable of not being distracted, i.e. by davening by the wall or something of the sort, I would think you should still daven in the shul. That said, I haven’t a clue how the shul looks, nor have I really learned much about mechitzas, so this is more or less coming from my stomach 🙂

The oldest Orthodox synagogue in America, Shearith Israel, has mechitzot that ten tefachim high. That congregation is notorious for refusing to countenance even slight departures from their long-established nusachim.

The balcony itself is the Mechitza, the railing is just for safety.

charliehall and rationalfrummie- EXACTLY. If you look at the gemoro in sukkos ,you clearly see that it was a (late?) introduction of “separation” in the SECOND bais hamikdosh. The only real aource for any separationof the sexes (note- separation, NOT mechitza) is from Novih (Zecharay 12).Look at gemoro sukkot 51B and 52A. This is why a balcony is enough- WITHOUT even having any railing(mechtiza0 at all. the separation aspect is the key. R”Moshe zz’l (if my memory is correct) paskens that a mechitza of ten tefochim (appx three feet0 s enough to mark that separation ,as we see in hilchos shabbos. The introduction of a mechitza is only for tefilah “me’ikar hadin”.Tthere are many mentions for the separation of the sexes in other settings but it is only for separation-not a mechitza- and it is -at best- a minhag.

Torah613,

As Daas Yochid said, the requirement of a mechitza is not because of “looking” it is because of kalos rosh (i.e. improper conversation). An all glass mechitza is sufficient according to R’Moshe (for the din of mechitza). On the other hand the mechitza has to be high enough to prevent easy conversation.

Rabbiofberlin

Your tone doesn’t deserve a reply to be honest. You can see that it is all in the Teshuva he says 18 tefachim which are 3 amos. The Tzitz eliezer holds 3 and a half amos are required. And halachafortoday is a massive talmud chacham and you should have respect for him as well as of course your bar plugta Rav Moshe ztzal who you so vehemently argue with.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/weekly_torah.php?id=449

The Height of a Mechitza

Horav Moshe Feinstein zt”l writes that a mechitza should go up to shoulder height, in accordance with his opinion that the mechitza is to prevent men and women from mingling.(14) Ideally, Horav Moshe says the mechitza should be at least 66 inches high (17-18 tefachim).(15) However, if the mechitza is only 60 inches high, one should not rebuke those relying on it.(16) A yira shomayim should try to make a mechitza high enough that it goes over the heads of the women.(17) If one raises the level of the women’s section making the height of the mechitza less than 60 inches, it is unacceptable.(18) A shul that does not want to make a mechitza should have the women and men sit on separate sides of the shul. (19)

Mechitza Made Of Glass etc.

One should not use glass as part of a mechitza if by doing so one would be able to see the women during davening. Such a mechitza does not adhere to what a mechitza is meant to be.(20) According to Horav Moshe Feinstein zt”l using glass would be permitted.(21) A mechitza that has a sizable gap towards the top is not valid. If a mechitza has tiny holes in it the mechitza is still valid.(22)

Footnotes

(14)Igros Moshe ibid. (15) Igros Moshe ibid, 1:40, 1:42, O.C. 4:31, Srdei Eish 1:8:page 19-20. The Tzitz Eliezer 20:7 says the height should be around 3 and 1/2 amos. (16) Igros Moshe ibid, O.C. 3:23, O.C. 4:30, 4:31, 32 (17) Igros Moshe ibid. 1:40, O.C. 3:23, Yisroel Kedoshim page 72. (18) Igros Moshe O.C. 3:23, 3:24, O.C. 4:29. (19) Igros Moshe O.C. 1:44. If one finds himself in an Orthodox Shul without a proper mechitza he may daven there if there are no women present at the time of davening (Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita). (20) Shevet Ha’Levi 1:29. (21) Refer to Igros Moshe O.C. 1:43, 3:23. Only if the women are dressed properly. (22) Igros Moshe O.C. 4:32, Teshuvos V’hanhugos 1:162, Piskei Teshuvos 151:4, see Oz Nedberu 13:67.

Copyright 2013 Halachically Speaking

A lot of the argument here is misunderstanding.

According to R’Moshe the purpose of the mechitza is to avoid kalas rosh (mingling, improper conversation, etc.). A balcony obviously avoids the problem because there can be no interactions between the genders.

Kalas rosh (certainly during prayer) is an issur d’oraisa. If the people could be trusted to not engage in kalas rosh, then no mechitza would be necessary. During the second Bais Hamikdosh it was noted that there were incidences of kalas rosh during Yom Tov in the Bais Hamikdosh. They therefore instituted a balcony during those times.

In other words the institution of a mechitza is d’rabbanan but the problem it is meant to prevent is d’oraisa (a fairly common occurrence). If one is confident that there will be no kalas rosh then the only problem davening in a shul without a mechitza is d’rabbanan.

Rationalist:

So are you asking

a) whether we follow Rav Moshe’s psak b’dieved, or

b) whether it is better to daven in a shul without a mechitza or at home?

In either event, I still recommend my alternatives above.

Ok. You might have just asked then about a shul that has no mechitza but they sit separately (see Igros Moshe OC1:44).

R’ Moshe’s proof that it’s D’Oraisa is quite interesting. Take a look at OC 1:26, I believe. That being said, there are major Poskim that held 10 Tefachim. It’s difficult to tell a Shul they are doing something wrong by relying on those Poskim. Whether or not you should personally Daven there is another matter entirely.

It was 1:39, my bad. And ROB, while R’ Moshe’s fact that it is a Din D’Oraisa is a big Chiddush, it makes a lot of sense and R’ Moshe is certainly capable of having Chiddushim. You can ask questions on it, but you cannot dismiss it out of hand. Also, if you want to hold that you need 10 Tefachim and a real Havdalas Reshus for Mechitzah, then you are Chayav Misah for making a Mechitzah of any type on Shabbos. If you want to hold that way, Takanascha Zo Hi Kalkalascha.

WIY- I had ther opportunity to quickly review all of R’Moshe’s teshuvos on mechitza (in chelek 1, OH”CH,chelek 3 OH”CH and chelek 4 OH”CH”) and ,indeed you were right in insisting that R”Mmoshe zz’l requires sixty inches and, preferably,even higher so as not to see the women. So, you are right as far as R’Moshe zz’l. Although, clearly, there are and were Poskim who allowed ten “tefochim”. There are a number of questions that R’Moshe himself tries to answer in his latter teshuvos. The primary question I would have is the fact ,that if you say that a mechitzah is up to the shoulders, how can it be 18 tefochim? A man’s height-as per mishneh and gemoro- is three amos (see mikveh)which is 18 tefochim so, ‘baal korcho’, up to the shoulders is significantly less? R’Moshe (in chelek 3) tries to answer but I did not fully understand his answer.

R”Moshe insists that it is ‘mideoraisa” and he has a fairly complicated way of deducing this from gemoro sukkos. There are many problems with this approach but this forum is too restricted to go into detail.

Sam2-Thanks for your stimulating questions. I’ll answer the second one first. In shulchan aruch,hilchos shabbos,315,se’if 1, you will see that the Remo deals with a “mechitza’ (curtain) that is put up on shabbos for “tznius” (BTW- this actually supports some of those who said that a mechitza is needed on any occasion) and the Remo is “mattir’ because it is only a “ohel ara’i” So, your supposition that thsi ould be a “hiyun Missah’ is not supported by the Remo and halacha.

As far as your point about mechitza being d’oraisa. Certainly, R” Moshe zz’l can be “mechadesh” (bring anew) any “sevoro” (logic) he wants. The questions on his approach are numerous,starting with the fact that-until the end of Bays sheni- there was no separation in the bais hamikdosh. How would that be possible if it is ‘mideoraisa”? Secondly ,we find that there were women within the enclosure of the bais hamikdosh- see Chana- and how did they get there? R’Moshe deals with some of these questions but, in truth, there is no need to base it on d’oraisa- a “dina degemoro” is pretty strong to.

Rational: It is incredibly, incredibly difficult to ever even advise anyone to Pasken against Rav Moshe in America. I once mentioned to my Rabbi (and he said that what I said makes a lot of sense) that the only time where it would be okay to use a 10 Tefach Mechitzah would be if the Shul had had a MInhag to use such a Mechitzah from before the time when Rav Moshe was the Posek HaDor. But I can’t see a reason that a new Shul nowadays would be allowed to go against Rav Moshe unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances. (e.g. I know of an old age home that relies on a 10 Tefach Mechitzah because the vast majority of women there are in wheelchairs and they want the Mechitzah low enough that the women don’t feel completely boxed in.)

rob: Chas V’shalom. R’ Moshe is still the Mara D’asra of America and will probably remain that way until someone like him arises or there are major sociological shifts that require someone new to address them. I guarantee you that you don’t dismiss his Kulos out of hand. And most of his Chumros that are currently ignored weren’t held like him in his lifetime either (ask R’ Schachter some time why we’re allowed to go against him in Eruvin). It takes incredibly broad shoulders to go against him on anything, and it is nearly impossible to argue on him on something that the Tzibbor was Noheg like him. Everyone, with a tiny number of exceptions, accepted his 18 Tefach minimum Mechitzah.

Sam2- and DaasYochid: Hopefully, you don’t misunderstand me. I was around when R’Moshe zz’l indeed was the Possek of klal ysroel in America, witnessing his piskei din and the fierce opposition he created at times (just research the matter of artifical insemination) and you are right that the general population accepted his piskei halocho. Yet, there were other Poskim who had their own views, “bein lekuloh” bein lechumroh”. In the same way one cannot ignore-CH”V- R’Moshe’s influence on psak this past half century, in the same way, one should not dismiss the other Poskim, if need be. Do remember that this forum is for discussion only, not for psak. When one comes to psak, I would always consult R”moshe zz’l .

BTW_ I do not know what Rav Belsky shelita thinks about the eiruv. Enlighten me.

So two Boro Park guys have been learning bechavrusa for over a decade, when one of them finally makes a confession.

“I’m a goy,” he says, “I got interested in your religion about ten years back and I figured the only way to really find out about Judaism is to live in your midst. So I’ve been passing myself off as one of you, and now I want to be magayer.”

His chavrusa is shocked. “My friend, we’ve been learning together all this time,” he says. “You know as much Torah by now as I do. Surely you remember learning Goy SheShovas Chayav Misah? A goy who keeps Shabbos earns the death penalty.”

“Of course I know that,” the goy responds. “So every Shabbos afternoon when I came here to learn with you I would bring my house keys with me as I walked through the streets.”

“But… but… that doesn’t help! There is an eruv here in Boro Park! So you are still Chayav Misah!”

“Not to worry, friend. I hold like Rav Belsky.”