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I think this is different than Ratz Ba’erev Shabbos, since over here we would say, Adam Muad Leolam.
In the olden days, at a Shabbos meal they would speak Torah and become elevated and uplifted through the Avoda of eating. Nowadays we just enjoy the food. Today, eating a meal is disgracing the Shabbos. Just grab a bite and run back to Shul.
Sam: Did the rema then expect you to go around breaking stuff on purim without being drunk?
PBA: His Makor is jousting at weddings. Sometimes people do things that can cause damage Mitoch Simcha. You can be sober and dancing strong and accidentally rip someone’s shirt. That happens often enough.
As I understand it, the halacha is that one should not drink, or drink more than usual, on Purim if it will cause you to neglect any mitzvah.
When you drink a lot or get drunk on purim, has it ever influenced you to miss davening times, daven while drunk, daven without kavanah, derive enjoyment from looking at a woman who isn’t you’re wife, drive while intoxicated (which is of course against the law as well as being inherently dangerous), forget to say a bracha before or after eating, neglect Torah study or shirk your work responsibilities because you’re hungover the next day, etc?
If so, you should have complete clarity and know what you should do: you shouldn’t drink at all, or more than a little.
yytz: “As I understand it…” – Maybe drink a little, then you’ll understand things differently.
We don’t rely on our own “clarity”, however great as we make ourselves out to be. We follow the Gedolim who direct us in this matter as in all other matters of Halachah and Hashkafa. If your Rov, Rosh Yeshiva, Rebbe tells you not to, you must follow him. If he says you should, then you empty all your “clarity” into the closest trash bin. Replace it with the exact amount he tell you to drink!
Sam2: The mekor is not just from plain accidental damages from dancing at a wedding. It’s the damages incurred by mock dueling ???? ????.
Little Froggie, what gadol says what exact amount to drink? Try asking a gadol or rav if you should drink if you know it will probably cause you to neglect some mitzvah — I bet not a single one will tell you to drink in such a case.
the problem with that logic again is what I said before. Allowing our own daas to determine our kiyum hamitzvos (even minhagim) is not a good idea. According to this logic one should not stay up all shavuos night learning because it will detract from ones kavanah in davening and learning the next day. The best thing to do is have a rav who you can go to and ask such shailos.
This is a widely accepted minhag that to my understanding has been practiced for generations and that is not something to tread on lightly.
jbaldy22,
This is a widely accepted minhag that to my understanding has been practiced for generations and that is not something to tread on lightly.
I agree with you. Perhaps we can all agree, however, that there is no minhag for public drunkenness or dangerous behavior on Purim? Those issues can certainly be addressed without throwing away the minhag of drinking on Purim.
LF: He’s talking about jousting. It’s clear. And that is even less than accidental because you know when you start that you could be damaged. So it’s K’ilu you’re consenting and saying that “I make a T’nai that I won’t charge you for any damage incurred.” It’s enough of a Chiddush that it’s spread to any damage Mitoch Simchas Purim. How much further are you trying to extend it?
Jbaldy: See the Biur Halachah on this at length. yytz is absolutely correct.
Oomis, you are right. These days are different. These days people are very much aware of the danger of driving drunk and it isn’t done. “
I wish that were so. I am PERSONALLY aware of several Yeshivah boys who drove drunk, one had a car accident (as I described previously), causing a tremendous chillul Hashem. Even if they are not driving, the levels of alcohol intoxication can be lethal, and many a Hatzolah member has been called away from his own Purim Seudah to rush a dangerously inebriated bochur to the hospital. That is completely unacceptable and negates any aspect of the mitzvah. I can guarantee you, too many of them are NOT drinking l’shem Mitzvah. But if there is a sober driver, then I see nothing so terrible with them being a little buzzed.
yytz:
Welcome to the world. There ARE manhigim that actually dispense and give out amounts of “mitzvas hayom” to their followers, talmidim, chasidim.
As I wrote (over and over) there are different views. As jbaldy wrote, they are not to be tread on so lightly. Each kehilla must follow it’s minhagim. the directives of its own Manhig.
I’m not saying no one should drink, just that the halacha is not to drink if it will cause you to neglect any mitzvos, and that if in one’s experience that has happened, that seems like a clear reason not to drink. Of course one should ask their Rav is there is a doubt about what to do.
Is there a halacha that one should not stay up all night on Shavuos if it would cause you to neglect a mitzvah the next day? I wasn’t aware of that. On second thought, I suppose kavanah in davening is not a big enough issue, since for most people it probably varies so much anyway — perhaps I shouldn’t have put that in my list.
Little Froggie, if the manhigim knew that you would neglect a mitzvah because you drank the amount they were dispensing, would they give it to you anyway? I would think not. And if that’s the case, then wouldn’t it be dishonest not to tell the rav the truth, so that he will know not to dispense it to you?
In my humbelkite I think there’s a difference between not being able to be mekayaim mitzvhos for the short future, and between doing aveiros c”v. The general rule of osaik b’mitzvah applies even to mitzvhos of rabbinic origin, so there’s no need to be concerned about not davening, learning, giving tzadakah etc. As long as one can ascertain he’s not going to do aveiros, bein adam lmakom or lchaveiro, one need only do the current mitzvah at hand. (???, ?????, ????????, ?????). The gadol I’m referring to is one who demands full awareness of Hakadosh Baruch Hu at ALL TIMES, not to EVER lose oneself. Read what I wrote earlier. The Manhig I’m talking about knows each and every one he gives, thoroughly. And I suspect he knows quite well what he’s doing. There are so many stories about it, the place is certainly NOT HERE.
Again, as I wrote (12.57 times), each one must follow the direction of his Manhig.
It’s funny how most people think the Rama is a kula and want to be “machmir” like the S”A. For some people though, the S”A is a kula. They would be yotzei the halachah with the Rama but they want an excuse to get drunk so they are meikil like the S”A.
The fact is, the S”A (I think it’s the S”A) says it best- echad hamarbeh ve’echad hamamit, rak sheyechavein libo lashamayim- it doesn’t matter how much you drink, as long as you are lishmah. If you use drinking on Purim as an avenue to get to higher spiritual levels, and you will not violate any aveiros, then you can and should drink a lot on Purim. But if you are using Purim as an excuse to get drunk and to get wasted, then you are not allowed to be meikil like the S”A because you don’t have the right kavanah, and you are better off being machmir like the Rama.
LF: Well, the Mishnah Berurah disagrees with you. He says even if you miss a T’fillah or Netilas Yadayim you shouldn’t get drunk.
And what Oomis said is absolutely correct. There are hundreds of people who can’t have their own Purim because they spend it saving many lives because people drank too much. I don’t know how they do it.
Also, walk through Meah Shearim this week and check out the Chal’lei Purim Pashgevilin.
It’s an aveirah to get drunk, regardless of which holiday it is. Stop paskening from rebbes that pull out their ad-hoc excuses from the Zohar and other esoteric works. The halacha is the halacha.
The Biur Halacha/Mishna Berura is a shita. There were also a few rabbonim who didn’t stay up shavous night. That doesn’t mean that everyone else is wrong. I am not claiming that those that hold to not get drunk on purim do not have plenty of rishonim and achronim on which to be someich on. I have gone through the sugya of rabba and rav zeira before. I still feel that making such a cheshbon (drinking vs. lost learning) on your own is extremely dangerous.
It’s funny how most people think the Rama is a kula and want to be “machmir” like the S”A. For some people though, the S”A is a kula. They would be yotzei the halachah with the Rama but they want an excuse to get drunk so they are meikil like the S”A.
Well, because if you do like the rema, the mechaber holds you aren’t yotzei. But if you do like the mechaber, everyone holds you are yotzei.
Hence it is a chumrah.
Sam2, and it could be the Mordechai argues on the MB. The Mordechai from the Megilla (according to Rava who holds one must do so).
Again, ???? ???? ?????? each according to his K’hilla. ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????. And one must know himself beforehand AS I WROTE, not to transgress any issurim, or cause anyone damages (which is also an issur). But those who can and listen and follow their Manhigim and do drink – lshem mitzvah, they’re doing mitzvas hayom.
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The fact is, the S”A (I think it’s the S”A) says it best- echad hamarbeh ve’echad hamamit, rak sheyechavein libo lashamayim-
It’s not the Mechaber, who holds to drink a lot, it’s the R’ma, who seems to be legitimizing both shittos (which is why Sam’s chiddush in the p’tur in hezek is wrong, IMO)
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14166&st=&pgnum=323
Hence it is a chumrah.
It is a chumrah in Hilchos Purim, but a kulah in Hilchos Deios.
PBA: That’s not true. If you do like the Mechaber many would hold that, if anything, you accomplished a Mitzvah Haba’ah Ba’Aveirah and you weren’t Yotzei anything.
Lula D’mistifina that it was Apikorsus, I would say a Davar Pashut that the reason the Chachamim over the centuries have not been Moche on drinking on Purim is a similar Cheshbon that the Catholic Church made with Carnival. I can’t say it, because I think that is K’firah, but when that’s what Purim becomes you’ve lost a Yom Tov and created a neo-Pagan holiday.
Lulei d’mistafina that it’s ona’as devorim, I would say something much stronger about the second part of that post than what I will.
The reason the chachomim haven’t been moche against drinking on Purim is because it’s a mitzvah.
my rebbe told us a pretty good rule of thumb: it is a mitzvah to get drunk on purim if you know how to get drunk l’sheim shamayim.
if getting drunk will cause one to be oveir on other mitzvos (ie, bentching: chiyuv d’oraysa. kibud horim: chiyuv d’oraysa. ona’a: chiyuv d’oraysa. you get my drift…) then you cannot get drunk. you can still fulfill the mitzvah by sleeping but you won’t be oveir on countless other mitzvos through it.
v’hameivin, yavin
DY: Don’t pull punches. I said I don’t actually think that (sort of). But the fact that it’s not an immediately illegitimate train of thought should say something scary about what Purim has become. I have spoken to numerous elderly people (Rabbonim and laymen) and every single one has told me that Purim in Europe was nothing like how we drink now. Very few, if any, got plastered the way a large majority of Yeshiva guys do now. Honestly, this sounds like a perfect case that fits the Rupture and Reconstruction theme.
“Getting wasted” is a goyishe concept, and never, ever was considered a mitzvah. There is a mitzvah to drink as part of Purim simcha, to commemorate the involvement of wine in the miracles of Purim. What we observe way too often is that people want to get intoxicated (a fancy word for poisoned), and do not do so out fear and shame for stooping so low. However, Purim is exploited as an excuse, and this becomes their ticket to drunken oblivion. That is nothing to do with fulfilling a mitzvah, and it should be banned and discouraged everywhere. The Rambam was simple in noting that drunkenness and Avodas Hashem are mutually exclusive.
Whoever thinks “getting wasted” is a chumroh is tragically wrong, and is creating halacha to fit his own desires. How shameful.
TLIK, there are definitely those who use Purim as an excuse to do what they would like to do year round.
There are also those who have no desire to get drunk during the year but do so on Purim, for the mitzvah. The gedarim for the mitzvah are subject to machlokes, like much of halacha. Getting extremely drunk is one legitimate shittah, in fact, that of the Mechaber.
Anyone who deligitimizes that shittah “is creating halacha to fit his own desires”. How shameful.
First, a story. I was 14 when my parents, OBM, sent me away to yeshiva. The first Purim in yeshiva, with no supervision, I spent about half an hour that night drinking beer, wine, schnapps and getting good and drunk. I spent the next three hours in the bathroom calling Ralph on the big, white phone, not to mention the incredible hangover I had the next morning. It was an important life lesson and the lesson is one that manifests itself in folklore and physical science (Newton’s Third Law comes to mind) actions have consequences. I still enjoy a l’chaim now and again, I have no trouble with arba kosos or drinking on Purim but I have never again gone beyond the limits of good judgment (not to mention not driving).
As to drinking on Purim: There are Ovdei HaShem and there are menuvalim, even without drinking. For an Oveid HaShem drinking on Purim can intensify his spiritual experience and kavanos. On Purim I have seen these fellows benching b’kol ram with great and intense kavanah. I have seen bachurim in front of the Aron, tears streaming down there faces, saying vidui. Menuvalim, on the other hand, become bigger menuvalim with the diminution of control that drinking causes. But the fact is that they were
menuvalim to start out with.
In our communities, thousands of Jews drink moderately and rejoice l’shem Shamayim on Purim. To say that “we all” need to stop drinking because there are a few menuvalim who can’t control themselves is an insult to those thousands.
I must say that the idea of drinking because Haman drank is poor reasoning. Some added that as a reason, or Netia, to prefer wine. We don’t eat Maror Ad Delo Yada, and not even Matza. And as I said, quoting the Rambam about drinking in general is as relavent as quoting him about working, and then applying it to Shabbos. After all, when he extolls the merit of working he doesn’t exclude Shabbos. (Maybe the bible critics will give us another Rambam.)
@ charliehall
I’ve never gotten drunk on Purim. Never will.
They all say that…
Yes, but Rav Yisroel Salanter would get drunk on purim such that he was lying under the table drunk. And that as soon as they klapped for maariv, he stood up and was as if completely sober.
And there’s a sefer hasaba mislabodka which has a piece on it from on of the alter’s talmidim Rav Dovid Leibowitz (founder of Chofetz Chaim) that talks about the mitzva of getting completely smashed on purim and explains that even though usually getting so drunk is disgusting, it is a mitzva on purim. (I can’t find it online)
DY: Just because there is a legitimate Shittah for something does not mean it should be Paskened by. A strong majority of major Poskim from the last 150 years have said to use the Rama’s Eitzah and not to get totally drunk. Why is that Halachic process ignored here?
And there’s the Maharal that the idea of Ad Delo Yada means that you drink until you aren’t even aware of the reason for Purim.
The Chida describes Purim in Masterdam. On Shushan Purim they danced in the streets. He couldn’t understand, though, why they weren’t afraid to do so.
Not everyone is or can hope to be a Rav Salanter. Most guys who are under the table drunk, are already passed out. And there is never a mitzvah in something that results in a chillul Hashem.
@ charliehall
I’ve never gotten drunk on Purim. Never will.
They all say that…
Actually, I’ve never been drunk… at all.
The Wolf
Sam, I don’t know where you get your information from, but the minhag in yeshivos was to get drunk.
I don’t know where you get your information from, but the minhag in yeshivos was to get drunk.
Sam, this the basic answer I’d give to your question. I’m aware that the mishna berura and it seems the halachic consensus is to not get drunk. But in yeshiva we did, and in my father’s yeshiva they did, and from what I can tell in rav yisroel salanter’s time they did.
in rav yisroel salanter’s time the minimum shiur was to be really drunk !!!!!!!!
When I spoke to R’ Leiman on the subject a couple of years ago he said they got drunk on Purim in the yeshivos in Europe.
DY and PBA: I spoke to several elderly Balabatim in my community, R’ Schachter, R’ Yankelewitz, R’ Hartman (from Ramat Beit Shemesh), R’ Sheinberg ZT”L, R’ Neuwirth ZT”L and others. Kullam K’echad say that, while there were certainly people who got very, very drunk, the overall Mehalach while they were young was nothing like it is in Yeshivos today.
while there were certainly people who got very, very drunk, the overall Mehalach while they were young was nothing like it is in Yeshivos today.
So now we’re not arguing over whether it’s a legitimate mehalach, or halacha l’maaseh, but rather, who, and in what situations, it should be done.
I definitely agree that it’s not for everyone or every situation, and I hope you’ll agree that it is for some people in some situations.
Popa, is this what you’re talking about?
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popa, reminds me of that yeshivah where the students wouldn’t eat at the locals’ places because they were lenient (from a yeshivish perspective) on kosher.
What reminds you of what?
(DY, yes that is! Did you type that whole thing up? Oh my!)
No, of course I didn’t type the whole thing up.
Rosenjcb must be talking about this:
But it was the father who didn’t trust the bad influence, not the yeshiva which didn’t trust the kashrus.
And what reminded him of it?
Torah613’s comment about drinking.
I don’t know how inebriated a person has to be before they are “drunk” but it seems to me that few if anyone here has any issue with responsible adults sitting around a purim suedah and getting inebriated to the point that they mix-up the details of the Purim story.
People have an issue with: (i) people hurting themselves and each other in their drunkeness; (ii) people acting drunk in public.
I don’t see why we can’t have a fulfillment of the mitzvah of simcha on Purim and still make efforts to stop violence and public drunkeness.
Maybe we should have community wide takanos limiting purim drinking to the seudah?
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