- This topic has 101 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
He is mattir elevators as well, no? I didn’t day nobody is mattir, I am pointing out that I think those who asser (or at least some) will likely asser escalators as well.
M’ikor hadin, it would be permitted to ride in a car, bus and subway.
cherrybim: you are correct. As long as you don’t pay, it would be allowed to ride public transport, with the caveat that there could be “maris ayin”. For confirmation of this psak, check the sefer of the Rabbi of Moscow, R”Pinchas Goldschmidt, concerning subway rides in Moscow on Shabbos.
OK perfect. RoB admits that the analogy to trains/subways is correct, so he and DY are in agreement.
NCB, he’s being more machmir than I. Since all poskim AFAIK asser taking trains and buses, according to RoB, elevators and escalators would likewise be universally accepted as assur under all circumstances.
I, on the other hand, while bringing opinions such as the Chelkas Yaakov and Rav Vosner, acknowledge that some poskim are more lenient with Shabbos elevators and allow it (AFAIK, only b’makom tzorech, with different poskim holding of varying degrees of tzorech necessary to permit).
Exactly. Such a pleasure to see frum yidden of varying levels of observance respecting each others beliefs from the extreme machmirim like RoB to the hard-line-religious-leftists like DY.
NevilleChaimberlin: your last words were certainly tongue in cheek but that is OK.
Daas Yochid: To frame the discussion properly- riding on a car or bus or subway is-min hadin- muttor if you don’t have to pay. The problems are “maris ayin” and hence, people do not use public transport nowadays. I don’t see how that translates in an issur for escalators or Shabbos elevators. If you can find it, look in Rabbi Goldschmidt from Moscow’s sefer where he addresses this with a verbal input by R’Moshe Feinstein zz.l
See what the (???? ???? (???? ????? says about trains, and about someone who is mattir it (and his reason):
DY, Rav Neuwirth hedges on the use of Shabbos elevators. In my edition (English, copyright 1989) there’s a footnote saying, “Due to the complicated technicalities involved and the differences of opinion among the authorities, one would be well advised not to use an elevator on Shabbath or Yom Tov without consulting a properly qualified rabbi.” He mattirs escalators with this only this proviso: “One may not use them if they are put into motion by one’s approach.”
Sam2:
I have been told that R’ Schachter and many others are Meikel using a Goy to push the elevator if there is a significant number of stairs. The logic is that it’s a Shvus (Amira L’akum) Dishvus (electricity) BeMakom Oneg Shabbos
Interesting. I had always thought (based mostly on hearsay, not actual sources) that the consensus of the Poskim followed the psak pf the Chazon Ish and R’ Shlomo Zalman, who held electricity to be a problem midi’Oraysa.
There is an escalator in the Great Synagogue of Yerushalayim that is operative every Shabbos and Yom Tov. It goes from the ground main floor all the way up to the top floor of the Ezrat Nashim. Everyone uses it as there are about 4 or 5 flights of stairs to get up to the Ezrat Nashim. It is on continuously during the times of davening.
Hope this info helps.
Sam2, which Rav Schachter? Fischel or Hershel?
?????? ??? ??? ?’ ?’ ?”? ??’ ?”?
??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????, ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????. ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????
I don’t see why an escalator would be better.
DaasYochid: You keep on quoting Poskim who actually admit that there is no issur but only because of “zilzul Shabbos”. one should not use an elevator (or a train, as per “SHoeil Umeishiv”). Fine. You can follow that chumroh and no one will complain. However, “me-ikar hadin” there is no issur so let the people who do use Shabbos elevators or escalators follow their Rov’s practice.
I don’t know if their rabbonim are being mattir even not b’makom tzorech gadol, but if they are, those much greater than I or them have called it extreme ????.
rabbiofberlin: As long as you don’t pay, it would be allowed to ride public transport, with the caveat that there could be “maris ayin”.
What would be the “maris ayin”? Are tokens or metro cards like money or are they proof of advance-payments?
cherrybim:In many cities in Europe, subway (and buses) are accessed by people without any payment-whether by token or card. One needs to have a proof of payment, such as a weekly or monthly pass. Hence, one can walk onto a subway train without any payment. I was made aware of this question by Rav Goldschmidt of Moscow, where people lived far away from the shuls and had to take public transport to get to shul. If my memory serves me right, he had a (verbal) psak from R’Moshe zz’l that it was much better for shul-goers to use public transport that come by car ( many problems of real chilul shabos). However, the one caveat was that, once one is seen on such train, it is not clear whether he/she was going to shul or just shopping. Hence, the “maris ayin”. I’ll try to find the sefer and quote accurate point.
I have no idea how reliable Rabbi Goldschmidt may or may not be, but that doesn’t make sense.
If I walk in the street, is it maris ayin because someone might think I’m going shopping? Of course not, so why is a train different in that regard?
That’s aside from the issue of the card being muktzeh at least according to some poskim.
ROB,
He was talking about frum people, or non frum who were going to come either way, so coming by public transport is better?
Are you sure if it is so distant that there is no problem of tchum?
Rav Moshe (IM YD 1:44) says that it is a zilzul of Shabbat and is prohibited even for a mitzva. Rav Ovadia (Yehaveh Da’at 6:16) concurs. Now it should definitely be prohibited a smart cards are used. An escalator that is constantly running, however, should be like a Shabbbat elevator. Maybe even easier as everyone sees that it is constantly running. these are different as the consensus is that no Torah prohibition is violated. Rav Shlomo Zalman reported even said that there is no prohibition at all (except for turning on incandescent lights) but the minhag is to be machmir. Moreover, riding on buses and trains is an egregiously weekday activity not in keeping with the sanctity of Shabbat. BTW, in Israel there is a motorized buggy called a kalnoa. For disabled or elderly people there is a Shabbat attachment that runs it on gramma. There is one man in my community who uses it and another whose Fillipino aide drives one without the attachment (so far as I know as it does not have the sign “mitkan Shabbat”).
An escalator that is constantly running, however, should be like a Shabbbat elevator.
Which many, if not the vast majority of, poskim say should not be used unless in case of great need.
Maybe even easier as everyone sees that it is constantly running.
Most Shabbos elevators I’ve seen have a clear sign that they are Shabbos Elevators, so I don’t think they are any worse regarding maris ayin.
As you seem to agree, Avi, we can’t get out of the zilzul Shabbos issue, no matter which technology is employed.
Daas Yochid: If you walk in the street, it is normal activity on any day. Unless you are going somewhere very specifically, you would not use public transport. When you use public transport, you are going to work or shopping. It I very unlikely that you would just take a “stroll” on the trains! As you are very adept at finding sources in HebrewBooks, maybe you can look up his sefer.
NIsht: no question of ‘tchum” as we are talking about a very large city.
In fairness, I think he was dealing with people who might use cars to come to shul- hence, much better to take public transport. However, the point is that there is no specific issur and one could rely on this, “beshaas hadechak”.
AviK: I don’t have access to R’Moshe’s teshuvo now, but this issue of “zilzul shabbos’ is -bemechilas kevod hatorah- a new invention. Certainly, this approach is not found amongst early Poskim. “Uvdo dechol” ,yes, but “zilzul Shabbos”? You can frame virtually anything as “zilzul Shabbos”. Going around in a colored shirt, or in shorts- may not be nice but is it ossur?? And why would an escalator not be “zilzul shobbos” as per your approach?? If you allow escalators and Shabbos elevators, I do not see why public transport- especially beshaas hadechak- would be ossur.
If you walk in the street, it is normal activity on any day. Unless you are going somewhere very specifically, you would not use public transport. When you use public transport, you are going to work or shopping. It I very unlikely that you would just take a “stroll” on the trains!
You could be taking the train to shul, to visit a sick person, to visit your mother, or any number of muttar things which are too far to walk.
I have no reason to look it up, as I have no idea if he is reliable anyhow. I would perhaps be curious to see the haskamos.
In fairness, I think he was dealing with people who might use cars to come to shul- hence, much better to take public transport. However, the point is that there is no specific issur and one could rely on this, “beshaas hadechak”.
You are now singing a completely different tune, as all along you seemed to be saying that it is an optional chumrah to not use trains and elevators, and now you finally admit that it is only in case of great need.
but this issue of “zilzul shabbos’ is -bemechilas kevod hatorah- a new invention
Just how new do you think it is?
It’s amazing how some of the greatest poskim have discussed how serious an issue zilzul Shabbos is, yet you have the chutzpah to dismiss it “bemechilas kevod hatorah” (sic).
If you allow escalators and Shabbos elevators, I do not see why public transport- especially beshaas hadechak- would be ossur.
We aren’t mattir elevators and escalators. Public transportation would probably be worse, though, because it’s more public, and because it is more likely to lead to the erosion of shmiras Shabbos, ch”v.
DaasYochid: Actually, I concur with you- if you are taking the subway to go a long way to go to shul (which is the subject of Rav Goldschmidt sefer), it would be muttor if you don’t pay. As far as visiting your mother or a sick person, there is not immediate need to visit that person on Shabbos. Because of the “maris ayin” aspect, traveling on a train on Shabbos is quite different than using the escalator or the Shabbos elevator and one cannot draw any parallel between trains and escalators and Shabbos elevators.
As far as “zilzul” Shabbos, can you show me any sources pre-this generation of Poskim? Chutzpah or no chutzpah, it is a legitimate question and don’t you think it deserves an answer?
Talk about puzzling, this last post is off the charts.
Actually, I concur with you- if you are taking the subway to go a long way to go to shul (which is the subject of Rav Goldschmidt sefer), it would be muttor if you don’t pay.
How are you concurring with me when I’ve said it’s assur? You’re not even concurring with your previous post.
As far as visiting your mother or a sick person, there is not immediate need to visit that person on Shabbos.
That completely missed the point. You haven’t explained why it’s maris ayin when nobody knows or should be making any assumptions as to where you’re going.
As far as “zilzul” Shabbos, can you show me any sources pre-this generation of Poskim?
Yes, in fact I have! The Shoel Umaishiv lived about a hundred and fifty years ago (I’m not sure when that teshuvah was written and don’t have time to check now).
The concept actually goes back to the gemara in Shabbos about a noisy mill. The Rema paskens that it’s assur to put wheat in before Shabbos despite the fact that no issur is being done.
Poskim in each generation are simply applying the concept to new applications as they come up.
Chutzpah or no chutzpah, it is a legitimate question and don’t you think it deserves an answer?
It is only legitimate if you ask respectfully, not assuming they made it up and are wrong. Nevertheless, I answered it, but you have a lot of thinking to do about how you approach the words of those much greater than you.
Rabbi of Berlin, you can also frame anything as uvda s’chol, immodest or moshav leitzim? Rav Yaakov Emden says this about petting a dog (Sheilot Yaavetz 17 at the end- http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1408&st=&pgnum=41). If you cannot tell what is normative look around and see what frum people are doing. As for the difference between an escalator and a train, an escalator is a staircase that moves. Starting it probably does not involve any Torah prohibition and everyone can see that it is constantly running. Moreover, the shul is a private place and the gabbaim can put up a sign stating that it runs constantly on Shabbat and Yom Tov.
DaasYochid: Escalators, Shabbos elevators, public transport trains and buses and other such contraptions-say a moving floor like you have in airports- “min hadin” should be muttor. One who uses it does not make any act, he does not push buttons, he does not move levers, he does nothing. I cannot see how this can be ossur “min hadin”. You have to show me what such an individual does to be under the heading of a “melocho”. However, because of external reasons- say “maris ayin”- certain of these actions-public transport- have been discouraged. Escalators or Shabbos elevators-not being subject to such problems- have been allowed.
The above is simple and makes sense. Anything else seems to be a chumroh.
I could not read the “shoeil umehsiv” in your excerpt-print too small, so I do not know whether he uses the term “zilzul Shabbos”.
However, these words of yours: “Poskim in each generation are applying the concept to new applications” explains your view. it also explains my view- that some of these are new concepts made anew and which have no basis in Halacha.
AviK; It is unclear from what you write whether you agree with the “machmirim” or the “meikilim”.
Please note that trains -and Shabbos elevators- also run all the time with no input by the user. Again, I challenge anyone to show me what melocho or toldoh or even a derabbonon is transgressed by using escalators.
You conveniently ignored the fact that it is in the gemara (no matter the terminology) according to some rishonim and the p’sak of the Rema, even though putting in the wheat before Shabbos is not a violation of the issur melocho.
So tell me, if you ignore the gemara and claim there is no precedent, why do you think so many poskim made up a “new” concept of zilzul Shabbos?
The words of the Shoel Umaishiv are clearer in the Chelkas Yaakov’s quote:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=909&st=&pgnum=231
???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??????, ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ???, ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? (???? ??? ????? ???) ??? ??? ???? ???, ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???, ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????, ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????
I know one choshuv Rav in Brooklyn who hitched a ride on Shabbos with a frum doctor who was returning home after delivering a baby in the hospital. I assume there was no zilzul Shabbos in that situation.
DaasYochid: Words and concepts are important. You cannot just arbitrarily develop a new concept that have no direct source in halocho. I will quote you a myriad sources where a word and/or concept is vitally important in halocho. Hence, if you cannot explain to me the concept of “zilzul Shabbos” and its origin, it weakens your case.
In the “wheat analogy” you ignore the fact that it is the human-Jew- who actually puts in the wheat. Additionally, it seems that this is a unique situation, as we all use Shabbos clocks routinely, although we have adjusted it before Shabbos.
As far as the chelkas Yaakov and his quote from the “shoeil umeishiv”,you prove my point. R”Yosef Shaul Nathanson does not give any concrete source for an issur except for the general aspect: “es is nisht shabbosdik “. Fine, I’ll accept that but this approach has is limitations.
DaasYochid: I checked the halochos of things done before Shabbos (siman 252) and the halocho that you mentioned-feeding grain to a mill before Shabbos, se’if 5. It is actually not as you quote it. First, the “mechaber” is “matter” it and even the Remo is leaning to allow it and only if there is a great noise “avsha milsa”,does he tend to asser (“lekatchila”). Secondly , it is only valid with a mill that belongs to a jew, not if it is a mill owed by a gentile. And the reason is obvious- when there is a lot of noise emanating from a Jewish-owned mill, there is a question of “ziluso leshabsa”_the exact words of the mishne berurah. So, on the one hand, it seems that a certain concept of “ziluso deshabbsa’ is a valid reason not to do something-but it is very circumscribed in its use, as even in the blatant case, there is plenty of reason to allow it.
I realize that,in modern times, starting with steam trains, the Poskim had difficulty explaining any issur Shabbos and hence, had to resort to rather imprecise reasons. Yet, “hovu delo losif olov”. Let us not add issurim based on flimsy reasons.
Rabbi of Berlin, the driver does melachot d’Oraita.
Cherybim, we cannot learn halachot from a mmaaseh rav (Baba Batra 130b). You do not know the reason why the “chosuv rav” thought that it was permissible to him (nor why the doctor drove himself instead of calling an ambulance driven by a goy, which is the preferred method – and, in fact, the nurses in my community ride to and from the hospital in a clearly marked van driven by someone who is not halachically Jewish).
I know one choshuv Rav in Brooklyn who hitched a ride on Shabbos with a frum doctor who was returning home after delivering a baby in the hospital. I assume there was no zilzul Shabbos in that situation.
I once carried on shabbos, outside the eruv.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/brooklyn-eruv#post-539689
I once carried on shabbos, outside the eruv.
Are you a choshuv Rav?
I know one choshuv Rav in Brooklyn
I know of several rabbonim in Brooklyn who are good at fooling some people into thinking they’re choshuv.
RoB, you insist on thinking you know better than the Shoel Umaishiv, R’ Moshe, the Chazon Ish, etc. I don’t see a point in continuing this with you.
DaasYochid: Fine. You also know that there are plenty of other views amongst the Poskim.
“we cannot learn halachot from a mmaaseh rav”
We do.
“You do not know the reason why they thought that it was permissible”
The doctor was allowed to l’chatchila and the Rav (a musmach of Rav Hutner and a m’chaber s’farim) knew that he could therefore return with him.
No, I don’t know of legitimate poskim who allow zilzul Shabbos l’chatchilah.
Specifically, trains, elevators, umbrellas, bicycles, etc. are only permitted b’mskom tzorech gadol if at all.
DaasYochid: I always respect your knowledge but what you write is just not true. As said numerous times on this thread, there are thousands of Shabbos elevators throughout the world and thousands of jews use it. Escalators are certainly less “chomur’ and a poster mentioned the “shemiras Shabbos” who is “matter” it. It is pretty safe to say that he checked with R”Shlomo Zalman Auerbach on this.
As far as bicycles, although there is no specific issur, adults have refrained from using this due to “uvdo dechol” or “shemo jetaken”.
On umbrellas, it was a major machlokes in the 18th and 19th century. Check the Nodah bejehuda, SH”T Tenina, teshuvo 30. Although he ultimately forbids opening an umbrella, he ends by saying , that, if the umbrella is already open, there is a “tsad hetter”. As I wrote, there were towns and Hungary who had open umbrellas at the ready to avoid the problem of “ohel”. Obviously there has to be an eiruv in the town.
As far as trains or other public transport, both the “Shoiel Umeshiv” and the “Chelkas Yaakov” struggle to find any real issur and they both end up by saying, well, it is just not “shabbosdik”.
I have no problem with this but , clearly, therev is no real issur de’oiraisa or even miderabbonon in all of these examples.
cherrybim: you are correct. As long as you don’t pay, it would be allowed to ride public transport, with the caveat that there could be “maris ayin”. For confirmation of this psak, check the sefer of the Rabbi of Moscow, R”Pinchas Goldschmidt, concerning subway rides in Moscow on Shabbos.
There are a number of free public transit routes.
Chebbybin, why do you think that you can disagree with the Gemara? As for your doctor and rav you do not know why the doctor was allowed lechatchila (as opposed to being driven by a goy) or why the rav thought that he could hitch. See Shemirat Shabbat k’Hilkata 32,78 that a healthy person cannot eat the leftovers of food that was cooked for a sick person on Shabbat.
Member, he ia a daat yachid.
AviK: Belated answer to your comment about the driver (of the train, I assume) doing a melocho “doiraisa”. This is irrelevant as the drivers of those trains are overwhelmingly gentiles. As with a mill owned by a gentile,it would be Muttor.
As far as the story of the doctor and the rov, I am surprised at your assertion that it is preferable to call an ambulance rather than drive a car. Clearly, “bemokom pikuach nefesh” one does not wait and the doctor drove himself to save time.
“why do you think that you can disagree with the Gemara? you do not know why the doctor was allowed lechatchila (as opposed to being driven by a goy) or why the rav thought that he could hitch.”
First: You certainly cannot paskin or bring proof just from a g’mara, as you have done, but as we see many times in the g’mara when there is a disagreement, a maeise Rav has precedence. There is also a flip side to this: ?”? ????? ?”? ??? ?”? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??’ ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?’ ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??.
However, being that both the doctor and Rav were ehrlich and talmedei chachomim; I don’t need to know any more. Perhaps since the doctor could come back l’chatchilla; the Rav may have been allowed to go with him. Maybe in a different situation, the Rav would not have done it. I don’t know nor do I care. I do know that in this situation, I would do the same since to me a maeise Rav carries weight whether l’kula or l’chumra. BTW, the Rav is not a kula type individual.
Ray,
That is where his reason was known. You only know that the doctor and rav are ehrlich and talmedei chachomim. You indeed do not need more in order to judge them favorably. However, you do need to know more in order to extrapolate to another situation. You should have asked them in a respectful manner. If they are truly ehrlich and talmedei chachomim they would have been happy to tell you. Not asking is intellectual laziness and kula shopping.
I should have asked them what?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.