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i noticed a trend in certain communities that they make kiddish on mashke is that proper
I used to eat by someone who did that lechatchila on Kiddush on Shabbos day. Never understood the inyan.
At least by Chabadniks, the rebbe was clear that the only time it was appropriate to make kiddush on mashke was simchas torah….otherwise, shabbos was strictly wine. Obviously, not all misnagdim will adhere to the rebbe’s shita
i noticed a trend with certain people that they make act like they had quite a lot mashke before the post on the CR
At night kiddush, we should not use chamar medina, what is considered a drink in the residing country, like beer or coffee as for the women who don’t daven is min Hatorah, see SA O’CH 271-272. In the morning, liquor, whisky, beer or coffee can be used. See SA O’CH 289,2. The problem by whisky is the shiur, the amount. MB says that the cups of everyone are metzuraf, accumulate to create a shiur, see MB SA O’CH 272 s’k 30. Havdala can be made on beer and coffee. See SA O’CH 292,2.
If no mashke available or at night, make kiddush on bread.
Yabia, did he fill the becher to the brim? Did he quaff the entire contents in one gulp?!?
I think it was a small shot glass.
Reb Eliezer elucidated the core issue.
Besides that I was under the impression it wasn’t possible to use mashke lechatchila for kiddush if you have wine available to use.
the maharsham indeed defends the minhag in chelek 1, 175. He aays this is based on shitas ha’taz, that you make a bracha achrona on a shot glass of yayin saraf (schnapps) even though it’s less than a revi”is, because it’s considered choshuv. So too by kidush, where chamar medina is acceptable, a shot glass of this sort of chamar medina is considered choshuv.
Some chasidim hold to do this bedavka, while others held that it eas because shnapps was more readily available than wine, but it was a bedieved
Only if you drink רוב כוס, and the cup must be a reviis. Making kiddush with a shot glass is like doing nothing at all. There’s no כוס
Shimon, that’s not what the maharsham is talking about. Rov hakos/machzik reviis is an issue that’s relevant to hilchos pesach. I tzaychuntzu’d the maharsham; check it out
If it’s choshuv enough for a bracha achrona, then a cup that holds it should be considered a kos too by the same logic
> Did he quaff the entire contents in one gulp?!?
this is against halakha even on wine. Beitza ~ 25, not one, not three, two.
AAQ. Friendly reminder we don’t pasken by Gemara. Please bring a source.
Just to clarify the OP. Is the context of the question whether it is permissible to use “other” options when wine is not available for one reason or another or whether these “other” options can be substituted even where wine is available.
Vhere, Sh’A O’Ch 170:8, Ashkenazim allow for the cup size.
But a fair point: Beitza 25 proves a general klal on derech eretz min haTorah – I don’t think anyone argues on that. Pratim are obviously culture-dependent (and some commentaries say – upon health and size of the person). We don’t leave food on a side of a plate for the waiter to eat, and (in America) are not careful about using appropriate utensils as Victorians did. So, you will have to ask your local Rav.
What I do not understand – do we judge by general culture of the times? by the observant community? your own corner? Does it depend who of the above will see you?
Friday night we should rather make kiddush on pas, bread than other mashke.
AAQ, i heard from rav belsky that the issue of eating from a big lerusah doesn’t apply to shabbos, because aderaba, we want to show enthusiasm for eating seudas shabbos…kidush isn’t any different. Actually, it’s probably a hiddur, the same way it’s a a hiddur to swallow an entire kazayis of matzah in one gulp
If we approach kiddush from the perspective of hiddur mitzvah, WHY do so many ehrliche yidden use a cheap and pedestrian Concord or Malaga sweet wine as distinct from one of the literally dozens of high quality varietals and vintages with good hashgacha readily available?
I like sweet wine.
Avira > from a big lerusah
There is something here, yes, but there should be some limits. Whole sugya in Beitza revolves around eating raw meat on Yom Tov. Nobody is suggesting that yom tov seuda overrrides derech eretz min haTorah.
googling related varying manners: not talking during the meal – prohibited by Taanis 5b, Orach Chayim 170:1 but Prisha says this is due to old custom of eating reclined
Reb E: Good point… I guess its all relative. I
Gadol, MB suggests that sweet wine is exempt from drinking in two gulps. Given popularity of bad sweet wines in US, maybe this is a heter used. So, lifnei ever – you give sweet wine to people without manners.
Historically, NY Jews were drinking NY wine and only sweet stuff grows in upstate NY. Then, RebE and the rest of the kahal acquired taste for this sxweet stuff.
St some point NY wine was monopolized by Manischewitz sweet and was subject to Rabbinical boycotts – that wa the appropriate time to use chalah in the evening and mashke in the morning.
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